INTJ vs INTP

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I think the difference between INTJs and INTPS is INTJs mature past 14. I don't remember ever liking comic books other than Mad Magazine. For grown men to walk around reading comic books, collecting action figures, and trying to relate everything to the death star is a little disturbing. The acting in Star Wars makes Kirsten Stewart look good. It's like Lucas found 4 accountants and said, "Read this, it's about royalty in outer space. They use weapons almost as effective as a revolver though they can traverse the galaxy. I'll film it."

I've never seen Star Trek or Star Wars, or read a comic, so I guess I can't be INTP.

But then I couldn't get past 10 pages of Atlas Shrugged either because I felt it was unfair to intrude on the private grief of a mad Russian woman with the literary touch of a rapist. So who knows. I guess I wouldn't fit in your social circle.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I still haven't read Atlas Shrugged (though I have a clue what it's about!). I very much enjoyed comic books for several years. I appreciate Star Wars the same way I appreciate Indiana Jones: it's a series of rather disconnected adventures that is intended to be entertaining, not a thought-provoking drama.

If you want to compare how INTJs and INTPs differ with respect to entertainment, consider this: an INTP friend of mine frequently criticized my (D&D) gaming style, in that he accused me of "playing to win". Of course, there is no real "winning" in role playing games, it's an ongoing story. I wasn't playing to win, but it wasn't a fun game for me if I couldn't explore the limits in terms of effective strategies, which meant it looked like I was playing to win. INTPs instead want to explore the limits in terms of possibilities. An INTP is more likely than an INTJ to just go and "do something stupid" because it might be fun and interesting in the game, while figuring out what is effective in-game is what interests the INTJ.

He complains that you play a competitve game to win? Sounds a bit weak, I don't an intp would necessarilly be that lame.

That kind of thing I see online always made me back away from calling myself intp

 

[uumlau]

What's the difference between seeking the most "effective" strategy and playing to win?

The goal of exploring strategies is not necessarily to win. It's an exploration of various paths to any random goal. Think of it as a Feyman path integral, if you will. The goal might be defeating the evil overlord, in which case it coincides with "playing to win" in a sense, but it might also be "to buy (or build) a house", or "start a business", or "gain mastery of spells" and so on. One of the funnest times I had was using wild magic with its random results to create some interesting tools and toys.

The difference is that the Ne in the INTP explores paths without an end point in mind, so more of a random walk than a methodical exploration. Those paths can be just as fun and interesting.

I've noticed you guys are frequently in denial about your desire to dominate a situation (the end game). Something the rest of us are only too aware of.

I've noticed that you are quite fond of ascribing motivations to others based on your ignorance. In this case, there is usually no desire to dominate but rather a distinct lack of awareness of the need to accommodate others. Those who know INTJs well realize that such conflicts are easily resolved by just speaking up and making the INTJ aware. Those "INTJ"s who don't respond well to such an approach are really the MBTI type known as "JERK". There are plenty of mistyped "JERK"s out there.

He complains that you play a competitve game to win? Sounds a bit weak, I don't an intp would necessarilly be that lame.

That kind of thing I see online always made me back away from calling myself intp

It's not really a competitive game, it's an RPG, a role playing game. With the advent of computer RPGs, it's become clear that there are several different styles of playing. Some people want the story. Some people want the strategy. Some people want to explore a new world. Some people want to just beat the crap out of imaginary things with an imaginary sword or an imaginary fireball. All of it is kind of a self-expression, with the only limits being the ability of the world (whether computer or a human mind) to accommodate it.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Seeing how video games have now been brought into the discussion, I thought I would quote a post here I made earlier today in another thread about "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion" and my amazingly epic character creation concept, as you can see in my quote:

Describe what kind of Elder Scrolls character you created or would plan on creating (in any Elder Scrolls game like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim).

Anyway, now that the hype of Skyrim has died down, I was considering returning back to the classic game of Oblivion. It took me a while to think of a good character build for Oblivion, and I finally decided upon the below design:
Game - Oblivion
Name - Poimandres
Race - Male High Elf (vampire)
Birthsign - Apprentice
Class - Archon (custom)
Specialization - Magic
Attributes - Willpower, Speed
Skills - Blade, Mysticism, Alteration, Destruction, Marksman, Acrobatics, Athletics
Description - Uses 50% reflect and shield spells with minor ailment (i.e. damage fatigue 1 point) to capitalize on the apprentice's 100% weakness to magic and hence get reflect spell 100% to cover up the weakness to magic as well as a 100% shield spell against physical damage. Speed and movement in combat are also essential for dodging and striking. Destruction combined with blade and marksman should deal a variety of heavy damage. Being a vampire will also increase overall power, at the cost of NPC interaction and daylight hours. He also uses 8 pieces of fortify magicka 50 points clothing enchanted by transcendant sigil stones to maximize magicka at 800 points, making for a character theoretically possessing virtually ultimate power, albeit at a cost.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I clicked on this thread to see some kind of a fight between the types - probably with giant death robots, documented for our amusement. (Was there any?)

 

[Pseudo]

I think the difference between INTJs and INTPS is INTJs mature past 14. I don't remember ever liking comic books other than Mad Magazine. For grown men to walk around reading comic books, collecting action figures, and trying to relate everything to the death star is a little disturbing. The acting in Star Wars makes Kirsten Stewart look good. It's like Lucas found 4 accountants and said, "Read this, it's about royalty in outer space. They use weapons almost as effective as a revolver though they can traverse the galaxy. I'll film it."

.

As an INTP who dislikes fantasy and only has the lay persons amount of fascination with science fiction, I'd like to say that I don't think there is anything inherently immature about these hobbies. Just a cultural bias against them. For whatever reason comics and fantasy movies are unacceptable for adults where as watching sports or home decor or following band isn't considered obkectionable. My cousin is really into anime and builds fundamental models. But he also holds a job and is working towards his degree. Which is more mature then particular of the fishermen and dance enthusiasts I know. I don't think hobbies are a good measure of how "disturbing" a particular person is.


I do think you have highlighted a good INTP/INTJ distinction though. Or maybe just J/P. we seem more open to meaning or importance to come from various places whereas you guys seem to have set ideas on how to achieve success/knowledge. We seem more open minded in the sense of being willing to "entertain" absurd or wrong ideas, even if we don't except them. He the idea being that there is some fundamental value or universal human desire fulfilled by Star Wars that has yet to be perceived except by fan boys.

Perhaps this is better state as: we are not as preoccupied with the end goal. Because the usefulness or purpose of the thought/action isn't our main concern were more willing to meander through seemingly "throw away" ideas or low art/cultural phenomena. There is no hierarchy of subject matter.



Maybe?

 

[Salomé]

^You make us sound altogether too whimsical and lacking in discrimination. I have no interest in low brow entertainment, in comic books, Star Wars or RPGs. We aren't all walking stereotypes. We are capable of serious, directed endeavour. I just think we have greater perspective on those things which require that we take them seriously, and those that don't. People who are very competitive about games (which are supposed to be fun and a way of releasing tension) tend to piss me off too. They create an atmosphere which ruins the experience for everyone else.

The goal of exploring strategies is not necessarily to win. It's an exploration of various paths to any random goal.

The inclusion of "effective" betrayed you!

The difference is that the Ne in the INTP explores paths without an end point in mind, so more of a random walk than a methodical exploration.

That's not strictly true. We do have a goal in mind, it's just not always about winning.

I've noticed that you are quite fond of ascribing motivations to others based on your ignorance.

Actually, a number of INTJs have already confirmed this observation. Your strenuous defence regarding situations you aren't privy to, speaks to your own denial.

 

[RaptorWizard]

.

As an INTP who dislikes fantasy and only has the lay persons amount of fascination with science fiction, I'd like to say that I don't think there is anything inherently immature about these hobbies. Just a cultural bias against them. For whatever reason comics and fantasy movies are unacceptable for adults where as watching sports or home decor or following band isn't considered obkectionable. My cousin is really into anime and builds fundamental models. But he also holds a job and is working towards his degree. Which is more mature then particular of the fishermen and dance enthusiasts I know. I don't think hobbies are a good measure of how "disturbing" a particular person is.


I do think you have highlighted a good INTP/INTJ distinction though. Or maybe just J/P. we seem more open to meaning or importance to come from various places whereas you guys seem to have set ideas on how to achieve success/knowledge. We seem more open minded in the sense of being willing to "entertain" absurd or wrong ideas, even if we don't except them. He the idea being that there is some fundamental value or universal human desire fulfilled by Star Wars that has yet to be perceived except by fan boys.

Perhaps this is better state as: we are not as preoccupied with the end goal. Because the usefulness or purpose of the thought/action isn't our main concern were more willing to meander through seemingly "throw away" ideas or low art/cultural phenomena. There is no hierarchy of subject matter.



Maybe?

STAR WARS!?!? YYYYYYEEEEESSSSSSS YYYYYAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY

 

[Pseudo]

^You make us sound altogether too whimsical and lacking in discrimination. I have no interest in low brow entertainment, in comic books, Star Wars or RPGs. We aren't all walking stereotypes. We are capable of serious, directed endeavour. I just think we have greater perspective on those things which require that we take them seriously, and those that don't. People who are very competitive about games (which are supposed to be fun and a way of releasing tension) tend to piss me off too. They create an atmosphere which ruins the experience for everyone else.
The inclusion of "effective" betrayed you!

That's not strictly true. We do have a goal in mind, it's just not always about winning.

Actually, a number of INTJs have already confirmed this observation. Your strenuous defence regarding situations you aren't privy to, speaks to your own denial.

I think whimsical is the wrong word. Just open, less in line with "the rules" of what makes things important/unimportant. I don't really buy into the concept high or low art. If it connecting with people then something significant is happening. And also I wasn't suggesting that we lack discernment but that our discernment is less based on the overall productivity or respectibility of the idea. In my mind INTJs are the history painters and INTPs might be more conceptual artists.


INTJ masterwork:


INTP masterwork:



Just because your capable of a directed endeavor doesn't mean you find it most fulfilling. I can plan and complete tasks in an orderly fashion but it doesn't mean It's the best or my preferred way of doing things.

 

[Salomé]

You think INTJs are artistic? Or were you using that expression figuratively? Are INTJs interested in art?

From what I've read, the opposite is true (Ps tend towards realism, Js towards abstraction).

 

[Pseudo]

You think INTJs are artistic? Or were you using that expression figuratively? Are INTJs interested in art?

From what I've read, the opposite is true (Ps tend towards realism, Js towards abstraction).

I think all types can be interested in Art. And really all types can make any type of work. I was using art as a visual example of thinking, which obviously didn't translate.

I don't really get why Js would be abstractionists and Ps would be realists (Is this in the sense of imitationalism or in the portrayal of the mundane?).

 

[Aesthete]

I remember seeing a joke on youtube along the lines of: the guy wearing the weird, nerdy shirt is an INTP, and the guy who gets the joke and laughs at it, but would never wear that shirt is the INTJ. It makes sense a bit, as the INTJs strong, extroverted thinking makes one like looking neat and presentable, while an INTP wouldn't have as much care for such things (except for the tertiary Si, which can have a similar effect, but is nonetheless different).

 

[uumlau]

The inclusion of "effective" betrayed you!

Ti types tend to invest much in the meaning of words, without paying much attention to the meaning of statements.

That's not strictly true. We do have a goal in mind, it's just not always about winning.

Oh, so it's sometimes about winning?

Actually, there is a great deal of irony, here, because in spite of the INTP complaints about INTJs, Ti types are generally very competitive - they're just not as declarative about it. Your rhetorical pokes and jabs are a good example of this.

Actually, a number of INTJs have already confirmed this observation.

I can make assertions without backing them up, too!

I find the "lack of awareness" to be far more pervasive than the desire to "dominate". I am perhaps biased, however, being a type 9 INTJ and not a type 8. Type 8s of whatever MBTI type cannot help but dominate, but it isn't a function of INTJ-ness. As a type 9, I was often surprised when I was younger how my intentions were misinterpreted: there were entire contexts I was missing that made sense in retrospect, but simply weren't there for me at the time. Even with the type 8s, they're often trying to be "helpful" in their own eyes (they integrate to type 2), fighting for those whom they love and perceive to be at a disadvantage.

Your strenuous defence regarding situations you aren't privy to, speaks to your own denial.

I'm not really trying to prove anything to you. I regret the lack of communication more than proving anything to anyone. If you understand what I say, and have a cogent reply as to why I'm wrong, that makes me happy. If your response to what I say is amateur psychoanalysis, then I know that the communication failed somewhere.

 

[Pseudo]

Ti types tend to invest much in the meaning of words, without paying much attention to the meaning of statements.


Oh, so it's sometimes about winning?

Actually, there is a great deal of irony, here, because in spite of the INTP complaints about INTJs, Ti types are generally very competitive - they're just not as declarative about it. Your rhetorical pokes and jabs are a good example of this.


I can make assertions without backing them up, too!

I find the "lack of awareness" to be far more pervasive than the desire to "dominate". I am perhaps biased, however, being a type 9 INTJ and not a type 8. Type 8s of whatever MBTI type cannot help but dominate, but it isn't a function of INTJ-ness. As a type 9, I was often surprised when I was younger how my intentions were misinterpreted: there were entire contexts I was missing that made sense in retrospect, but simply weren't there for me at the time. Even with the type 8s, they're often trying to be "helpful" in their own eyes (they integrate to type 2), fighting for those whom they love and perceive to be at a disadvantage.




I'm not really trying to prove anything to you. I regret the lack of communication more than proving anything to anyone. If you understand what I say, and have a cogent reply as to why I'm wrong, that makes me happy. If your response to what I say is amateur psychoanalysis, then I know that the communication failed somewhere.

[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]

I agree about the competitiveness. I am very competitive but generally I we make ourselves the "decider" when it comes to winning rather than some external source. As long as I feel I've won (or that someone else's win is in a category unrelated or unimportant to me) I don't need to have the win recognized in a formal way. I think it annoys us when this image is broken and we have to accept outside rulings.