Fe put-downs

[Poki]

All i got are the ones my ex likes to use, she relates them to other people but all revolve around what she deems important. Like she is projecting onto things.

I really have low hopes for her Ti. Was talking to her a while back and she made a commeent how you cant seem to grasp tone over im so we need to talk where we can hear each other. Well last night she said that her boyfriend was gonna be involved in my sons cub scout stuff as well and i said "I dont care" and even though we were at "on the phone" she misunderstood and got alll defensive like "i dont care if you care or not, i care so he is gonna remain a part". Again i replied "I dont care"and and she went on and on. The days i feel like argueing i would have flat out said...he is a good guy its you i cant stand to be around. I do hold my tongue again though. For awhile i wasnt.

 

[ms.behaving]

Real friends stab you in the front.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

I actually had been thinking of starting a thread like this, asking for specific examples. What spurred it (for me) is getting annoyed at Te’ers, mostly Te doms, and wondering what exactly the Fe correlate looks like.

The thing that I think Te and Fe have in common is that Te and Fe tend to have this attitude that the truth is self-evident. Thus, all the Te/Fe user thinks they need to do is nudge you in an oblique manner and you, too, will pick up on your own transgressions because you must have the same values as the Te/Fe user. Because their values are Right (with a capital R).

This is maddening to me when Fe users do it... but if I'm completely honest with myself, I've done this, too, when I've exercised my Te.

Based on what I've learned in this forum, I now try to remind myself that what seems so clearly and self-evidently true to my Te is not the only truth out there; and I shouldn't assume that my truth is self-evident to other people if only they thought about things a little harder. There is a certain arrogance in this position that I've worked hard to give up. I think I've somewhat succeeded, but during times of stress, I can regress.

It would be my hope that Fe-users will read this post and this thread and realize that what seems self-evident to you is not self-evident to everyone else. And if people disagree with your self-evident truths it's not necessarily because they are <insert pejorative word here>. It might be because they have different values that lead them in different directions.

 

[skylights]

My ENFJ 3w4 friend will do this. She's very judgmental and very clearly critical to someone's face when she doesn't like something. My ENFJ 2w3 coworker, on the other hand, will say things like "SOME people ________" very pointedly if he's pissed off - he's usually very positive otherwise and holds individual negative assessments back, though he will agree with you if you're talking negatively about someone else and he agrees. My ESFJ 2w1 mom is generally quieter about everything and will only make a remark, to private company, if someone is really rough. ISTP brother does it to people he feels comfortable with. I've asked him why he feels okay with it, and he basically makes the point that EW did above, which is that the truth is self-evident. He says that he'd rather you know and have the option to change it than you not realizing.

 

[Chiharu]

My ENTP brother does this a lot, with varying degrees of hilarity and assholeness.

 

[sculpting]

Of course she was trying tro do what was best for your son and to encourage him to be more on his own and fit in with the other children. They were supporting him and you acting in a socially conforming way. The impact of the interaction can be what you describe - invalidating your feelings or your actions as being "wrong" as they are not in the best interests of the collective whole (or something like that).



Right. I think that is exactly what can happen. The "no more special" part I think also may have something to do with a value structure that is aligned with trying to foster humility in the child. There is however a balance between humility, development of the ego, confidence and self esteem. There are also benefits to conforming socially, so some of that thinking is not all bad.

I think that the Fe types will tend to think that the Fi user's feelings are "wrong" at times. "You shouldn't feel that way or think that way and I think less of you because you do."

But there is an arrogance in assuming that one knows what is in the best interest of the collective whole or even my individual child.

It made an assumption that she understood more about my son and his needs than I did and that I needed to step down and allow her to take charge. Something I think that is often ignored is that this Fe nudge is an attempt at social dominance, albeit in a "sweet" way. It is just as much a power play as an overbearing Te dom who is bullying people.

That was the weird part-it FELT like a bunch of power hungry women who didnt have enough power to dominate adults in the real world, so they had instead found a place in which they could exert power over others. They used this as a way to get to treat other adults as though the adults were children. I think this is what made the ISTP very quickly explode and go bonkers on them-he innately had a better feel for the game they are playing than I did.

It also felt as though they were seeking to exclude parents from the educational environment of the children. This was very odd, given the mandate of parental involvement to help kids suceed.. The first day of school, they started discussing what a "good friend" does and how to be "respectful" of others, rather than focusing on teaching content...On one hand this was okay, as I know the little INTJ will memorize this stuff and turn into Te social rules, but it does bring validity to the notion of school not being all about "teaching" but having just a bit of "indoctrination" thrown in...

In retrospect, the school reminded me of the world Madeline L'Engle describes in a Wrinkle in Time, where the giant brain "IT" beats out a similar metrenome time that everyone must follow...it felt oppressive and soulless in spite of having a superifcial appearance of "ideal"and "accepting".

Oddly, the placed a huge emphasis on "diversity", yet all the kids were while middle class kids....it was like they played pretend at being open minded and embracing equality as an idealistic goal, but never had to come face to face with what that really means. It was the talk of platitudes.

At the new school, there is a constant "bubbling" and "boiling" for lack of a better term as you see the intermittant Fi flares, sorting of bouncing off of one another. It "feels" open and accepting- They dont even bother discussing diversity as the student population is 89% minority-they live diversity and the teachers are all biligual. About ten of the other parents routinelly eat with thier kids everyday in the morning-for the little guy, I quickly realized unconscious Se doesnt deal well with a loud lunchroom, so we sit together every morning outside of school and eat breakfast and read books or talk about science together.

We do something different-and it it is okay and not something to be ashamed of-that is what I wish the social norms crowd understood more clearly. We are happy and healthy and dont need to feel the same way as they do, to be happy and healthy.

We accept them, but I wish they would give us the same respect in turn.

Sorry, I am blabbering a bit today

 

[Poki]

My ENFJ 3w4 friend will do this. She's very judgmental and very clearly critical to someone's face when she doesn't like something. My ENFJ 2w3 coworker, on the other hand, will say things like "SOME people ________" very pointedly if he's pissed off - he's usually very positive otherwise and holds individual negative assessments back, though he will agree with you if you're talking negatively about someone else and he agrees. My ESFJ 2w1 mom is generally quieter about everything and will only make a remark, to private company, if someone is really rough. ISTP brother does it to people he feels comfortable with. I've asked him why he feels okay with it, and he basically makes the point that EW did above, which is that the truth is self-evident. He says that he'd rather you know and have the option to change it than you not realizing.

I am only like this when I am tired of someone and have tried to get away, but for some reason they wont let me. I dont do this on an everyday basis. My goal is to "LEAVE ME THE F ALONE!!!!" I dont deal with people I dont want to.

 

[sculpting]

Real friends stab you in the front.

Is that was happens when an ENFJ goes totally bonkers and posts 15 flaming posts on your facebook wall in ten minutes because they dont agree with your political values? She had always been very nice in the past and I adore her and family-but the things she said were so inflammatory and venemous....they were such personal attacks just out of the blue. I figured it meant she must hate me now to say such things.

 

[Poki]

Is that was happens when an ENFJ goes totally bonkers and posts 15 flaming posts on your facebook wall in ten minutes because they dont agree with your political values? She had always been very nice in the past and I adore her and family-but the things she said were so inflammatory and venemous....they were such personal attacks just out of the blue. I figured it meant she must hate me now to say such things.

From my experience they dont think they hate you...they want you to change so they can accept. EJs have a way they want you to be and they will push it on you projecting there opinion and view onto you.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Is it because the Te caveman approach would be invalidating (please fill in the more precise word ) to a Ti user? I would hear the Te user and go "meh, bob is being a jackass again." It might even be a bit funny. When I hear the Fe user, it is much closer to heart-as though they wiped out the value I expressed as being worthless, and substituted thier own as having more value-thus invalidating the in.

A specific example (a long one, my apologies)-my little one recently started Kindergarten. as a baby INTJ, he was very overwhelmed and would just stand and cry-his little Fi was so overwhelmed and he couldnt figure out a Te action plan-he didnt know what to DO yet-he needed to watch the system a bit and get a hang of the routine.

My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.

The underlined ^^ part is the projection error on my part-it assumes she is an Fi user. Knowing what I know, I dimissed the anger, tried to evaluate the decision as a desire to provide continuity for all the children and just let it go.

We spent three days at this very heavy Fe school, seeing many examples of this same type of behavior. I tried to go with the flow, but ISTP daddy finally snapped and dropped the F-bomb on one of the cross walk ladies. He described them as being (my apologies and no offense intended) "Fucking retarded Nazis" as they just kept trying to enforce rules that were illogical to him, so he requested we move the little guy to a local charter school.

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

(He ended up in the local charter school which is pretty Fi heavy. The front lobby is painted silver, kelly green, orange sherbet, off yellow, burgundy, and pink in long vertical stripes a foot wide. It is crazy and I cant pick up Fe from anyone.)

That was the weird part-it FELT like a bunch of power hungry women who didnt have enough power to dominate adults in the real world, so they had instead found a place in which they could exert power over others. They used this as a way to get to treat other adults as though the adults were children. I think this is what made the ISTP very quickly explode and go bonkers on them-he innately had a better feel for the game they are playing than I did.


In retrospect, the school reminded me of the world Madeline L'Engle describes in a Wrinkle in Time, where the giant brain "IT" beats out a similar metrenome time that everyone must follow...it felt oppressive and soulless in spite of having a superifcial appearance of "ideal"and "accepting".

I think most schools are typically just insanely Je heavy. There’s a really (really) stifling one-size-fits-all mentality that trickles down from the top and drowns out any amount of thinking or feeling on an individual level (no one is special! ). It’s a whole other topic, but in short, I think most schools are a perfect place to find examples of Je gone wrong.

I’m going to guess the woman didn’t even really hear the question as “Can I sit with my son?” so much as she heard “Is it okay for parents to sit with their children while their children eat?” I’m not sure how you asked- whether or not you included something like “because it’s the first day of school, he’s feeling overwhelmed and I think it’s really important for his first impression of school experience to be a positive one- I think that sitting with him while he eats will go a long way in helping him feel less overwhelmed, and the faster we can achieve him feeling secure in this environment the better”- but immediate variables aren’t really as obvious to Je’ers as they are to Ji’ers. The details that immediately come up for Je are more long-term variables; she may have felt like she was being asked if it’s okay to set a precedent of parents being able to sit with their children while they’re children eat (and so- even though there were empty tables there- it’s possible the first ‘detail’ she accessed was having previously had the problem of there not being enough seats because of parents staying with their children, and to stop that from happening again her focus was on making sure parents don’t do it in the first place). Though I do agree that a large part of the problem is a messed up hierarchy of ‘authority’ and bizarre little power games (I agree with what you said, and I’ve long used L’Engle’s stories to describe what I hate most about public education myself), part of it also is being oblivious to immediate details because the focus is on preventing problems experienced before.

In general, a big problem I’ve had with schools is that any amount of that^ kind of explaining (if they even let you say that much in the first place without cutting you off) goes nowhere- like you just get a blank expression, and they repeat what they said in the first place. And the problem often extends beyond the single person, like the people enforcing certain rules are rarely the ones who get any say in deciding what they are. With the example in the quote above (from yesterday), in that situation I can see myself trying to explain (in the way I just mentioned) and if that doesn’t work then I’d be put off but it wouldn’t really hurt my feelings; I’d just think she was a mindless drone and be secretly annoyed my child had to treat this woman like ‘authority’ [though if she looked stressed- instead of giving me a big weird (subtext:fake) smile- I wouldn’t assume it’s thoughtlessness so much as she just can’t handle taking immediate variables into account at the moment because there’s too much pressure for her to get things done a certain way and I’d feel some compassion for her…. but I’d also feel contempt for the system that doesn’t allow for any individuality of any kind].

I’m not really sure how to describe what happens when dealing with Te’ers. It’s not exactly feeling invalidated. Hopefully I’ll find time today to get back to that. [And thanks for that explanation of what it feels like to react to Fe!]


eta: forgot to mention! I bolded "please fill in the precise word" because I thought it was funny. *high fives for effective cross type communication* (and successfully appealing to Ti.)

more eta:
I think that the projection error I tend to make myself with Te’ers is that to dismiss someone else’s pov outright- without putting much thought into what parts could be true and/or why certain aspects of what they said don’t work for me- I’d have to have absolutely no regard for that person’s judgment. In Z Buck’s universe, the extent to which someone tries to understand where another person is coming from is the extent to which they respect the other person’s judgment. So it’s like they might as well flat out be saying “You’re ideas don’t even BEGIN to be important as mine, and not even because of their inherent strength but because I am just inherently more important! Anything I say (no matter how stupid it is) should be given more weight! EVERYONE SHOULD BOW DOWN TO ME! All I need to do to prove this is to act like a caveman and get aggressive with insults!” And I wouldn’t say it hurts my feelings, but rather feels like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and makes it difficult to think. When Fe gets out of control in someone, it *sorta* has the same affect- but I can roll my eyes at it and dismiss it as thoughtlessness. It really is like “Pfft. Whatever.” But with Te, it’s overwhelming. And utterly confounding/stunning because I need things to make sense. It’s like watching someone running over the finish line last and then jumping up and down in excitement because they won- and it seems like the only reason others go along with it is because they get angry and abusive with language when you try to explain how they didn’t actually win. [In case it needs mentioning- that’s Te at its worst, and I do realize it’s coming from the pov of someone who doesn’t ‘get’ Te goals.]

I can deal with the blank expression- when the immediate details I’m trying to point out don’t seem to apply to the situation (because they’re focus on long-term details, which is why it seems to me like they’re just repeating the same thing over and over)- because then it’s just a matter of figuring out how to marry the two extremes for the sake of coming up with the best resolution (and really- I think this is often ideal, as Ti’ers can lose sight of long term details as easily as Te’ers can lose sight of immediate details, so a marriage of the two can give the most well rounded solution). I’m fairly certain I must draw the equivalent blank Fe expression at not understanding how Fi details are supposed to be relevant, at times. But when a Te’er aggressively refuses any immediate details, the position they’re pushing is full of obvious flaws but they refuse to listen to anything and they’re getting so angry at someone else even trying to have a say that they mindlessly throw insults- that’s when it starts feeling like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and it gets difficult to think. I could always tell when my eNTJ was getting near this point. Sometimes he was really good about being patient and listening- but as soon as he started turning pale and furrowing his eyebrows I knew I was getting into Te caveman territory and I’d have to back off or he’d just start throwing insults.

I was really hoping to hear more specific example in this thread of the Fe equivalent. The explanation highlander gave was helpful- but the problem is that it’s vague and I could come up with specific examples on both ends of the spectrum which seem to fit that description (where a Fi’er perceives it that way because they aren’t willing to meet halfway- but also I can see it applying to a Fe’er being a jerk….I’d need to hear a specific dialogue example).

The examples in the op almost seem more like playfulness being taken the wrong way (‘the eighties called and they want their pink polo shirt back’), but it really depends on the context. Sometimes Fe’ers say mean things to vent and deny that’s what’s going on (I think ENTPs are the worst at this, but anyway).

 

[Poki]

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), "

To me this comes across as blah, blah, blah...I am trying to be protected and this is nothing more then "fluff". "You need to follow the rules" isnt Te rule setting. But again, I am not Fi so while I see that this stuff bothers Fi and this is how you comfort Fi, it comes across completely different for me. So for me this would be worded differently and "beautiful little star" wouldnt ever come out of my mouth.

the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

the "lets all be friends" crap rubs me the wrong way as well. "Lets be civil and respect each other". is good. This isnt Fe. Fe says this is how things are done and lays it out. Lets be civil and respectful isnt telling you what you actually need to do.


For me everything starts out with what happend, followed by a discussion of the situation and then for things like school..."you need to follow the rules" or people.."you need to respect other people" Rules apply to everyone, respect is individual.


I am gonna stay out of Fi validation and Ti devaluation because both Fi and Ti do the same thing, just in different ways. Fi is blind to what it does and calls it "being who you are and your individual star" when it comes to devaluation. Just as Ti can be.

 

[Poki]

Fe put down....My ex made the comment..."I didnt ask to be your mom". My comeback..."or your dads mom, or your friends mom...you know what...no one asks you to be there mom, you just have this need to tell people how they should run there life. Thats why your dad doesnt even tell when he buys something, because he is tired of your lip"

 

[Z Buck McFate]

To me this comes across as blah, blah, blah...I am trying to be protected and this is nothing more then "fluff". "You need to follow the rules" isnt Te rule setting. But again, I am not Fi so while I see that this stuff bothers F and this is how you comfort Fi, it comes across completely different for me. So for me this would be worded differently and "beautiful little star" wouldnt ever come out of my mouth.

Yeah, I agree with this in that 'beautiful little star' is (unfortunately) likely going to go in one ear and out the other. I agree with the premise of the 'beautiful little star' precept- that ideally education SHOULD make kids tap into their inner beautiful little star- but it's put in a language that isn't palatable to the Fe school system borg. I'd word it differently to make things more palatable, to try to explain how what I immediately want IS in fact part of the 'education' goal that benefits everyone.

 

[Poki]

Fe put down....My ex made the comment..."I didnt ask to be your mom". My comeback..."or your dads mom, or your friends mom...you know what...no one asks you to be there mom, you just have this need to tell people how they should run there life. Thats why your dad doesnt even tell when he buys something, because he is tired of your lip"

and when it got bad my next response would have been..."thats one of the reasons I divorced your ass, I wasnt looking for a mom." Those are Ti put downs.

 

[garbage]

What I have noticed though, is that it seems to be an Fe user thing. For instance, I don't ever see many Fi users doing it, except on some occasions I may see ESFP's doing it. I have never seen one ENFP or an INTJ do this in my entire life.

Please explain the anomaly here.

 

[ms.behaving]

Is that was happens when an ENFJ goes totally bonkers and posts 15 flaming posts on your facebook wall in ten minutes because they dont agree with your political values? She had always been very nice in the past and I adore her and family-but the things she said were so inflammatory and venemous....they were such personal attacks just out of the blue. I figured it meant she must hate me now to say such things.

I'd like to believe Fe has a little more self-control and discretion than that. And frankly, I don't want to be the one to throw Fe in a box, or throw it to the wind, or feed it to the wolves. I personally do not do the "cause a scene" public attacks on people. If we are in a more private setting, I can get pretty passionate, it's true. I have a strict personal policy of not stabbing friends or family in the back. I will confront them.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I'd like to believe Fe has a little more self-control and discretion than that. And frankly, I don't want to be the one to throw Fe in a box, or throw it to the wind, or feed it to the wolves. I personally do not do the "cause a scene" public attacks on people. If we are in a more private setting, I can get pretty passionate, it's true. I have a strict personal policy of not stabbing friends or family in the back. I will confront them.

I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

 

[Within]

Personally I only have one major experience with what you refer to as a 'Fe put-down' it basically consists of a ENFP guy that consciously made straw-man arguments as well as circulars ones against me in order to please the crowd, quite humiliating. Interruptions is another tool of this particular flavor of asinine.

One or two years later when I found myself located in a position to replay the favor. I committed to it fully, and relentlessly.

Having a near to perfect memory regarding such events can be both a curse and a blessing, insects trapped in amber.

In this particular case I made myself into god inside this sphere of a perfect moment. Orgasmically I felt a surge of Dumas-esque energy surge through my spine as I witnessed the utter destruction of my enemy.

Other events can not possibly equal to that one, as is why better referred to as attempted 'Fe put-downs', most of which are as easily flipped on themselves as a contorting spastic limb.

This tug of war has no winners, well it does but it's by marginal. The judge being the drooling troglodyte audience observing amber harden.

That says enough about the actual context of the issue at hand, it's no bigger issue than your pride makes it out to be.

 

[Lexicon]

I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

I've experienced a VERY unhealthy ENFJ doing this^ very thing-- to me, as well as his friends, & his enemies. It's breaking a person down through sensationalized, excessive shame.. it's.. well, pathetic & retarded. Unfortunately, if it's done to someone in such a way that it plays on that individual's deepest insecurities- AND it happens to be someone that the person has placed a lot of emotional trust in- then it can be quite damaging. It's an ugly thing to watch, and really consider, especially as a fellow Fe user. I could never do that to someone. It sickens me.

 

[ms.behaving]

I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

I know stress isn't pretty on Fe. I've learned when Fe becomes a maniac, it would mean a lot if you would just say, "I'm sorry." Or say something that indicates you care about what happened.