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7th Function Bias and Literary Archetype

Haphazard

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After doing a bit of research I found something interesting.

Ni-dominants are usually cast as the villains in fiction. If they're not outright villains, usually the best they get is a distrusted position on the hero's side. Now, I saw a theory about how this bias could have been formed. If we take that American society is mainly based on ESTJ type (now don't attack me on this one, this is a generalization), then Ni would be in the 'deceiving' role to society and would make an easy target for a villain, or at least a character to be distrusted. Whether the writer be ESTJ or not, the archetype of a deceptive character with dom Ni would be so ingrained into society and just so available that it would end up happening a lot.

I've been studying villains for a while, so I thought this was interesting because it made a lot of sense.

So, what do you think? Archetypes for MBTI were partly derived from literary archetypes, but can the reverse be true? Or is this based on a fundamentally flawed premise, and the reason why there are so many Ni villains is totally different?
 

Gabe

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yes!
What I like is how the stereotype villian always tells you all thier plan 'cause thier so proud of it and then ends with the obviously false 'and there's nothing you can do about it' right when the told you exactly what to do about it.
I don't know if the deceptive role is readily available, but what I do know is that Domni's often get the 'psycho' trap pulled on them-this is what happened to Nikola Tesla (and it didn't help that tesla was a bit of a psycho)
 

wedekit

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After doing a bit of research I found something interesting.

Ni-dominants are usually cast as the villains in fiction. If they're not outright villains, usually the best they get is a distrusted position on the hero's side. Now, I saw a theory about how this bias could have been formed. If we take that American society is mainly based on ESTJ type (now don't attack me on this one, this is a generalization), then Ni would be in the 'deceiving' role to society and would make an easy target for a villain, or at least a character to be distrusted. Whether the writer be ESTJ or not, the archetype of a deceptive character with dom Ni would be so ingrained into society and just so available that it would end up happening a lot.

I've been studying villains for a while, so I thought this was interesting because it made a lot of sense.

So, what do you think? Archetypes for MBTI were partly derived from literary archetypes, but can the reverse be true? Or is this based on a fundamentally flawed premise, and the reason why there are so many Ni villains is totally different?

This was an awesome post! It's very interesting how heroes in America do seem to have some kind of underlying "anti-visionary" theme.

I've always been very interested in how each of the 16 types could be expressed as a literary hero and villain. Some of my English professors say that the antagonist in a good novel is the same personality as a protagonist, only with different goals (and typically the antagonist has some degree of insanity). So I wonder what the good and evil archetypes of each would be.

Meh. Someone needs to write out a MBTI version of this Amazon.com: The Literary Enneagram: Characters from the Inside Out: Judith Searle: Books.
 

Haphazard

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I think a part of the problem is that while short bursts of intense creativity are encouraged (tertiary Ne? Maybe), something that plumbs the depth like dominant (or even auxilliary) Ni is discouraged.

Probably because one thinks that Ni, without a root like Si, would easily stray over to the dark-side because of its depth of perception? That these out-of-the-ordinary point of views would quickly turn somebody to immorality -- or what the general consensus appears as so, even though this isn't the case.

I don't know. Not all INJs are are Ivan Karamazov.

"Without God and immortality, all things are permitted."
 

Kyrielle

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I think a part of the problem is that while short bursts of intense creativity are encouraged (tertiary Ne? Maybe), something that plumbs the depth like dominant (or even auxilliary) Ni is discouraged.

Probably because one thinks that Ni, without a root like Si, would easily stray over to the dark-side because of its depth of perception? That these out-of-the-ordinary point of views would quickly turn somebody to immorality -- or what the general consensus appears as so, even though this isn't the case.

I don't know. Not all INJs are are Ivan Karamazov.

"Without God and immortality, all things are permitted."

From what I've experienced...it seems like "Oh, because you can see from the point of view of the bad guy/crazy man/serial killer/what-have-you, you must be evil/insane/crazy somewhere inside." Which isn't at all true, just because someone is able to entertain the idea of what it would be like to be in the position of the villain, does not mean they would choose to side with that person.
 

Haphazard

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From what I've experienced...it seems like "Oh, because you can see from the point of view of the bad guy/crazy man/serial killer/what-have-you, you must be evil/insane/crazy somewhere inside." Which isn't at all true, just because someone is able to entertain the idea of what it would be like to be in the position of the villain, does not mean they would choose to side with that person.

Just because someone can see that Hannibal Lecter might not exactly be a 'psychopath,' that there might not necessarily be anything wrong with him, doesn't mean that they'd let him out.

I mean, they may be able to see another point of view, but they're not stupid. If they let him out, it's still the lives of the many versus the life of one person.

Entertaining a crazy idea does not necessarily mean that you'll follow through. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll come back to the 'safe' side, either.
 

Domino

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I should think that any Introverted type would be cast well as a Mastermind. I can think of many examples that include Ti as well, one of which being Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. Introverts seem inherently more mysterious and opaque in their motivations to the undiscerning eye.
 

Kyrielle

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Just because someone can see that Hannibal Lecter might not exactly be a 'psychopath,' that there might not necessarily be anything wrong with him, doesn't mean that they'd let him out.

I mean, they may be able to see another point of view, but they're not stupid. If they let him out, it's still the lives of the many versus the life of one person.

Entertaining a crazy idea does not necessarily mean that you'll follow through. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll come back to the 'safe' side, either.

Precisely. :)
 

Colors

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Hmmm, but aren't heroes usually ISFP? ... I don't think ESTJ heroes are that common compared to ISFP and ESFP heroes in fiction.

What are some famous Ni-dominant villains? (that we're speaking of)
 

Haphazard

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Hmmm, but aren't heroes usually ISFP? ... I don't think ESTJ heroes are that common compared to ISFP and ESFP heroes in fiction.

What are some famous Ni-dominant villains? (that we're speaking of)

An ESTJ hero isn't the point -- the point is to scare the audience with these villains. Also, it's not necessary that even the author be ESTJ (I'm inclined to say that most authors are NOT ESTJ), it's just in the underlying fabric of the culture, which would bring out dominant Ni villains.

Also, an ISFP would have tertiary Ni -- enough to maybe appeal them to this 'dark side' that Dominant Ni comes up with, but not enough to join them. It's enough to give some connection, some proof that they may actually be a little alike, but not enough to draw the 'good' character to be 'evil.'

Just from the typelogic INTJ page alone:

Cassius (Julius Caesar)
Mr. Darcy (Pride and Prejudice)
Hannibal Lecter (Silence of the Lambs)
Professor Moriarty, Sherlock Holmes' nemesis
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern (Hamlet)

Hmm... most of these aren't even modern villains. Perhaps the root of this goes deeper than I first thought...
 

heart

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Yes, I can see what you say about action movies...So will women's literature will have female antagonists who are opposite to ESFJ? Or would it still be based on ESTJ?

What is our culture's female ideal type?
 

Colors

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I'm just saying that it's not necessarily true that it is a 7th function bias from ESTJ culture that results in the Ni villains- you found it just as easy to describe it as a 3rd function mistrust from an ISFP standpoint.

And why specifically Ni? I can't think of any INFJ arch-villains (if anything, in movies I'd think they'd fall into the mentor type). If anything, it's really INTJs with the most mastermind-genius-with-complex plan thing that usually gets played out... or sometimes, when the story is more "rise-against-the-structure"- the villain is an ESTJ type (but perhaps I've seen too many teen movies). Which would suggest to me a Te bias.
 

Haphazard

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I'm just saying that it's not necessarily true that it is a 7th function bias from ESTJ culture that results in the Ni villains- you found it just as easy to describe it as a 3rd function mistrust from an ISFP standpoint.

And why specifically Ni? I can't think of any INFJ arch-villains (if anything, in movies I'd think they'd fall into the mentor type). If anything, it's really INTJs with the most mastermind-genius-with-complex plan thing that usually gets played out... or sometimes, when the story is more "rise-against-the-structure"- the villain is an ESTJ type (but perhaps I've seen too many teen movies). Which would suggest to me a Te bias.

It's not 'mistrust' for these ISFP heroes, it's the appeal of Ni as tertiary. There's still some room for Ni to 'bond.' It's the risk of the dark side that's there, not necessarily a mistrust of it -- and the character is usually portrayed as 'naive' to have seen it the same way as the villain.

I'm looking at this from the standpoint of a theory. If you have enough information to prove me wrong, go ahead.

Can somebody name me some INFJ characters? The only one that I can think of at the moment is Huey Freeman from The Boondocks, and he's certainly neither. If anything, he's portrayed as the 'misguided hero.' He may have some points, but it's always the status quo that wins. Then again, that's the appeal of the show.

What I see is that the 'regime' is built in more of an ESTJ fashion, but the villain is still fundamentally Ni-dominant or Ni-auxillary. I think I overlooked Te bias because it was too goddamned simple, but I do agree, most of Te bias is in young adult stories rather than ones aimed at a wider or older audience.
 

heart

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Horatio Hornblower (in the novels, not the TV series) is INTJ, he's presented as a hero, but a misunderstood one that makes other people uncomfortable.

Micheal Corelone in the Godfather is an example of INTJ protagonist as well.

Mr Darcy is a sex symbol!
 

The WhimWham

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The 7th function is properly the "Trickster" who is usually more dubious than evil. Really, the villain can be playing any of the shadow function archetypes (i.e. Opposing Personality, Senex/Witch, Trickster or Demonic Personality), depending on their role in the story.

Hell, Tricksters can even act as catalysts with their mischief. The 7th function is not where I'd expect an outright villain to be.
 

Haphazard

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The 7th function is properly the "Trickster" who is usually more dubious than evil. Really, the villain can be playing any of the shadow function archetypes (i.e. Opposing Personality, Senex/Witch, Trickster or Demonic Personality), depending on their role in the story.

Hell, Tricksters can even act as catalysts with their mischief. The 7th function is not where I'd expect an outright villain to be.

Where would you expect it to be?
 

The WhimWham

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Where would you expect it to be?

Any of the other three.

I'm a Star Wars geek, so I'll use that as an example:

Darth Vader: Te Opposing Personality
The Emperor: Ni Senex/Witch

Or, if you've seen Terry Gilliam's Brazil, you've got Michael Palin as an Ni Opposing Personality, Mr. Helpmann as a Te Senex/Witch and Bob Hoskins is an Se Demonic Personality.

Someone like Bender in Futurama is, IMHO, a classic Trickster (Se, in this case). He's neither "good" nor "bad", and indeed, that's the whole gag.
 

Haphazard

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Any of the other three.

I'm a Star Wars geek, so I'll use that as an example:

Darth Vader: Te Opposing Personality
The Emperor: Ni Senex/Witch

Or, if you've seen Terry Gilliam's Brazil, you've got Michael Palin as an Ni Opposing Personality, Mr. Helpmann as a Te Senex/Witch and Bob Hoskins is an Se Demonic Personality.

Someone like Bender in Futurama is, IMHO, a classic Trickster (Se, in this case). He's neither "good" nor "bad", and indeed, that's the whole gag.

So we are going on the assumption that it matters what the character of the hero is matters more than the setup of the culture in which the hero is geared toward?

Does the trickster archetype necessarily match up to the trickster archetype of the 8-function model?
 
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