Cognitive processes in general

[Grublet]

I've been on http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/ and I've been doing some thinking. From what I understand, whether or not the person is an introvert or extrovert doesn't affect their dominant function. Maybe I'm wrong but I think it's possible for someone with a dominant extroverted function to be drained by people on a personal level. This has caused me some confusion because I've always associated lead extroverted function types with being people people. Also, I feel the online tests that distinguish between thinkers and feelers don't make sense, because everyone is thinking and feeling, what matters is how much of one you are and that functions order in the stack. The distinguishing between judging and perceiving doesn't make sense either because half the functions are judging (T/F) and the other are perceiving (S/N). As such, I've stopped relying on online tests to assess my own Myers Briggs type; most of them get it completely wrong and only serve to confuse new people like me. What matters more is your function order, the abbreviations like ENTP or INTJ don't mean much to how you actually process things. I've also noticed that most MBTI tests use language that attempts to steer the test taker towards a certain answer, or is ambiguous enough that the answer could always be different; this isn't good for getting accurate results. Anyway those are my current thoughts on the cognitive functions and their application to MBTI, please correct me if I got anything wrong.

 

[INTP]

extraversion/introversion in typology doesent mean the same thing that they do in common language or in big5/eysenck etc. they do however correlate quite much, but you can be E in jungian typology(including the dummy versions like MBTI), but I according to big 5.

whether you are I or E in typology is about whether your dom function is introverted or extraverted.

while E/I in big5/common language means to be assertive, dominant, outgoing etc. in typology it means whether your strongest function(S, T, F or N) has an abstracting(trying to remove irrelevant, introverted movement of libido) or expanding(trying to add to things in external world, extraverted movement of libido) attitude. when it comes to functions and their orientation, one should understand these little things about the basics:

One’s psychological orientation determines how one sees and interprets reality. In Jung’s model of typology, a thinking attitude is oriented by the principle of logic; a sensation attitude is oriented by the direct perception of concrete facts; intuition orients itself to future possibilities; and feeling is governed by subjective worth. Each of these attitudes may operate in an introverted or extraverted way.

(people often use the term orientation in MBTI terms meaning E or I, but its not obviously meant that way in the quote)

another way to look at these is(which i prefer, since its more clear):

T = principle of logic
F = principle of value
S = principle of perceived facts
N = principle of perceived possibilities(possibilities acquired by the use of logic should be excluded)

now whether a function is extraverted or introverted is really just about whether you abstract based on those principles above, or add according to those principles.

 

[Grublet]

It's just a thought, but I think introversion or extroversion as a whole may be derived from the feeling process. As I understand it, Fe users are more apt to accommodate others, so this could manifest as extroversion. I've talked to several Fi users that would rather not have to deal with other people in an ideal situation.

 

[skylights]

I think there's a big difference between a cognitive extravert and a social extravert. Personally I'm a strong cognitive extravert, meaning I get very energized from focusing on things outside of myself and I get very drained by cutting myself off from external information and having to circulate ideas in my head. But I'm a weak social extravert - probably easiest classified as an ambivert - because social situations energize and drain me by turn. In terms of functions, you are correct; social orientation has little to do with cognitive orientation.

As for J/P, that depends on whether you apply Judging to your external environment. Js are generally organized and time aware because they assert control over their external environment (both people and objects) to help achieve their goals. It's an interesting oddity, the dominant Judger who is technically a Perceiver in MBTI - an ISTP, for example, who is Ti dominant but a P. All introverts in MBTI have this J/P switch, which is actually changed in Socionics (MBTI ISTP generally corresponds with Socionics ISTj). IMO, you can see how they are more "judgy" in certain areas - IxTPs are often very picky about the organization of their personal belongings, for example, despite not being very "organized" in general, and IxFPs are often very assertive about certain personal beliefs, despite being fairly "flexible" in general.

As for online tests, most of them are extremely simplistic. I like cognitive functions oriented quizzes like http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/cog_jung.pl better, but IMO, nothing beats self-study.

 

[Eric B]

Generally, a cognitive introvert or extravert will likely be a social introvert or extrovert, through the Interaction Styles, which are tied to I/E. Those energized by the external world will naturally tend to be more outgoing, and those energized by the inner world will be more reserved.
Part of the problem is the generalization of some of the terms, such as “assertive” (and I don't think “dominant” is an extraversion trait, or if Big 5 has it as one, then, it is misleading).

There are, of course, reasons why an I or an E might not act those ways. Aside from personal experience, there are even other things built into type. Like the other social temperament factor people vs task focus (basically, Agreeableness). That's both directing/informing, and structure/motive, and ties to both T/F and J/P.
A social or cognitive extrovert who is task focused will ultimately be focused more on his own goals than the outer world of people. His dominant function will engage the outer world, but he might not necessarily make him all gregarious with people.
Then, Cooperative/Pragmatic is like another level of expressive/reserved. An introvert who is pragmatic will become assertive at times when pushing something that “works”.

 

[Grublet]

As for online tests, most of them are extremely simplistic. I like cognitive functions oriented quizzes like http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/cog_jung.pl better, but IMO, nothing beats self-study.

I got these results:

Would these results be more indicative of INTP?

 

[Grublet]

It seems most of the personality tests don't distinguish between introverted and extroverted functions. If I answer any of the obvious feeling questions positively, I always end up ENFP even though ENFP's are Fi and the questions are geared more towards Fe users ("I do more for others than myself" et cetera).

 

[skylights]

It seems most of the personality tests don't distinguish between introverted and extroverted functions. If I answer any of the obvious feeling questions positively, I always end up ENFP even though ENFP's are Fi and the questions are geared more towards Fe users ("I do more for others than myself" et cetera).

Haha, yeah. I end up ENFJ often even though I'm definitely FP.

 

[INTP]

It seems most of the personality tests don't distinguish between introverted and extroverted functions. If I answer any of the obvious feeling questions positively, I always end up ENFP even though ENFP's are Fi and the questions are geared more towards Fe users ("I do more for others than myself" et cetera).

if a test forces 8 functions over you, the extraversion and introversion of functions are wrong by definition.

for example:

As a result of the general attitude of extraversion, thinking is orientated by the object and objective data. This orientation of thinking produces a noticeable peculiarity.

Thinking in general is fed from two sources, firstly from subjective and in the last resort unconscious roots, and secondly from objective data transmitted through sense perceptions.

Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by these latter factors than by the former. judgment always presupposes a criterion ; for the extraverted judgment, the valid and determining criterion is the standard taken from objective conditions, no matter whether this be directly represented by an objectively perceptible fact, or expressed in an objective idea ; for an objective idea, even when subjectively sanctioned, is equally external and objective in origin.

you see everyone has this thing called thinking, like jung says, thinking has two sides, the subjective and objective. this is NOT extraverted and introverted thinking. extraverted thinking means to orient yourself according to objective factor, how it fits to external world as portrayed by sense perception. people who are extraverted thinking, simply see the objective factor more trusted, relevant etc, than the subjective factor, thus disregard the subjective factor of thinking to large degree. that is not to say that they lack the subjective factor in their decision making, but they rely on their preferred way of coming to subjective conclusions by the way of feeling. Ti types on the other hand compare their F to external world and place more value to internal logic.

as you probably have noticed, those tests ask questions totally unrelated to what it is actually to have for example extraverted thinking, but ask some stupid questions about do you like to organize your work table etc, which have only some relation to stereotypical typological traits, not really looking at the type from the roots. its like valuating how much some particular table can sustain weight on it, by looking at how much an average table can hold weight, not about the structure or materials used on that particular table.

 

[Grublet]

I took the cognitive functions test at http://cognitivequiz.com/quiz.html and I got these results.

Based on your cognitive functions, your type is most likely:
Most Likely: INTP
or Second Possibility: ISTJ
or Third Possibility: INTJ

Your cognitive functions are, in order of development:
Ti - Si - Ni - Ne - Te - Se - Fe - Fi

Your Cognitive Functions:
Introverted Thinking (Ti) ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.69
Introverted Sensation (Si) ||||||||||||||||||||| 9.74
Introverted Intuition (Ni) ||||||||||||||||||| 8.925
Extroverted Intuition (Ne) ||||||||||||||||||| 8.54
Extroverted Thinking (Te) ||||||||||||||||| 7.93
Extroverted Sensation (Se) |||||||||| 4.3
Extroverted Feeling (Fe) ||||||||| 3.75
Introverted Feeling (Fi) ||||||||| 3.71

Your Introverted Thinking (Ti) is very developed.
Your Extroverted Intuition (Ne) is moderate.
Your Introverted Intuition (Ni) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Sensation (Se) is moderate.
Your Introverted Sensation (Si) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Thinking (Te) is moderate.
Your Extroverted Feeling (Fe) is low.
Your Introverted Feeling (Fi) is low.

I had a feeling I could possibly be an INTP as they're relatively similar to ENTP but with a different order to the functions. I'm more apt to believe this test since it differentiates function attitude.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=16557]Grublet[/MENTION]
you have too much Fe to be INTP. your emotions show noticeably in your facial expressions and vocal patterns and you're frequently thinking about other's needs and putting them before your own. not INTP

 

[Grublet]

I've been visualizing the relations between different types within the temperaments and I've made these diagrams.

All the temperaments

Within the NT temperament

Still trying to figure all this out in my head.

 

[Eric B]

It's basically summed up that J/P will orient the same functions in opposite ways, so if you have NTSF, P tells you the perception N is extraverted. It's also the dominant, so E. The auxiliary judgment (T) is introverted. Hence, ENTP. But to change it to a J, then Judgment (T) is extraverted. Since it's also auxiliary, then the dominant perception (N) is introverted, thus I. Hence, INTJ.
INTP and ENTJ are the same thing, but with N and T changing position (And S and F as well).

So ENTP/INTJ have in common the NTSF order,
while INTP and ENTJ are TNSF.
ENTP and ENTJ have in common just the attitudes: dominant e and auxiliary i (and by extension, tertiary and inferior repeat e, i)
INTP and INTJ have in common ieie
ENTP and INTP have in common, of course, function and attitude combinations rather than any order: Ti and Ne
ENTJ and INTJ are Te and Ni.

 

[entropie]

You guys ever thought about turning away from psychology and making a career in math ?

 

[Grublet]

[MENTION=4109]entropie[/MENTION] I plan to attend college to pursue a career in electrical computer engineering, specializing in digital image processing. It's a highly mathematical field.

 

[Grublet]

It's basically summed up that J/P will orient the same functions in opposite ways, so if you have NTSF, P tells you the perception N is extraverted. It's also the dominant, so E. The auxiliary judgment (T) is introverted. Hence, ENTP. But to change it to a J, then Judgment (T) is extraverted. Since it's also auxiliary, then the dominant perception (N) is introverted, thus I. Hence, INTJ.
INTP and ENTJ are the same thing, but with N and T changing position (And S and F as well).

So ENTP/INTJ have in common the NTSF order,
while INTP and ENTJ are TNSF.
ENTP and ENTJ have in common just the attitudes: dominant e and auxiliary i (and by extension, tertiary and inferior repeat e, i)
INTP and INTJ have in common ieie
ENTP and INTP have in common, of course, function and attitude combinations rather than any order: Ti and Ne
ENTJ and INTJ are Te and Ni.

Very enlightening, I intend to read your pages on MBTI and the like later when I feel more up to it.

 

[Grublet]

Here's the start of something I like to call multi-type theory. I just don't know where to go with it yet.

As you can see, not only are there four types in each group related by their functions, but both groups are opposing. The theory I have is one that the order of the functions is flexible, although there is a type that is more apt to reveal itself depending on certain external factors. The easiest to relate to of the three shadow types is the one with the path of least resistance, that is to say, the one that uses the same first two functions but of a different dominance. According to match making theory in socionics I think the easiest shadow type to bring out in yourself would most likely be the one which shares your tertiary function as a dominant function. So an ENTP would probably most likely identify with INTPs while displaying ESFJ traits.

This theory is mostly based on own self analysis and the analysis of my family.

 

[Grublet]

Some more cerebral diarrhea.