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INTJ vs INTP

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
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So calling people irrational is unconscionable (bad Jung!), but calling them callous and inhuman, well, that's just helpful feedback.

If I had a heart, and/or thought the greenfairy ever knew what it was talking about, I might take offence at that.
As it is...:shrug:
I was speaking figuratively and making a joke. And I don't value your opinion anymore, because you've shown that you know what I'm talking about even less often than you think I do.

So it would hypothetically bother you to be called callous and inhuman, but your admitted preferred way of interacting with people is harsh and insulting? That's a bit of hypocrisy.
 

greenfairy

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Your assessment agrees with this supposedly INFJ-generated theory in regard to INTP, but not INTJ. Many see the expectation of anything warm and cuddly inside INTJs as wishful thinking. The "warm and fuzzy" designation, however, is reserved for NFs.
Yeah. I hadn't actually seen it. I think every type has a warm cuddly/squishy side to them. Just because everyone has emotions, and is vulnerable at times. All types like human relationships, and have to be vulnerable now and then. If you get close to someone you see that side of them now and then. That's all I meant by the expression. But yes, I admit I do have some wishful thinking in that I like to imagine I can make friends with people who end up just not being interested.

In any case, my comment was meant as a joke.
Missed that. :shock:
 

RaptorWizard

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I think that the below post by uumlau would make a fine addition to this thread:

One of the things to keep in mind with respect to "trust in [one's] thought processes" is that INFPs and INTPs share a tertiary Si, which has some rather odd effects, in particular the effect of making it difficult to "unlearn" bad information. In INTPs, this shows up when, no matter how much evidence one presents, the evidence is rejected when it contradicts "known facts" (Si). Part of the problem is that it doesn't matter that the known facts are wrong, because it takes a lot of work to rebuild the mental framework. It's a very trustworthy framework, and changing to a new one takes a lot of time and effort, therefore, such individuals tend to force others to prove that it's worth their time and effort. In INFPs, it isn't a structure of facts and data and logic, but of feelings and impressions and understandings. For both INTPs and INFPs, these structures are intrinsic, and not very far from one's sense of identity.

INxJs can be stubborn cusses, but interestingly don't seem to have this problem. If new facts (Te, Fe, Se) appear that contradict assumptions, then the INxJ "troubleshoots" the assumptions, looks for the key item that is "incorrect" (which can be hard to put into words, because other people cannot see our thought flows), and fix it. This is how I troubleshoot software on a daily basis: I don't assume it's correct, I assume that it demonstrably works pretty good, but might contain functional flaws. I think it's the "functional" bit that doesn't jibe with INxP thought patterns. It's more "is" than "functional". Undoing "is" means changing things intrinsically, while undoing "functional" is just a matter of substituting in a corrected process.

I think for INFPs, the answer is to "listen closely" to oneself, and listen for sounds and echoes that indicate that something "isn't right". Don't stop listening, because it's the listening (Fi, believe it or not) that will hear where the Si-crystal is fractured, and if you hear it long enough, then it will convince you that it's wrong, and let you know where the problem lies. Then make whatever adjustment seems correct, and then continue listening: you might have missed something, or even made something worse. INTPs need to do something similar, but I would label it "internal thinking" (what else?!), where they're thinking over their own logical patterns, looking for Si faults.

Just remember that "listening" is a key Fi strength, just as being able to instantly synthesize data into an integrated understanding is an Ni strength.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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I think that the below post by uumlau would make a fine addition to this thread:

As a Ti-user (makes it sound like heroin), I see what he is saying.

the issue is this, and it happens to me at work a lot:

I build a whole framework based on the facts you give me, to make a perfect output.

If suddenly you come to me and change a fact, you invalidate the whole perfect system, because it is all tied in. I get irritated, because I take instructions very precisely, and can't just quickly "undo" a whole system, to make it work. I can do it, but it will take time.

the INTJ may be more adaptable int hat situation, but their system will be more £functional" and less perfect.

Ultimately, we're suited to different fields. I will give a perfect translation of a 20,00 word text.

I'm not so good at giving a snappy, effective press release based on little info about audience or the client.
 

Jonny

null
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As a Ti-user (makes it sound like heroin), I see what he is saying.

the issue is this, and it happens to me at work a lot:

I build a whole framework based on the facts you give me, to make a perfect output.

If suddenly you come to me and change a fact, you invalidate the whole perfect system, because it is all tied in. I get irritated, because I take instructions very precisely, and can't just quickly "undo" a whole system, to make it work. I can do it, but it will take time.

the INTJ may be more adaptable int hat situation, but their system will be more £functional" and less perfect.

Ultimately, we're suited to different fields. I will give a perfect translation of a 20,00 word text.

I'm not so good at giving a snappy, effective press release based on little info about audience or the client.

Output perfect for what? When one develops a system that is “perfect” for some hypothetical, ideal universe, he necessarily creates an imperfect system in our "less ideal" universe (to the extent that the two universes differ). As an INTP, I am focused on creating systems that are as perfect as they can be, but as an Actuary, I recognize the limited precision and accuracy of our inputs and adjust my systems accordingly. Thus, I strive to create systems that are as perfect as they can be in the practical sense.

If you’re frustrated by having to go back and change what you’ve already created, consider developing variable (multidimensional) systems to start with. Instead of having the foundation be “the way the world should be,” recognize the way the world is. Of course, this means you’ll need to rely on data more, since you can’t just rely on hand-wavy assumptions, and you’ll need to spend a great deal of time anticipating what is likely to affect your system, but in the end you’ll get a better product.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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Output perfect for what? When one develops a system that is “perfect” for some hypothetical, ideal universe, he necessarily creates an imperfect system in our "less ideal" universe

Perfect as in perfectly meeting what I was asked for and the situation at hand. If it wasn't I wouldn't keep getting work.:D
 

Eric B

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In my experience INTPs do seem to be less tough-minded than INTJs, but I'm not sure I can get on board with his explanation. This is due to my own personal battle the the MBTI theory about the third and fourth processes. I never liked them as I always felt they restricted the number of possible permutations without any really good inferred explanation for why.
What he says has merit, but it's also explained by directing vs informing (Interaction Styles). The ISTP would also have the Fe, but they are the same Interaction Style as INTJ, so both will probably come off very similarly on the surface. INTP is the odd man out, of the IT's.
 

jgalt

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I think the difference between INTJs and INTPS is INTJs mature past 14. I don't remember ever liking comic books other than Mad Magazine. For grown men to walk around reading comic books, collecting action figures, and trying to relate everything to the death star is a little disturbing. The acting in Star Wars makes Kirsten Stewart look good. It's like Lucas found 4 accountants and said, "Read this, it's about royalty in outer space. They use weapons almost as effective as a revolver though they can traverse the galaxy. I'll film it."
 

Red Herring

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I think the difference between INTJs and INTPS is INTJs mature past 14. I don't remember ever liking comic books other than Mad Magazine. For grown men to walk around reading comic books, collecting action figures, and trying to relate everything to the death star is a little disturbing. The acting in Star Wars makes Kirsten Stewart look good. It's like Lucas found 4 accountants and said, "Read this, it's about royalty in outer space. They use weapons almost as effective as a revolver though they can traverse the galaxy. I'll film it."

While young INTJs run around with copies of Atlas Shrugged :coffee:
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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While young INTJs run around with copies of Atlas Shrugged :coffee:
Precisely. The sublime vs. the ridiculous. (I was frequently teased about the books I read as a teen and even preteen, but they were worth it.)
 

uumlau

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I still haven't read Atlas Shrugged (though I have a clue what it's about!). I very much enjoyed comic books for several years. I appreciate Star Wars the same way I appreciate Indiana Jones: it's a series of rather disconnected adventures that is intended to be entertaining, not a thought-provoking drama.

If you want to compare how INTJs and INTPs differ with respect to entertainment, consider this: an INTP friend of mine frequently criticized my (D&D) gaming style, in that he accused me of "playing to win". Of course, there is no real "winning" in role playing games, it's an ongoing story. I wasn't playing to win, but it wasn't a fun game for me if I couldn't explore the limits in terms of effective strategies, which meant it looked like I was playing to win. INTPs instead want to explore the limits in terms of possibilities. An INTP is more likely than an INTJ to just go and "do something stupid" because it might be fun and interesting in the game, while figuring out what is effective in-game is what interests the INTJ.
 

Coriolis

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If you want to compare how INTJs and INTPs differ with respect to entertainment, consider this: an INTP friend of mine frequently criticized my (D&D) gaming style, in that he accused me of "playing to win". Of course, there is no real "winning" in role playing games, it's an ongoing story. I wasn't playing to win, but it wasn't a fun game for me if I couldn't explore the limits in terms of effective strategies, which meant it looked like I was playing to win. INTPs instead want to explore the limits in terms of possibilities. An INTP is more likely than an INTJ to just go and "do something stupid" because it might be fun and interesting in the game, while figuring out what is effective in-game is what interests the INTJ.
This has been my experience in RPGs as well. I am known for using low-level, unexciting spells in novel ways to great effect to accomplish something. Also for creative use of NWPs and even "dungeon decor". I enjoy the challenge, plus it's fun to keep my INTP gamemaster (and SO) guessing.
 

Doctorjuice

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I was mostly referring to INTPs when they are not at their best. Having Ti as their dominant function, they will find themselves wanting to cut off incoming information a lot of the time. Sometimes, the opposite of this occurs when the INTP will actively seek out new information because they don't have the necessary information at hand to solve the problem (or answer a question, or achieve some sort of goal). They don't want to continue in this state forever and will always want to go back to an equilibrium state where information isn't so readily coming in. An INTP in a bad state shows an extreme case of this in which they don't want to take in hardly any information, and the information they do want to take in will be limited to that which reaffirms previously made assumptions or conclusions. They will want to confine themselves to their comfort-zone. I think every INTP must've experienced this bad state sometime in their life. One personality website calls it "being stuck in a rut". Other people say this is a Ti-Si loop. I am undecided on my opinion of the validity of dominant-tertiary loops, btw.

These traits I mentioned also apply to ISTPs, at least to some degree.

An INTP in a good state will take little hesitation in seeking out new information when they need to but also be able to recognize when it is time cut off the flow of incoming information and reflect.

When an INTP does actively seek out new information in a healthy way, they will do so in an "absorb-all" sort of way, being non-selective for the most part.

Notice all of this boils down to whether the INTP is using Ne in a healthy way or an unhealthy way. For the healthy way, the INTP is truly trying to expand their perspective. For the unhealthy way, the INTP is confining themselves to information that either reaffirms their conclusions and assumptions or is within their comfort zone, if they are even seeking out information at all.
[MENTION=9251]Jonnyboy[/MENTION]
Since you asked, I'm interested in your feedback on this. Does it ring true and satisfy the question that was raised? Any critiques, holes, or rebuttals?

Anybody else's feedback/criticism is welcome as well, of course.
 

Salomé

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I think the difference between INTJs and INTPS is INTJs mature past 14. I don't remember ever liking comic books other than Mad Magazine. For grown men to walk around reading comic books, collecting action figures, and trying to relate everything to the death star is a little disturbing. The acting in Star Wars makes Kirsten Stewart look good. It's like Lucas found 4 accountants and said, "Read this, it's about royalty in outer space. They use weapons almost as effective as a revolver though they can traverse the galaxy. I'll film it."
Adults don't make stupid, invalid generalisations, last I checked.
Maybe INTJ adults do. :shrug:
If you want to compare how INTJs and INTPs differ with respect to entertainment, consider this: an INTP friend of mine frequently criticized my (D&D) gaming style, in that he accused me of "playing to win". Of course, there is no real "winning" in role playing games, it's an ongoing story. I wasn't playing to win, but it wasn't a fun game for me if I couldn't explore the limits in terms of effective strategies, which meant it looked like I was playing to win. INTPs instead want to explore the limits in terms of possibilities. An INTP is more likely than an INTJ to just go and "do something stupid" because it might be fun and interesting in the game, while figuring out what is effective in-game is what interests the INTJ.
True. We are funner by far. :coffee:

What's the difference between seeking the most "effective" strategy and playing to win?

I've noticed you guys are frequently in denial about your desire to dominate a situation (the end game). Something the rest of us are only too aware of.
 

RaptorWizard

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My comments in this thread were not kindly smiled upon from the higher powers.

I'll take it as another sign that INTPs are hot little volcanoes.

They erupt pretty darn easily at the whim of the Gods.

They lie dormant for hours on end, and then they explode at the slightest disturbance, like my comments caused.

I guess the trolls are going to have feast, seeing all of the aftermath roasted buffet.

That would mean the INTPs are the trolls, and the non-INTPs like me are the prey.

I guess that also makes me God, since I made them erupt, but since I am prey, they can overthrow me and claim ultimate power.

:overreact: :jesus: :dalek: :evilgenius:
 

Jaguar

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My comments in this thread were not kindly smiled upon from the higher powers.

I'll take it as another sign that INTPs are hot little volcanoes.

They erupt pretty darn easily at the whim of the Gods.

They lie dormant for hours on end, and then they explode at the slightest disturbance, like my comments caused.

I guess the trolls are going to have feast, seeing all of the aftermath roasted buffet.

That would mean the INTPs are the trolls, and the non-INTPs like me are the prey.

I guess that also makes me God, since I made them erupt, but since I am prey, they can overthrow me and claim ultimate power.

:overreact: :jesus: :dalek: :evilgenius:

Has Stalin come back from the grave to censor your opinion? Tell the INTPs who're trolling you to f.o.a.d. Or report their dumb asses to a mod.
 
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