• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Fe put-downs

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
A lot of those things sound like something that people who subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes say, which is not a type thing or cognitive function thing.

Not sure if I agree...

I think heavy Si users (SJs) tend to subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes more readily...

I actually think Si and Fe probably have the strongest "behavior-conformity" bents, and, as such, ESFJs are the type most prone to making "behavior-conforming" judgments (my mom is an ESFJ, and she's totally like this -- it shocks me whenever she does it [I can't believe she can honestly have that sentiment and not find it absurd]; my ex's mom is an ESFJ, and she was totally like this; and this pretty much fits the general ESFJ description).

I don't know if it's Fe related. Just last night I was watching two ESTJs trade insults over several hours over what each were wearing. Although in this context it was meant as friendly ribbing and no real offence was meant.

...which brings me to this point, which I largely agree with, as I've seen many people that believe, and I've seen it firsthand myself, that ESTJs often have a very strong "behavior-conformity" bent (and find it odd, since ESTJs aren't regular Fe-users). I would, as I pointed to above, though, say it has to do with Si beliefs about what is appropriate/proper/acceptable and what is not. They're also inferior Fi, so it's not like they have as strong/conscious an inclination as FPs (and even many INTJs [because of dominant Si, ISTJs tend to have a more similar "behavior-conformity" vibe]) to react strongly against behaviors that offend/attempt to suppress the individual (Fi) nature of a human being.

On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Fixed.

That's what they try to do.

But they can go fuck themselves.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
One example I can come up with is that you say something in a conversation and afterwards the Fe'er criticizes you for saying what you said - this one little thing - the apparent social atrocity. You're like - I was just making conversation and it was an offhand comment - what's the big deal? The Fe'er then expands this single instance into a broader overall criticism of your social skills or how you act in a broader way.

Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
:D Damn, tertiary Fi is on a roll these days :ninja:
 
A

Anew Leaf

Guest
One example I can come up with is that you say something in a conversation and afterwards the Fe'er criticizes you for saying what you said - this one little thing - the apparent social atrocity. You're like - I was just making conversation and it was an offhand comment - what's the big deal? The Fe'er then expands this single instance into a broader overall criticism of your social skills or how you act in a broader way.

Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

:sipsteadelicately:
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I wonder if it isn't...I dunno, a form of humour? That gets experienced as a slight? I can imagine that Fe-users would find it very amusing to notice those things that are outside the realm of what is generally considered the norm in society. Granted, if it makes them feel uncomfortable, it will likely be a projection of their uncomfortableness...but Ive seen Fe-users who are comfortable in their own skin just be amused by the Fe-irony present in whatever it is the other person is doing that is outside the social norm.

:sick:

One example I can come up with is that you say something in a conversation and afterwards the Fe'er criticizes you for saying what you said - this one little thing - the apparent social atrocity. You're like - I was just making conversation and it was an offhand comment - what's the big deal? The Fe'er then expands this single instance into a broader overall criticism of your social skills or how you act in a broader way.

Yes.

You should see the fucking ENTPs in vent.

:rolleyes:

Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

+1 for this, and +1 for the above.

:D Damn, tertiary Fi is on a roll these days :ninja:

It's the deluxe version, my dear.

We're not all afraid of our tertiary.

:wink:
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Clearly. Is there an upgrade still? :alttongue:
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Fe is just working with layers and layers of preference structure. the good/bad balancing act that's attached to meanings rather than effects. meanings are ideas that circulate among us, that bind our communication despite its invisibleness, the general knowledge that we're always connected to because it's always happening all around us that helps us guess what the likely meaning of the actual is in a way that is, again, socially binding. sharing conditions of perception and identifying with the perceiver's goal rather than with the effects of the direct observable experience from our own perspective.

how is this similar to Te? Te treats the meanings as if they're real things. it tries to more precisely measure the ideas. it thinks the ideas can be objectified and treated statistically, defined within proper ranges, and that thusly it is less important to rely on listening to how those meanings are performed and what they feel like when you wear them in various social spaces. again, a subtle distinction between what they feel like when you wear them in various social spaces and what YOU feel like when you wear them in various social spaces. Fe/Fi. with Fi, you're staying with your experience rather than watching how meanings territorialize that experience.

Je is about prediction, about intention, that's simply based on previous experience in a way that is learned through performing it but not through analyzing the effects of the particular situation and your contribution to it. you learn it like you learn grammar. you're constantly mirroring and performing it, like ghost notes, even when you're not. it habituates without a reflexive process where a person might consider other ways of acting and reformulate stories to organize how emotional experiences and personal values interact.

either way, we're the grammar police. Ni is a little different than Si in this regard in that it's maybe less immediately prescriptive, because we're more interested in seeing how a change aggregates more globally, which means we'd like a variety of interrelated contexts of the same class to blend together to see what kind of conceptual predictive model we can make (aka typology in general).
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
+1 for this, and +1 for the above.

They can also get disproportionately upset and defensive if you make observations about them doing something insensitive or rude.
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
2,126
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
This entire thread seems ridiculous at worst and misguided at best... It's a bunch of INTJs complaining about how their ESFJ mothers forced them to wear their Sunday best to grandpas when they didn't want to, or how mom got mad they didn't say please and thank you... Oh the horror of your horribly unique situation growing up! Peoples mothers never try to control their children! Smart socially slow kids are always geniuses and their mothers are rule following idiots... Yep :p (sarcasta bowl!).

Now full disclosure: my mother is ESFJ, and growing up our nuclear family was ISTP, INFJ, ISFP. So I totally understand how crazy ESFJs can come across with "tyrant Fe". But that's ridiculous because we all know STJs do this too and we all know NFJs don't do this as much. So what I've taken this entire post to say is that this isn't about the Fe function at all. It's about SJs. Fe in my mind is a vibe-o-meter that picks up external cues of how everyone and thing feels. It INCLUDES value judgments, but it isn't the ONLY thing! Fe's definitely then have the ability to influence others feelings and value judgments, but it isn't always an overt tyrannical attempt at shoving rules down your throat. The desire to then force these things onto others must be slightly something else...
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This entire thread seems ridiculous at worst and misguided at best... It's a bunch of INTJs complaining about how their ESFJ mothers forced them to wear their Sunday best to grandpas when they didn't want to, or how mom got mad they didn't say please and thank you... Oh the horror of your horribly unique situation growing up! Peoples mothers never try to control their children! Smart socially slow kids are always geniuses and their mothers are rule following idiots... Yep :p (sarcasta bowl!).

Now full disclosure: my mother is ESFJ, and growing up our nuclear family was ISTP, INFJ, ISFP. So I totally understand how crazy ESFJs can come across with "tyrant Fe". But that's ridiculous because we all know STJs do this too and we all know NFJs don't do this as much. So what I've taken this entire post to say is that this isn't about the Fe function at all. It's about SJs. Fe in my mind is a vibe-o-meter that picks up external cues of how everyone and thing feels. It INCLUDES value judgments, but it isn't the ONLY thing! Fe's definitely then have the ability to influence others feelings and value judgments, but it isn't always an overt tyrannical attempt at shoving rules down your throat. The desire to then force these things onto others must be slightly something else...

My mom was an NF and about the furthest you could get from an SJ as humanly possible. I also don't think this has anything to do with tyrannical rules or judgments. I would however say that the biggest flaw in SFJ parenting relates to this exact thing because it involves at a deep level not accepting the child for who they are.
 
W

WALMART

Guest
I highly doubt it is Fe that causes this.


But maybe, in a roundabout nineteen-different-conditions type thing, as is most of MBTI.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This entire thread seems ridiculous at worst and misguided at best... It's a bunch of INTJs complaining about how their ESFJ mothers forced them to wear their Sunday best to grandpas when they didn't want to, or how mom got mad they didn't say please and thank you... Oh the horror of your horribly unique situation growing up! Peoples mothers never try to control their children! Smart socially slow kids are always geniuses and their mothers are rule following idiots... Yep :p (sarcasta bowl!).
Now full disclosure: my mother is ESFJ, and growing up our nuclear family was ISTP, INFJ, ISFP. So I totally understand how crazy ESFJs can come across with "tyrant Fe". But that's ridiculous because we all know STJs do this too and we all know NFJs don't do this as much. So what I've taken this entire post to say is that this isn't about the Fe function at all. It's about SJs. Fe in my mind is a vibe-o-meter that picks up external cues of how everyone and thing feels. It INCLUDES value judgments, but it isn't the ONLY thing! Fe's definitely then have the ability to influence others feelings and value judgments, but it isn't always an overt tyrannical attempt at shoving rules down your throat. The desire to then force these things onto others must be slightly something else...

actually, ENFJs and ESTPs are the main culprits in my opinion (extrovert directing Fe types are the worst at it)
oh, and STJs do not do this. they can enforce objective rules tyrannically, but they don't do this so much with social conventions. an STJ is more likely to think 'huh? he's weird. whatever' but then go back to whatever they were doing without feeling compelled to say anything.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
I went through this realization that acting, at its heart, is the ability to manipulate your own emotions. That's what Fe is all about.
~Scarlett Johansson
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Dammit why do you have to be such a round peg....give up....join us.....join the squares!

Oddly enough if I were to say anything Fe related that was stated in this thread; it is often out of jest or irony and anyone who knows me fairly well understands this.

If I meet people who genuinely subscribe to this particular.....'standard' im generally appalled and amused in equal measure....mainly at the idea that someone could actually be serious about such unimportant shite or that they think it is their duty to supress anything out of the ordinary, whatever that means...

Of course im also a notorious hypocrete what with my whole honesty complex whereby I talk behind a person's back about their idiosyncracies that bother me...but then I let them know anyhow, usually in jest, because being bothered by such small habits is both hilarious and stupid of me.

Going by the amount of people who call me weird, mad and on one occasion, 'downright insane', at my clubs I frequent, im not really that bothered most of the time. If anything I enjoy the fact that people around me are comfortable enough in my prescence that they can be straight with me about such things.

I believe throughout my life very few people ever hid problems they had with me, which I find occasionally upsetting but usually refreshing and useful.
 

The Great One

New member
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
3,439
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
6w7
VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.


.

Yes, the situations piss me off as well. I'm glad to see that someone else has made this correlation as well.

Unless I was playfully teasing a friend with whom I know I can safely joke around, I can't imagine why I'd say anything like the examples above. I don't think I even have those thoughts to begin with. A few of my uncles and cousins derive great amusement from people-watching and laughing at anything they find unusual, but this bothers me a lot. I'm sure that if they didn't know me, they'd be making fun of me, too.

I do work with an ESFJ woman who has made snarky comments about my clothing and my boyfriend, which I find odd (as she claims to adore everything subversive and strange). However, I don't think this has to do with her personality type as much as it does her insecurity.

Could you give better examples of this? I'm really interested. The examples in the OP, to me, just sound like "people being mean" (in a playful way to disguise their insecurity). Are these deemed "Fe" only because they are judging from the 'social norm'?

It's more of bitch more that a lot of the Fe users make. They mostly do it when they are upset. I've also noticed that Fe put downs are especially common in the types that have a strong 3w2 fix.

The OP's examples remind me more of the ISTJ's I grew up around, so if that is Fe at all (since the FJ's don't seem to be identifying with it), then it might be Trickster, which would try to double bind the person they are criticizing, with the prospect of being weird, or "gay", which from a traditional homophobic perspective is a kind of "weird".
Si figures in this as well, and the offending behavior likely somehow threatens their vulnerable tertiary Fi sense of ethics. (And for an ESFP, it would be Witch, which would be a critical attack for when the "parental" authority of their aux. Fi is negated, but I don't think they would really bother with the types of examples the OP gave).

INTJ and ENFP would work just like ISTJ and ESFP, respectively (Fe in the same archetypal position), but I think with them, it is being N that allows them to accept things being out of the norm more, so that's probably why you never heard them doing it.

If not, then this might not always be something connected with type or functions.

There is some kind of connection here, and I'm going to find out what it is.

On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Thank you sir. I could not have said it better myself.

actually, ENFJs and ESTPs are the main culprits in my opinion (extrovert directing Fe types are the worst at it)
oh, and STJs do not do this. they can enforce objective rules tyrannically, but they don't do this so much with social conventions. an STJ is more likely to think 'huh? he's weird. whatever' but then go back to whatever they were doing without feeling compelled to say anything.

I've noticed that it's surprisingly not that common in the INFJ though.
 

jixmixfix

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
4,278
I laughed at a girl once because she travels and hour and half to go to indigo. That sounds more like a te put down maybe? I just couldent believe someone who would trvael that far to go to a bookstore. Sjs in general or even js always like to throw their worldview at you thinking its what you should be doing.
 

ms.behaving

New member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
217
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Instinctual Variant
so
I work with the most ESFJ woman I can imagine existing, and she has done things like this to me several times. The one that comes to mind immediately is one day she looked at my feet while we were working and cracked up laughing and she was then like "oh sorry, i was distracted by those shoes" and just kept kind of halfway trying to work and halfway laughing at me.

She is actually someone that I generally like quite a lot, but man, those kind of "you will be ridiculed for not fitting into the box that society has built for you" moments are irritating.

Come now, where's your sense of humor?
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
I find Fe can be like a butcher cleaver used to chop off a gangrenous limb.

Better to not be the limb, or else it will slay you where you stand; to be discarded without remorse.

Ive always thought there was a cold and calculating side to Fe that most dont talk about, but I recognise it in myself from time to time, it's the part of me that would, (in a crisis), evaluate who was worth saving and why and which course of action would benefit the majority.
 
Top