DAMN IT! I WANT TO HEAR FI USERS EXPRESS THEIR FEELINGS!

[Randomnity]

Maybe it has to do with having a tertiary feeling function? I guess Randomnity has that too, maybe that gets expressed in everyone differently.

I wouldn't call it a "moral" question, but it seems like the Fi's (mostly) are arguing that "self-expression" is more important than the annoyance of other people, and the Fe's (mostly) are arguing that the latter is more important. So if you distill the issue to its bare bones, it does come down to principles for both sides, in a way. Although it seems like both sides have real trouble understanding the other (I have no idea why anyone needs to blare unwanted music at people to "express" themselves, and a lot of the Fi users in that thread seem to have no idea why unwanted music would be annoying/invasive, despite explicitly explaining why). Yeah, I'm clearly biased.

I don't know if anyone really thinks it's a big deal (although I noticed a LOT of dramatic value judgements in the thread about people who dislike autoplay, for some reason), let alone a moral issue. To me it's a not-insignificant annoyance and I thought that my opinion was probably not uncommon, so I started the thread to poll opinions.

One thing I find really funny is how many "wahh first world problems, you whiner" sentiments are expressed by some people who don't hesitate to have a hissy fit about something equally minor that they happen to dislike. I see the validity of both the "hissy fit" and "shut up, first world problems" sides, and neither one is wrong, but it's too funny when it's the same person saying both.

 

[KDude]

think of it like this...

there's 15 kids all surrounding a bully and the kid he's picking on. the kids watching are egging him on. they wanna see a fight. they laugh at the bully's cruel jokes.

the majority as i see it does not win. their rights do not outweigh the individual because of the inherent truth of what is right.

Bad situation I wish I wasn't on the wrong side of now. I've instigated situations like this though... being the bully or encouraging one. And I've done it on a wider scale.. by turning a whole school against one group. So it's groups against one group. In this case though, it might've been morally centered. There were these kickers and country dudes in highschool who had scraped "KKK" on their picnic tables. I spread it around. This is the one moment where punk rockers, crips, and mexican gangs beat the shit out of them for a week straight. Even some girls got hurt.

Actually, it started small when I spread it.. And then they tried to turn it on my punk friends.. said they were skinheads. So I help to escalate it and get the truth out. I wasn't hated enough by any of the gangs in school that I could pull it off.. maybe it was my maniacal ENFJ shadow.

 

[greenfairy]

Well if Fi is the internal flame of human spirit free of the trappings of all set conditions and conduct, then Fe is the external flame of shared comfort helping us to push on and that it will 'all be ok'.

Fi fights for us and paves a way to common human understanding. Fe surrounds us with a shared standard of sympathetic consideration, it doesn't delve in, rather it spreads itself extensively, reminding us that even the empty platitude must have come from a core value of decency and respect. Thus it wraps around us like cotton wool...on those little bumps and slips where we need an environment of assurity to fall back...which it provides.

Fi on the other hand is the personal flame of humanities naked essence, born into a world that often only understands by set standards of labelling; it strives to free us from the drudgery and danger of falling too hard on definitions that set us apart. Instead it attempts to throw open a path of understanding that eats through to the very centre of human truth. A truth so pure that it cannot be expressed clearly in any language of the tongue, which is unfit to tread the intangible depths that this truth consists of.

This is why Fi struggles so very much in a world that cannot understand a drive without words, a drive that must be emoted in the very soul to have any understanding at all.

But both are needed. We need some set standards to avoid anarchy and we need to occasionally set those standards aside so that we avoid oppression.

So through this balance can two sides come together and meet the other going in the opposite direction..one will smile and nod, the other will twinkle with the eyes and they shall both understand one another in a new found view of respect.

That's beautiful. And informative.

 

[Randomnity]

think of it like this...

there's 15 kids all surrounding a bully and the kid he's picking on. the kids watching are egging him on. they wanna see a fight. they laugh at the bully's cruel jokes.

the majority as i see it does not win. their rights do not outweigh the individual because of the inherent truth of what is right.

that is not at all how Fe works.

it's not at all about majority's desires winning, and it's a little upsetting to see it simplified to that. (If that were the case, I'd be a homophobe since there are probably more homophobes in the US than actual gay people, sadly.)

It's more like what leads to the best outcome for everyone, not what the majority of people want. So even if they all want to bully the little kid, it's better for everyone if they're stopped by someone, even if it makes them sad.

 

[greenfairy]

Because of this thread, I was doubting I was Fi.
People doubt I'm a N.
Now that I think people feel like everyone, I'm doubting I'm an enneagram 4.
Everything I believed was a lie!
What am I?

Yeah I've been there. Don't worry, if you end up not fitting anything it's alright. You might even end up IENTFPSJ.

 

[MacGuffin]

that is not at all how Fe works.

it's not at all about majority's desires winning, and it's a little upsetting to see it simplified to that. (If that were the case, I'd be a homophobe since there are probably more homophobes in the US than actual gay people, sadly.)

It's more like what leads to the best outcome for everyone, not what the majority of people want. So even if they all want to bully the little kid, it's better for everyone if they're stopped by someone, even if it makes them sad.

Exactly.

There are a lot of things that annoy me, but I don't complain about them because they're just my personal irks.

 

[Lady_X]

that is not at all how Fe works.

it's not at all about majority's desires winning, and it's a little upsetting to see it simplified to that. (If that were the case, I'd be a homophobe since there are probably more homophobes in the US than actual gay people, sadly.)

It's more like what leads to the best outcome for everyone, not what the majority of people want. So even if they all want to bully the little kid, it's better for everyone if they're stopped by someone, even if it makes them sad.

oh god no no that's not what i meant!! i wasn't saying that is how fe is...shit...no i meant to just put it into terms everyone could understand and relate to. like everyone knows in that scenario the individuals rights trump the majority.

i was just saying we zero in on the individual. what is "right" by them without deciding what is right for the collective. like...ideal for me is that each individual in a group feels they have a voice and that people compromise to get the most of what's important to the individuals by bending in other ways that are less important.

 

[Randomnity]

ahh, ok, that's a relief.

 

[KDude]

oh god no no that's not what i meant!! i wasn't saying that is how fe is...shit...no i meant to just put it into terms everyone could understand and relate to. like everyone knows in that scenario the individuals rights trump the majority.

i was just saying we zero in on the individual. what is "right" by them without deciding what is right for the collective. like...ideal for me is that each individual in a group feels they have a voice and that people compromise to get the most of what's important to the individuals by bending in other ways that are less important.

Do you sort of have "ACLU" type of thinking? Say, defend Nazi parades, because they have a voice too. Because my first thought would be to gun them down. But only if I could get away with it. The cherry on top would be to get a pat on the back maybe. I don't care about some people's rights, when it comes down to it.

 

[Poki]

think of it like this...

there's 15 kids all surrounding a bully and the kid he's picking on. the kids watching are egging him on. they wanna see a fight. they laugh at the bully's cruel jokes.

the majority as i see it does not win. their rights do not outweigh the individual because of the inherent truth of what is right.

Not everyone is like this, maybe an Fe who is big on mob mentality. I normally prefer for the person who is at the brunt of the bullying to win. I dont like bullies. Where as some people I know just want the underdog to win. If there are 2 people going at it and both are bullies, but one is the underdog I could really care less who wins. I would prefer to see them both beat each to a pulp.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I think we need a quick sum-up:

Fe is cake,
Fi is pie,
Neither are pudding,
So therefore,
It doesn't matter.

 

[Randomnity]

So just to clarify, if I feel an urge to ninja-merge these two threads just to create even MORE confusion, is that Fe or Fi?

 

[Lady_X]

Do you sort of have "ACLU" type of thinking? Say, defend Nazi parades, because they have a voice too. Because my first thought would be to gun them down. But only if I could get away with it. The cherry on top would be to get a pat on the back maybe. I don't care about some people's rights, when it comes down to it.

no..it all gets measured constantly. you get a voice...but if you hurt someone with it i will kick your ass haha

 

[Poki]

I think we need a quick sum-up:

Fe is cake,
Fi is pie,
Neither are pudding,
So therefore,
It doesn't matter.

I demand clarification on type of cake/pie/pudding so I may drool approprietly(sp?)

 

[KDude]

no..it all gets measured constantly. you get a voice...but if you hurt someone with it i will kick your ass haha

Now we're out of the realm of Fi and Fe. If you can use your Ne to come up with better solutions, I would defer to that. Se wants go for the simple solution and just kill nazis.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I demand clarification on type of cake/pie/pudding so I may drool approprietly(sp?)

Your favorite cake = Fe, your favorite pie = Fi, and your favorite pudding = I don't remember.

*starts thinking about baking a cake*

 

[greenfairy]

Hey is Fi kind of like Ti this way? Like, you can only really express it in symbols and pictures and other abstract forms? Like, look at this, this is my entire idea! Don't you get it?? Except maybe with a piece of artwork.

 

[Randomnity]

Hey is Fi kind of like Ti this way? Like, you can only really express it in symbols and pictures and other abstract forms? Like, look at this, this is my entire idea! Don't you get it?? Except maybe with a piece of artwork.

What, that's not true about Ti. Ti is just figuring how things work and what they are, it doesn't have to be abstract at all.

 

[Poki]

Hey is Fi kind of like Ti this way? Like, you can only really express it in symbols and pictures and other abstract forms? Like, look at this, this is my entire idea! Don't you get it?? Except maybe with a piece of artwork.

Yeah...when a developer asks about my thought process I code it all and say..."there you go". 90% of the time its easier for me to put it into practice then to explain it.

 

[greenfairy]

What, that's not true about Ti. Ti is just figuring how things work and what they are, it doesn't have to be abstract at all.

Well no it doesn't have to be. But it is notoriously hard to explain to the fullest extent to other people who don't think the same way. Unless you do it step by grueling step.