• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Introverted Thinking's enemy

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
A lot of what I've heard, especially recently has been for the notion that Ni conflicts with Ti. Not that it gets in the way like a dam, but more like a fork in the river.

I can say I certainly agree with this, but I don't think it's always true. I can just as easily see Ni and Ti work together.

Of course I don't by any means think that in these situations they will both end at the same point or that they reach for the same things. I only suggest that they can work in harmony without canceling one another out.

I'd like to see what others think on this, and why.

Emphasis on why. Give an example or something.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Also, let it be known that in your hypothetical, the functions needn't be used by two different people.

This thread is a double faced nickel.

Perhaps we're talking about a Ti dominnant and an Ni dominant collaborating on a project, or we're talking about some individual who's, by whatever weirdness, stumbled into a situation where both functions can appropriately work together or combat one another.

Your choice.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Ni doesn't strictly conflict with Ti, but it certainly can -- for example, INFJs have both Ni and Ti, and most of them don't appear overtly insane... well, you know.

The idea that Ni conflicts with Ti is probably because of with INTJs and INTPs, Ni is the INTP's senex/witch and Ti is the INTJs senex/witch. In such situations, both could lead to criticism and the destruction that either of them have created, which would lead to the misconceptions that they don't play well together. They can, but in certain situations they won't.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Yeah all that I'd considered before. But I've gotten to a point where, and extrapolating from your posts, you're there too, we mathematize typology too much.

People as a species are not so formulaic.

I believe there are millions of expressions of even only a single function. Even more ways we can concoct function recipes.

I'm hoping to see some more broadened ideas, but I agree.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Yeah all that I'd considered before. But I've gotten to a point where, and extrapolating from your posts, you're there too, we mathematize typology too much.

People as a species are not so formulaic.

I believe there are millions of expressions of even only a single function. Even more ways we can concoct function recipes.

I'm hoping to see some more broadened ideas, but I agree.

Of course they aren't so formulaic. I was just stating the obvious, as I am apt to do sometimes.

If we were not to go on the archetypes of people structures and just to go by the essence of the functions themselves, I can easily see how Ni and Ti could get into arguments. Ti seeks to understand the 'natural order' of things whereas Ni seeks to put everything in relative perspective, into a perspective that can easily be shifted according to needs. This is why you never see Ni and Ti that close to each other in any archetypes, aside from the whole mathematical aspect of typology. For an INFJ, who has dominant Ni and tertiary Ti, where Ni and Fe fail or cannot be applied, they supposedly fall back on Ti for understanding, usually with limited success.

If that helps you any more.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
I'm not looking for help. Believe me, I'm quite familiar with the 'natural order' of each of the functions.

I'm just looking for extra ideas -- other manifestations that I may not have come across yet, but can be on the lookout for.

That's the direction I want this thread to go.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I'm not looking for help. Believe me, I'm quite familiar with the 'natural order' of each of the functions.

I'm just looking for extra ideas -- other manifestations that I may not have come across yet, but can be on the lookout for.

That's the direction I want this thread to go.

Okay then. I'll try to think of something more creative, then.

Just for the record, how do you imagine Ni and Ti working together?
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
Ni and Ti work great together for me. i don't see how they would get in the way of each other as long as they're both well developed.

Ni sees information in the context of abstract experience. Ti analyzes how it fits.

or, Ti can analyze some data and Ni sees how it abstractly relates to experience.

i guess those are the same things pretty much.

Ni (or Ne) is induction, Ti (or Te) is logical deduction. both are necessary for groundbreaking ideas.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
The differing semantics implicate different situations. One uses Ni first and then employs Ti for verification. The other uses Ti first, and Ni perceives Ti's formulation.

Can you bring an antithesis to the table?
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
well if your abstract experience (Ni) doesn't like Ti-like reasoning, Ni will constantly mistrust Ti's conclusions and second guess them. this is probably the case with many ISFPs, for example.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Well Ti by itself doesn't hardly trust its own conclusions. It likes Pe 'cause Pe will test them out. Ni will not. There's another place they won't collaborate -- experimentation.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
The differing semantics implicate different situations. One uses Ni first and then employs Ti for verification. The other uses Ti first, and Ni perceives Ti's formulation.

Can you bring an antithesis to the table?

It's when Ni isn't interested in verification outside what can easily be perceived and Ti doesn't want perception beyond what it has already perceived.

The verification of Ti is quite final. Ni wants to stretch out possibilities and perception very deeply and wouldn't want Ti interfering. Also, if Ti already KNOWS what's going on, why would we have Ni in the first place? Ni wishes to distort reality. Any verification of the Ti variety would cut off this ability.

Ti would get angry when Ni will take what Ti decides is 'truth' and will continually stretch it, put it in multiple contexts, and do too many things with what Ti decides is extrapolation of what Ti has found. Too much distortion for Ti's tastes.

Although, this is just repeating what I've just said. Each is stretching things in a direction that each other doesn't want. It would be extremely useful to be able to switch back and forth between the two, but that isn't usually possible.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
why wouldn't someone using Ni want Ti "interfering"? Ti can analyze how things fit into Ni's explorations. Ni by itself is too openended to really do anything. it needs a judging function. extroverted judging kindof puts an end to Ni's exploration, but introverted judging can analyze just for analyzing's sake.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Perhaps some of what Ti does will halt Ni's mental travel, but it might just as easily, even in the same situation work furiously to devise a method to support the very same exploration.

In fact, it's when Ti can't deduce anything in favor of intuition that it deems it irrational and puts a stop to it. Still, intuition, even extraverted intuition, (despite its worldly inclination discouraged by Ti's damnation) might like to play with a possibility even after Ti says it's a nono.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I was trying to explain how they wouldn't go together, not as how they would go together. They can go together, but I was trying to say how they'd obviously conflict. If they weren't able to find how they could support each other, they would fight.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
yeah. seems like they can work well together -- but there are certainly ways they wouldn't work very well. same is probably true for any functions that don't pair up to form a type.
 

rhinosaur

Just a statistic
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
1,464
MBTI Type
INTP
A lot of what I've heard, especially recently has been for the notion that Ni conflicts with Ti. Not that it gets in the way like a dam, but more like a fork in the river.

I can say I certainly agree with this, but I don't think it's always true. I can just as easily see Ni and Ti work together.

Of course I don't by any means think that in these situations they will both end at the same point or that they reach for the same things. I only suggest that they can work in harmony without canceling one another out.

I'd like to see what others think on this, and why.

Emphasis on why. Give an example or something.

Well, if I really am an ISTP, I would have both. I identify strongly with both, and don't think they're incompatible. I would have an awful lot of internal conflict if they weren't compatible, right?

Ti is how I spend most of my day, in solemn contemplation, just thinking about random stuff.

Ni is like a flash of the big picture that helps direct my thinking.

If you really want an example, the other day I was on the back porch listening to the cars on some distant road, and I got this idea of the energy from the cars moving along the surface of the earth. It was rather indescribable, and as I'm sure you have already assumed, this was probably from introverted intuition.

Well, after I got that flash of vision or whatever it was, it got me thinking about energy and entropy, and how the world is changing, and what would happen if you took all that energy from below ground and concentrated it in these rivers of highways above ground. That was the introverted thinking.

So like I implied, the introverted intuition helps give me weird new things to think about. They don't always make sense, and I rule some of them out with the introverted thinking logic. The ones that haven't been ruled out go into my mental world-view; the big picture.
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
MBTI Type
type
are you looking for an example where both functions are being used equally? As in, it's not Ni-Ti nor Ti-Ni, but equal usage of both at one time? (and then the question: is that possible?)

my Ni is almost as strong as my Ne.

am wondering if a psychic would be an Ni/Ti user.
 

"?"

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
1,167
MBTI Type
TiSe
When you say being compatible, I am inferring you to mean work together. If so, are we not missing an obvious basic principle of Jung? Two functions of the same attitude (E/I) cannot occupy the same space. You are either Ti-ing or Ni-ing, not both simultaneously.

As for being similar I understand that they both like complexity. However Ni foresees implications in lieu of external data. It may be fuzzy. Ti analyzes but not without sufficient external data. It clarifies and defines something based on principles. Ni is future and/or past oriented (like Si) and Ti is present oriented. Ni conceptualizes new ways of seeing things, Ti checks whatever has their immediate attention, for inconsistencies.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
Ni conceptualizes new ways of seeing things

it seems to me like all Ni does is see new information in the context of it's giant conceptual framework. Ni by itself cannot change its own framework, either. it can only tell a judging function where the new data fits. if the judging function outputs that the fit isn't so great, Ni will take that as input and then output a place where [both the original data and the judgment] fit. the judgment function then processes that. the process repeats until the judging function sees no inconsistency in the placement of the original data. the overall framework of Ni is thus changed.

insights are actually the work of the judging function analyzing some piece of the overall Ni framework in response to new data.
 
Top