Ns are smarter than Ss?!

[EcK]

That's because us "really" intelligent people know money doesn't matter much LMAO

Also a valid argument. Though I think 'cash' obsession is based on multiple factors.

For example: I don't really 'care' about money. But I do care about achievement. I am more capable than the average guy (ie: in my experience I can equate or surpass someone's skill in a professional field applying less effort that they did).

Combine the two and I tend to have a greater ability to generate cash than average. Though my being an ENTP is certainly a handicap.

But take your average cliché high achieving estj with a decent iq and education. While (on average) I consider most of them to be soulless uninventive corporate drone they tend to get to the top. (I do respect smart estjs though)

Same, and to a greater degree, with ENTJs.

We're only talking about correlations here at the end of the day.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

That's because us "really" intelligent people know money doesn't matter much LMAO

Or get sidetracked into lower paying careers that are more fulfilling to them....

Or there lack common sense....

Or drive to dominate...

 

[Poki]

Or get sidetracked into lower paying careers that are more fulfilling to them....

Or there lack common sense....

Or drive to dominate...

Only reason I move up is because of capability, not a desire to prove mys3lf

 

[EcK]

Or get sidetracked into lower paying careers that are more fulfilling to them....

Or there lack common sense....

Or drive to dominate...

As I was telling [MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] there are alot of other factors.
Women tend to be less interested in highly technical and competitive fields (also highly paid). They also tend to work less hours, take more vacations and so on. That's part of the reason behind the '77 cents for one dollar' myth. (because if it were true everyone would be hiring women exclusively and stacking the extra cash mile high - same applies to other groups)

INFPs are among the lowest or the lowest average income wise. Yet they have, on average, high iqs. etc.
etc.

I mean hell, I'm sure there's a study somewhere about the average income of high iq psychopaths that could prove interesting. (over represented in corporate boards)

 

[miss fortune]

I'm pretty good at finding what I need if I really need it, whether it's money or somewhere to stay or automotive repairs or a job or really pretty much anything

however, I'm not particularly ambitious... as long as I have the things I need to survive and enough left over for vacations I'm pretty content... working isn't something that I really do for fun and money is just an object that I have to get to trade for the things I need to survive... once I have that I'm perfectly content to actually spend the rest of my time doing what I want to do, which to me seems smarter than spending my time not enjoying myself so that I can buy more things that I won't have time to enjoy

 

[Poki]

I'm pretty good at finding what I need if I really need it, whether it's money or somewhere to stay or automotive repairs or a job or really pretty much anything

however, I'm not particularly ambitious... as long as I have the things I need to survive and enough left over for vacations I'm pretty content... working isn't something that I really do for fun and money is just an object that I have to get to trade for the things I need to survive... once I have that I'm perfectly content to actually spend the rest of my time doing what I want to do, which to me seems smarter than spending my time not enjoying myself so that I can buy more things that I won't have time to enjoy

Very well said imo

 

[EcK]

I'm pretty good at finding what I need if I really need it, whether it's money or somewhere to stay or automotive repairs or a job or really pretty much anything

however, I'm not particularly ambitious... as long as I have the things I need to survive and enough left over for vacations I'm pretty content... working isn't something that I really do for fun and money is just an object that I have to get to trade for the things I need to survive... once I have that I'm perfectly content to actually spend the rest of my time doing what I want to do, which to me seems smarter than spending my time not enjoying myself so that I can buy more things that I won't have time to enjoy

Good point sis.
Now one thing that, in the past - And I can you can relate to that - has pushed me 'up' hierarchically was my abhorrence to being managed by people I see as incompetent and or stupid.

But power for the sake of power and money for the sake of money? I don't find it a horrid idea but it just doesn't motivate me.

 

[miss fortune]

Good point sis.
Now one thing that, in the past - And I can you can relate to that - has pushed me 'up' hierarchically was my abhorrence to being managed by people I see as incompetent.
But power for the sake of power and money for the sake of money? I don't find it a horrid idea but it just doesn't motivate me.

I usually end up getting moved up when it's realized that I do all of the manager's work when their level of incompetence irks me too much... they usually just do the application processes either when I'm just not feeling like filling things out or when I'm not at work, which is mostly why I'm still where I am

it doesn't really bother me enough to do anything about it at the moment... I'm in school right now as well and my needs are taken care of... and I get away with telling people who technically are supposed to have more power than me what to do on a regular basis

 

[EcK]

I usually end up getting moved up when it's realized that I do all of the manager's work when their level of incompetence irks me too much... they usually just do the application processes either when I'm just not feeling like filling things out or when I'm not at work, which is mostly why I'm still where I am

it doesn't really bother me enough to do anything about it at the moment... I'm in school right now as well and my needs are taken care of... and I get away with telling people who technically are supposed to have more power than me what to do on a regular basis

A good way to summarize my philosophy when it comes to this would be:
if with 5 years on the job someone is as competent as a guy with 15. Then the guy with 15 year experience is of LESS value to the company and therefore, everything else being equal, should be managed by rather than manage his counterpart.

Most hierarchical structures don't make much sense to me. ie: it's important to pass on hard earned knowledge - but you don't need to put someone 'above' someone else to do that. In fact quite often people keep knowledge to themselves as to retain power. Especially when faced with potential competition.

I can't count the times I've worked with people who barely gave me enough information to work while helping other people they don't see as a potential threat (whether consciously or not) or can get things from (whether and ego boost or delegate some of their own work - which just doesn't work with me - I have a finely tuned bullshit detector). It's tiring.

In my first full time job I was promoted several times over about 18 months. The promotions started because once I started working directly under the owner, so I was not 'competition' but could only be an asset. My 'manager' at that place was fired and I spoke to the owner about some of my ideas which had been ignored by the aforementioned guy, I then pretty much 'created' my first promotion by making new proposals to the board. If I had to deal with my previous managers cock blocking it would never have happened.

So at this point in my life I don't think I was 'directly' taught anything/much by a 'manager'. Though I would really love to.

I YEARN for it.

 

[Poki]

Good point sis.
Now one thing that, in the past - And I can you can relate to that - has pushed me 'up' hierarchically was my abhorrence to being managed by people I see as incompetent and or stupid.

A good way to summarize it would be: if with 5 years on the job someone is as competent as a guy with 15. Then the guy with 15 year experience is of LESS value to the company and therefore, everything else being equal, should be managed by rather than manage his counterpart.

Most hierarchical structures don't make much sense to me. ie: it's important to pass on hard earned knowledge - but you don't need to put someone 'above' someone else to do that. In fact quite often people keep knowledge to themselves as to retain power. Especially faced with potential competition. I can't count the times I've worked with people who barely gave me enough information to work while helping other people they don't see as a potential threat (whether consciously or not). It's tiring. So at this point in my life I don't think I was 'directly' taught anything/much by a 'manager'. Though I would really love to.

But power for the sake of power and money for the sake of money? I don't find it a horrid idea but it just doesn't motivate me.

It's actually fear of being outdone. I do find it a horrid idea for society as a whole. You hold back the competent and better of society, company at the expense of self. That is selfish to the extreme. The kicker is that these people you fear may have been the one who brings you up with them as they rise. Of course the fear of them being like you and suppressing you is great since it's driven by self which already has the complete understanding of judgment towards that way of thought and fear since that who you already are. Trapping yourself with people less then you are as a means of controlling where you stand instead of surrounding by everyone who can help you up. Yeah, geniuses....not

 

[miss fortune]

A good way to summarize my philosophy when it comes to this would be:
if with 5 years on the job someone is as competent as a guy with 15. Then the guy with 15 year experience is of LESS value to the company and therefore, everything else being equal, should be managed by rather than manage his counterpart.

Most hierarchical structures don't make much sense to me. ie: it's important to pass on hard earned knowledge - but you don't need to put someone 'above' someone else to do that. In fact quite often people keep knowledge to themselves as to retain power. Especially faced with potential competition.

I can't count the times I've worked with people who barely gave me enough information to work while helping other people they don't see as a potential threat (whether consciously or not). It's tiring. So at this point in my life I don't think I was 'directly' taught anything/much by a 'manager'. Though I would really love to.

I've pretty much come to accept that most people get promoted by being good at being interviewed and kissing ass, but to be taken seriously by the department that's being run you need to prove yourself competent. I work my ass off and jump in to fix problems whenever I see one arising and I have no problem doing the dirty work myself... I also fix fuck ups by my manager and advise his managers on what the next steps in operation should be because I'm the one who they ask for advice on that. People in my department will do what I ask them to without protesting because they know that I'm not asking them for anything I wouldn't do myself and the higher ups take what I say seriously because they know that I know the place from top to bottom... sadly, it's HR that makes the hiring decisions I piss off HR by accident on a fairly regular basis (usually dress code or language violations). HR, of course, has no idea how things are run...

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I've pretty much come to accept that most people get promoted by being good at being interviewed and kissing ass, but to be taken seriously by the department that's being run you need to prove yourself competent. I work my ass off and jump in to fix problems whenever I see one arising and I have no problem doing the dirty work myself... I also fix fuck ups by my manager and advise his managers on what the next steps in operation should be because I'm the one who they ask for advice on that. People in my department will do what I ask them to without protesting because they know that I'm not asking them for anything I wouldn't do myself and the higher ups take what I say seriously because they know that I know the place from top to bottom... sadly, it's HR that makes the hiring decisions I piss off HR by accident on a fairly regular basis (usually dress code or language violations). HR, of course, has no idea how things are run...

HR field defines incompetence..... such a disaster

 

[EcK]

It's actually fear of being outdone. I do find it a horrid idea for society as a whole. You hold back the competent and better of society, company at the expense of self. That is selfish to the extreme. The kicker is that these people you fear may have been the one who brings you up with them as they rise. Of course the fear of them being like you and suppressing you is great since it's driven by self which already has the complete understanding of judgment towards that way of thought and fear since that who you already are. Trapping yourself with people less then you are as a means of controlling where you stand instead of surrounding by everyone who can help you up. Yeah, geniuses....not

In my first full time job I was promoted several times over about 18 months. The promotions started because my manager got fired and the owner took over in the interim. So I was not 'competition' but could only be an asset.

I spoke to the owner about some of my ideas which had been ignored by the aforementioned guy, I then pretty much 'created' my first promotion by making new proposals to the board. If I had to deal with my previous managers cock blocking it would never have happened.

 

[EcK]

I've pretty much come to accept that most people get promoted by being good at being interviewed and kissing ass, but to be taken seriously by the department that's being run you need to prove yourself competent. I work my ass off and jump in to fix problems whenever I see one arising and I have no problem doing the dirty work myself... I also fix fuck ups by my manager and advise his managers on what the next steps in operation should be because I'm the one who they ask for advice on that. People in my department will do what I ask them to without protesting because they know that I'm not asking them for anything I wouldn't do myself and the higher ups take what I say seriously because they know that I know the place from top to bottom... sadly, it's HR that makes the hiring decisions I piss off HR by accident on a fairly regular basis (usually dress code or language violations). HR, of course, has no idea how things are run...

Yeah... I've been accused of over-cursing quite a few times...
It's a problem.

 

[miss fortune]

Yeah... I've been accused of over-cursing quite a few times...
It's a problem.

if people would be more competent I would have less of a reason to swear profusely at work

 

[EcK]

if people would be more competent I would have less of a reason to swear profusely at work

I just tell people I'm French when it happens.
Though I got better at it. I used to swear like a sailor. Ok not as bad but still. It was to the point where people who spent time with me started swearing as well

I think it's related to how I've learnt English - by watching movies such as Pulp Fiction

 

[Poki]

In my first full time job I was promoted several times over about 18 months. The promotions started because once I started working directly under the owner, so I was not 'competition' but could only be an asset. My 'manager' at that place was fired and I spoke to the owner about some of my ideas which had been ignored by the aforementioned guy, I then pretty much 'created' my first promotion by making new proposals to the board. If I had to deal with my previous managers cock blocking it would never have happened.

I have been accused of hoarding info because I know everything and suck at documenting. Yet I have sent email after email and verbally explaining things and such. Willing to give anyone info on anything. I have created an excess of knowledge to the point where to much falls back on me. I will gladly hand off anything so I can continue to grow and not get bogged down with everything. I am the only one who will dig into and learn anything though without restrictions.

 

[EcK]

I have been accused of hoarding info because I know everything and suck at documenting. Yet I have sent email after email and verbally explaining things and such. Willing to give anyone info on anything. I have created an excess of knowledge to the point where to much falls back on me. I will gladly hand off anything so I can continue to grow and not get bogged down with everything. I am the only one who will dig into and learn anything though without restrictions.

Well that's another issue I've also had. When you become 'mr knows everything' and people expect you to just fix with everything, always have an answer etc.
As a P it pains me to have to organize other people's work because it's already a challenge for me.

And the most effective way of doing so in the long run is probably documentation. But if i started making documentation I would probably try to make the 'perfect documentation' and spend 10 times more time than needed etc. .

I find I prefer to work with people who are already highly skilled and use the minimum of documentation needed.
For example, in a web project. The difference between a smart developer and a dumb one might be as much as 30/70% more work for me (making documentation about obvious stuff, having to make corrections and fixes on common sense stuff, having to code it myself because of the deadline and the time it takes to just explain something etc.)

My dream devs just need a doc with all relevant login/pass, design, a scrum planning, a 30 min chat tops. Maybe set it up on invision. And actually tell me if something should be changed.

Annoying devs will need: a freaking GANT CHART as if we're in the 80ies, documentation noone will ever read, a map of how pages are connected on the site (despite already having an invision link). I will make him a list of plugins he can use - he will ignore it and not animate the site properly. They will either complain about some technical stuff they don't agree with (instead of just telling me what they think we should change so I can get it approved right away) or WORSE : they'll make it that way and let me know 3 months later than 1 week could have been saved if done slightly differently as they already had code ready for that. Or use previously developed code without asking me - then complain when I tell them that this was a core feature which could NOT be modified.


Client will not be fully satisfied and end up 'changing' quite a few things on the site. Dev will be pissed off that I'm asking for quality and how dare I ask for 4 more hours of changes on the site after he only added 40 hours to my workload. etc.

It makes me want to kill.

 

[chubber]

INFPs are among the lowest or the lowest average income wise. Yet they have, on average, high iqs. etc.
etc.

This is the sad part about INxPs. Incredibly high IQ, but academia will never pay out their worth.

 

[EcK]

This is the sad part about INxPs. Incredibly high IQ, but academia will never pay out their worth.

Well. depends. there are quite a few dumb intps and infps on this forum. Some smart ones too.
I guess it's difficult to expect a three digit salary for teaching kids what they could read in a book in as much or less time.