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Fe at it's best

KDude

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I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. I see "community" merely as the group situation of the time. And the strong Fe types contributing the most energy to the emotional atmosphere. It isn't about any specific form of ethics, but their range of expression. I guess some could be Mother Teresa, but I don't think it needs a moral bent. I find Fe "ethics" concerned more with who's off to the side, or not acting as fluttery as they are. That's their ethics. And if you don't do it, or throw a wrench into the emotional enjoyment of the group, then they judge as you "weird" or an asshole. This could be in a big communal situation, but could merely be at a bar with a bunch of people, and not having fun with them. To them, it wouldn't be right to say what you think. That's Fe ethics in a day to day sense. If we're going to talk about something big like Martin Luther King Jr. or something, I have no problem with that. He was cool. But functions don't play out on these big, meaningful global levels all the time.
 

Amargith

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Fe at its core helps people who are lost to find their way back to the community they long to be a part of. It is also the ultimate weapon in solidarity actions.

In fact, the Fe mantra would be: Many hands make light work.

Fe unifies people like no other in a common goal, a common good and gives them a place to belong, and to find meaning in their lives.

One on one Fe is a utilitarian type of morality, imho. I help you when you are in trouble because I know you will do the same for me if Im down on my luck. And its not done as self-preservation but out of genuine sympathy. Fe in people helps out others with action, lightening their burden. It creates security and stability within a group of very diverse people who all have their own agenda to attend to as well, yet somehow manages to inspire the very best in those people. It gets them to see the bigger picture, not just their own petty wants.

At the top of its strength, Fe is great at making the best of the diverse skills mankind has to offer and putting them towards something that will benefit all of them, recognizing each individual for their contribution within the common goal.
 

entropie

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I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. I see "community" merely as the group situation of the time. And the strong Fe types contributing the most energy to the emotional atmosphere. It isn't about any specific form of ethics, but their range of expression. I guess some could be Mother Teresa, but I don't think it needs a moral bent. I find Fe "ethics" concerned more with who's off to the side, or not acting as fluttery as they are. That's their ethics. And if you don't do it, or throw a wrench into the emotional enjoyment of the group, then they judge as you "weird" or an asshole. This could be in a big communal situation, but could merely be at a bar with a bunch of people, and not having fun with them. To them, it wouldn't be right to say what you think. That's Fe ethics in a day to day sense. If we're going to talk about something big like Martin Luther King Jr. or something, I have no problem with that. He was cool. But functions don't play out on these big, meaningful global levels all the time.

Still I wouldnt think that Fe is a measurement for group dynamics only. As a sole function per persona it is indeed a wish for harmony first. The problem is the more harmony hungry you are the lesser you can tolerate troublemakers and thats when left-wing activists become no different than right-wing activists.
 

KDude

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Still I wouldnt think that Fe is a measurement for group dynamics only. As a sole function per persona it is indeed a wish for harmony first. The problem is the more harmony hungry you are the lesser you can tolerate troublemakers and thats when left-wing activists become no different than right-wing activists.

I think some can tolerate troublemakers fine. As long as said troublemaker dominates the "group". For example, I went on a date with an ENFJ (at least she tested that way), and at one time, she had told me she had some attraction to "gangster whiteboys" in the past. We kind of laughed about it. She said she grew out of it. We went out though, and she wanted to meet with some friends. At first, it just seemed like a quiet group... but lo and behold, one of the so called "gangster whiteboys" actually showed up. He was some old friend of hers. I don't know if you know the type, but they're usually blowhard ESTPs who talk like their inner city African Americans. I stood back and kind of laughed. I decided to cut the date short. She forgot everything she said before and transformed right before my eyes. She was all about feeding her Fe and expressiveness into that situation, because everyone else was enjoying themselves. And I'm the "troublemaker" for simply having the presence of mind to be consistent. It doesn't matter who's actually "dangerous". I think Ni Fe at least can go along with many things.
 

Lightyear

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I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. I see "community" merely as the group situation of the time. And the strong Fe types contributing the most energy to the emotional atmosphere. It isn't about any specific form of ethics, but their range of expression. I guess some could be Mother Teresa, but I don't think it needs a moral bent. I find Fe "ethics" concerned more with who's off to the side, or not acting as fluttery as they are. That's their ethics. And if you don't do it, or throw a wrench into the emotional enjoyment of the group, then they judge as you "weird" or an asshole. This could be in a big communal situation, but could merely be at a bar with a bunch of people, and not having fun with them. To them, it wouldn't be right to say what you think. That's Fe ethics in a day to day sense. If we're going to talk about something big like Martin Luther King Jr. or something, I have no problem with that. He was cool. But functions don't play out on these big, meaningful global levels all the time.

Why are you turning an "Fe at its best" thread into another "Let's have a moan about Fe" thread? You have dozens of those to choose from already. (And I am sure I just made this comment because of my Fe.)

I think you are oversimplifying things. I certainly have strong Fe but was brought up in a culture (Germany) where it is more important to be honest than to be polite, people value authenticity and are okay with someone speaking their mind even if they might come across as rude. Now I am living in a culture (England) where it is more important to be polite than to be honest, people are certainly more refined than Germans in their interactions and always know the polite thing to say but after a while I realised that they don't necessarily mean most of what they say, it's just a social facade to keep social cohesion.

As a result even though I really value what I would call "authentic Fe" for its warmth, care and graciousness in difficult situations I am incredibly frustrated by the overly polite, fake Fe I am seeing all around me where I am living now, it actually makes me want to stab myself with a pen knife and say something really rude just to get a rise out of people. And people who simply say what no one else dares to say (in general ExTPs) get an internal high-five from me.
 

KDude

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Why are you turning an "Fe at its best" thread into another "Let's have a moan about Fe" thread?

Where I was moaning? lol. I'm just bringing some balance. Fe isn't the Mother Teresa function.
 

KDude

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We had loads of threads to work that out already.

Oh well. I doubt I'll cause a massive derail or anything. Don't worry about it. Besides, I'm just pointing out Fe's extraverted nature. It adjusts dynamically. It is not a worldview in and of itself. If anything, a worldview would be the Fe type's introversion at play. This would give shape and form to their "morals". And I guess this is the best way for one to be at their "best". Someone mentioned MLK earlier. The things that stand out about him is how he saw where the world was heading ("I have a dream"). His Fe was a vehicle he used to impact others with. His sense of inflection, poetry, etc.. But the "Dream", the new racially neutral world he wanted, was an uplifting form of Ni. Not Fe.
 
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I don't see Fe operating on some big community level. [...]

I get the point that you’re making in this post and your subsequent posts. ISTPs are Fe-users; it’s your Inferior function. You’re naturally going to be cognizant of Fe on a daily level, but mainly in a negative sense, i.e., how it excludes you from this or that specific group, or how it makes you different from other people who might have better Fe than yours.

But I just want to reiterate my own point as a rebuttal of sorts:

For me, as a total non-Fe user, finally paying attention to Fe rules is like discovering a secret code; it’s like a dyslexic person discovering the alphabet and the rules of grammar. People were always just a mystery and a frustration to me. I was dyslexic about people: Although I moved among them, at times it seemed like every enoounter was fraught with tension and fear of the unknown. I just couldn’t fathom the rules that guided encounters with groups and even individuals. (In my daily interactions with people I was just sort of "improvising" as I went along, with mixed results from one encounter to the next.)

So in that sense, for me Fe does indeed “operate on some big community level.” For someone like me, who is really paying attention to Fe for the first time and taking notes, it’s like a codebook that reveals all the secrets: All of a sudden I’ve got access to human society in a guilt-free, anxiety-free way. It’s a first for me, and a big revelation.

I don’t know or care about Mother Theresa or MLK; I’m not interested in whether Fe turns people into saints or devils. I’m just talking about studying Fe rules as a discipline and then taking those rules on faith and applying them and finding that they really do work when it comes to interacting with people. After a lifetime of trepidation and anxiety in dealing with people, it’s almost amazing--Fe really does work! :)
 

entropie

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Why are you turning an "Fe at its best" thread into another "Let's have a moan about Fe" thread? You have dozens of those to choose from already. (And I am sure I just made this comment because of my Fe.)

I think you are oversimplifying things. I certainly have strong Fe but was brought up in a culture (Germany) where it is more important to be honest than to be polite, people value authenticity and are okay with someone speaking their mind even if they might come across as rude. Now I am living in a culture (England) where it is more important to be polite than to be honest, people are certainly more refined than Germans in their interactions and always know the polite thing to say but after a while I realised that they don't necessarily mean most of what they say, it's just a social facade to keep social cohesion.

As a result even though I really value what I would call "authentic Fe" for its warmth, care and graciousness in difficult situations I am incredibly frustrated by the overly polite, fake Fe I am seeing all around me where I am living now, it actually makes me want to stab myself with a pen knife and say something really rude just to get a rise out of people. And people who simply say what no one else dares to say (in general ExTPs) get an internal high-five from me.

Didnt you just ranted yourself ? :D

I think some can tolerate troublemakers fine. As long as said troublemaker dominates the "group". For example, I went on a date with an ENFJ (at least she tested that way), and at one time, she had told me she had some attraction to "gangster whiteboys" in the past. We kind of laughed about it. She said she grew out of it. We went out though, and she wanted to meet with some friends. At first, it just seemed like a quiet group... but lo and behold, one of the so called "gangster whiteboys" actually showed up. He was some old friend of hers. I don't know if you know the type, but they're usually blowhard ESTPs who talk like their inner city African Americans. I stood back and kind of laughed. I decided to cut the date short. She forgot everything she said before and transformed right before my eyes. She was all about feeding her Fe and expressiveness into that situation, because everyone else was enjoying themselves. And I'm the "troublemaker" for simply having the presence of mind to be consistent. It doesn't matter who's actually "dangerous". I think Ni Fe at least can go along with many things.

I do understand you, not only literally but I've made those experiences as well.

I think at this point its only a definition thing. Some say Fe is about "adapting to the rules", some say "its about adapting to the group dynamics". For the former one the question can be raised: what are the rules ? Since Fe is per definition a archetypical personality function, what would an Fe user in a vacuum be ? Were no rules can be adapted to, adapting to rules is impossible.
Some people quickly open the can in which you start mixing "Fe traits" with "religious traits" in special western world religious views. Thats when it gets really nasty. I guess its a bane of Fe users, like the bane of strong analytical people is to be called emotionless.

The other thing about "Fe is adapting to the group dynamics" is a thing that can be disproven by the two of us. I found what [MENTION=204]FineLine[/MENTION] said regarding Fe being an inferior function for istp and thats the reason you handle it wrongly, not fair nor right. The thing is FineLine you said that you yourself have adapted to Fe-styles and now live better with that, but you do not have any Fe at all. ISTPs have Fe and they show it a lot, without the need for adapting. If you maybe think of the best Jackie Chan films, under the premise he would be an istp, then that sort of caring nature he has, is the Fe expression of inferior F. A better example would be Rocky with Sylvester Stallone. He always played that hard italian dude but had a soft spot. Or Bud Spencer...
Of course those are fictional but I know istps who are like that in real life and in their ways to treat people they are always fair and that automatically. In fact istps have a strong demand for respecting each others in a group, respecting individuality and staying fair. Thats one of the strongest Fe expressions there is and thats tho, like you said istps only have inferior Fe.

What KDude said here, I can perfectly understand. He was disappointed because a person he trusted disappointed him. For that you dont need to be an Fe user, thats a thing anybody would ever want, disregardless of his type. Then again "group dynamics" isnt really Fe. I mean the nazis in WWII demanded certain group dynamics but the dynamics werent at all Fe.

To me in the most basic sense Fe just means "having the ability to feel like others feel". The majority of Fi users appear egoistic to an Fe user, while the majority of Fe users prolly appears overcaring to Fi users. The key of successful Fe is not to think of yourself allday long but to take the time, imagine how the day or the week was for a friend of yours, imagine what you would feel in that situation and then to treat him like you'ld know how he feels. That needs a lot of practice or talent but makes life a lot easier for you.
Still as it is with all things the balance is key, being too altruistic does help noone. And Fe users have troubles solving their own problems or thinking deeply about emotions, analyzing them, picking them apart. For that a Fi user is the way better chef.

So bottom line, Fe to me aint about rules or regulations or religion or group dynamics, it is first of all the ability to being able to truly feel like another person would and being able to anticipate what he'ld like from you now. Every other interpretation is lifting the Fe function to a level when it becomes torn-apart for some sorts of dogmae.
 
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[...]The other thing about "Fe is adapting to the group dynamics" is a thing that can be disproven by the two of us. I found what [MENTION=204]FineLine[/MENTION] said regarding Fe being an inferior function for istp and thats the reason you handle it wrongly, not fair nor right. The thing is FineLine you said that you yourself have adapted to Fe-styles and now live better with that, but you do not have any Fe at all. ISTPs have Fe and they show it a lot, without the need for adapting. If you maybe think of the best Jackie Chan films, under the premise he would be an istp, then that sort of caring nature he has, is the Fe expression of inferior F. A better example would be Rocky with Sylvester Stallone. He always played that hard italian dude but had a soft spot. Or Bud Spencer...[...]

Yeah, I basically agree with what you’re saying.

My point was that KDude is looking at Fe “from the inside” (as an Fe-user) and I’m looking at it “from the outside” (as a non-Fe-user). From KDude’s vantage point, it’s easy to disparage Fe or at least not have much esteem for it. He lives with it constantly and even struggles with it when it shows up in others and works against him. Whereas from my vantage point, Fe is something of a revelation, something to be learned about, a set of new tools to be mastered.

I’m not doubting the authenticity of an ISTP’s experience of Fe. But for me, KDude’s input doesn’t answer the OP: What is Fe at its best?

For me in particular, Fe is best when I can actually put it to use in my life. For me, as a non-Fe-user, “Fe at its best” boils down to one simple thing: What specific tools or tricks can I learn from it to improve my life?

[...] So bottom line, Fe to me aint about rules or regulations or religion or group dynamics, it is first of all the ability to being able to truly feel like another person would and being able to anticipate what he'ld like from you now. Every other interpretation is lifting the Fe function to a level when it becomes torn-apart for some sorts of dogmae.

This is your angle on Fe. But again: For me, as a non-Fe-user, it doesn’t do enough. It’s just a definition. For me, it doesn’t answer the OP: What’s Fe at its best? I’m not saying that you’re wrong or that KDude is wrong. I’m just saying that everyone is going to have a different opinion about what represents “Fe at its best.”

For me, as a non-Fe-user, “Fe at its best” boils down to one simple thing: What specific tools or tricks can I learn from it to improve my life?
 
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[...] For me, as a non-Fe-user, “Fe at its best” boils down to one simple thing: What specific tools or tricks can I learn from it to improve my life?

As part of my own definition of "Fe at its best," I already gave the example of using a watch alarm to know when to end social meetings. It’s not specifically an Fe thing, but it kind of mimics a faculty that some Fe users seem to have.

Here is another example of “Fe at its best” for me (as a non-Fe-user). This is a cross-post from another old thread where I posted:

It’s actually very easy to be the most fascinating and interesting person in the world. There are three simple steps.

1. Input this rule: The deepest and most important psychological drive in humans is the desire to be mirrored or reflected in the eyes of the people around them. This is why trolls troll; it’s also why millionaires strive to become rich and build empires.

People want to be mirrored/reflected by other people. If you can do that for them, you will be fascinating and interesting to them.

2. How do you reflect people? There are 2 steps: Empathize; and then ask for further details. Examples: a) “Glad to hear it! Tell me more!” b) “I’m so sorry to hear that. What happened?” c) “Wow, that’s interesting. So how is that working out?”

Two important notes: 1) When empathizing, your face should reflect the emotion you’re expressing (smile for happiness, look sad for sadness). Practice in front of a mirror. 2) When asking for details, there are lots of ways to draw out the most sullen conversation partner. Repeat the last word they said back to them as a question. Or listen to their intonation when they talk and ask about the things that they emphasize or repeat. See self-help books on shyness and improving conversational skills if you want more such tips.

3. Practice makes perfect. Join social groups, book discussion groups, hiking clubs, etc. and practice, practice, practice. It will feel fake at first. But it’s a primary survival skill, so practice it and get good at it.

Furthermore, over time you’ll meet some people with some genuinely interesting stories, and you’ll genuinely empathize with what they have to say. Keep it up for long enough, and you’ll actually start to find other people interesting. Hard to imagine now, but it will in fact happen.

[...]

It’s a funny little truism about human life: To be fascinating and interesting, you have to take an interest in others. The second you ask others to take an interest in you, you become a bore and a loser.

This was something that I only learned when I started paying attention to Fe modes of interacting with people. From my own natural Fi vantage point, I always thought that social success proceeded from my own ability to be entertaining or fascinating. But learning about Fe made me realize the opposite: That I need to take an interest in others in order to be truly interesting to others.

Hence: This is another example of “Fe at its best.” :)
 

entropie

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Yeah, I basically agree with what you’re saying.

My point was that KDude is looking at Fe “from the inside” (as an Fe-user) and I’m looking at it “from the outside” (as a non-Fe-user). From KDude’s vantage point, it’s easy to disparage Fe or at least not have much esteem for it. He lives with it constantly and even struggles with it when it shows up in others and works against him. Whereas from my vantage point, Fe is something of a revelation, something to be learned about, a set of new tools to be mastered.

I’m not doubting the authenticity of an ISTP’s experience of Fe. But for me, KDude’s input doesn’t answer the OP: What is Fe at its best?

For me in particular, Fe is best when I can actually put it to use in my life. For me, as a non-Fe-user, “Fe at its best” boils down to one simple thing: What specific tools or tricks can I learn from it to improve my life?

Well and you are interpreting it from a Fi PoV which isnt objective as well. :/

I can help myself but I find your attitude offensive. Now you have said three times that you want to use Fe as a tool to get along better. Thats pretty manipulative and egoistic. And is that what is "Fe at its best?" ? A tool to get of people what you want ?

Thats what I wanted to say and may it be a Fe-influenced standpoint or not. Fe aint a language to learn to get out of people what you want, Fe is an attitude. And if you are only faking that role, people will notice nevertheless.
 
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Well and you are interpreting it from a Fi PoV which isnt objective as well. :/ .

Again, I’m not trying to be objective or to come up with some universal definition of Fe. I’m just trying to explain that “Fe at its best” is going to mean different things to different people. What’s wrong with having different opinions on what one can learn from Fe?

I can help myself but I find your attitude offensive. Now you have said three times that you want to use Fe as a tool to get along better. Thats pretty manipulative and egoistic. And is that what is "Fe at its best?" ? A tool to get of people what you want ?

Thats what I wanted to say and may it be a Fe-influenced standpoint or not. Fe aint a language to learn to get out of people what you want, Fe is an attitude. And if you are only faking that role, people will notice nevertheless.

I explained that at length in my first post in the thread. Fe is a mystery to me. I’m trying to learn about it so that interactions with people aren’t such a mystery.

What's wrong with learning and applying a new function? Why do you put such a cynical spin on my motives?
 
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[MENTION=4109]entropie[/MENTION]:

If I said that I was learning about Te, and I talked about how learning some time management tricks helped me to organize my life: Would you also object to that as well and call me manipulative and a fake?
 

entropie

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Again, I’m not trying to be objective or to come up with some universal definition of Fe. I’m just trying to explain that “Fe at its best” is going to mean different things to different people. What’s wrong with having different opinions on what one can learn from Fe?

You can have a different opinion, by all means, I'ld even encourage that. But when you want different opinions and interpretations you cant judge KDude's opinion as a result of Fe being inferior to him. On the quest for "Fe at its best" he has the better starting point to talk about the theorethical function because he has it; you do not. And what I wanted to tell you as new input is that what would appear as "hurt inferior Fe" sometimes is the most pure Fe, because the usage of Fe of dominant Fe people sometimes is clouded behind some social norms, like Lightyear brought the example regarding England. On the quest for "something at its best" I think its a good approach, when you strip it from all influences and find a pure form. From that form then you can start to add things to the basic form again and interprete the usage of the basic form plus additions. But you cant start judging a thing whose essence and background you do not know.

I explained that at length in my first post in the thread. Fe is a mystery to me. I’m trying to learn about it so that interactions with people aren’t such a mystery. What's wrong with learning and applying a new function? Why do you put such a cynical spin on my motives?

Because its not "Fe at its best" to get along in society better. "Fe at its best" is imagining how it is for others and that never means automatically to get better along in society. To get along in society you need to be fake, you need to be manipulative, clever, evil, egoistic and unsensitive. All Fe qualities wont help you shit to get along better anywhere.

And thats my point: "applieing to social norms" unequals "Fe usage", they may be connected but aint an equation. If you are a good person and honestly care for others, this never qutomatically means that you get along good in society, on the contrary. And that is what I wanted to tell you
 
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[..]Because its not "Fe at its best" to get along in society better. "Fe at its best" is imagining how it is for others and that never means automatically to get better along in society. To get along in society you need to be fake, you need to be manipulative, clever, evil, egoistic and unsensitive. All Fe qualities wont help you shit to get along better anywhere.

And thats my point: "applieing to social norms" unequals "Fe usage", they may be connected but aint an equation. If you are a good person and honestly care for others, this never qutomatically means that you get along good in society, on the contrary. And that is what I wanted to tell you

So either you have it or you don't? A poor, self-centered Fi-user shouldn't bother trying to take more interest in the people and the world around him? Because that would make him a fake? :laugh:
 

entropie

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[MENTION=4109]entropie[/MENTION]:

If I said that I was learning about Te, and I talked about how learning some time management tricks helped me to organize my life: Would you also object to that as well and call me manipulative and a fake?

I dont want to insult you or call you manipulative or fake. I am reacting to your snap-shot of Fe and try to show you something else, so you get new input about this thing. Nothing personal I know you are a clever dude.

Te and Fe cant really be compared. Under extrem pressure and strain nobody who sucks at Te could fake it. If you suck at math that wont change. But thats different with the F-function. To know peoples ethics, you need intuition, empathy and experience with people. To know if someone is a good planer, you just have to listen to him 5 minutes and you know it.
 

entropie

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So either you have it or you don't? A poor, self-centered Fi-user shouldn't bother trying to take more interest in the people and the world around him? Because that will make him a fake? :D

prima donna infp ! :)

Its my opinion up there, I cant say that I am right or wrong. But I can tell you from my life experience has my interpretation and usage of Fe brought me the deepest trust with people. And having the trust of people is way more better than just being apple to apply to social norms. Make of it what you want.
 
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