• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Doesn't The MBTI and JCF Apply To The Real World?

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This is kind of like a poll question without a poll. I would like to know how many people on this forum just like to talk about psychology without practicing it.

I've always been a practical S/N combo who likes to practice what he preaches. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours discussing theory, but believe me it's not all from the armchair or computer chair. So I am rather shocked when I point out to someone a clear example of inferior projection in the real world, only to be made to feel like none of this applies to the real world and that I, suspiciously, have an ulterior motive. As if all I am capable of is ulterior motives and psychobabbling into a computer.

I can view this suspicious nature as a matter of type. But instead of playing that game, I just want to know:

What's this shit for if not to put to good use in the world?
 

chickpea

perfect person
Joined
Sep 12, 2009
Messages
5,729
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
yes, it can apply to the real world. no, it doesn't apply to every single human emotion or behavior. being jealous in a relationship doesn't have anything to do with inferior projection or any of the functions, any type is capable of it.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
yes, it can apply to the real world. no, it doesn't apply to every single human emotion or behavior. being jealous in a relationship doesn't have anything to do with inferior projection or any of the functions, any type is capable of it.

By itself, jealousy is not an indicator of type. It Just So Happens that my own dad was a very, very jealous TYPE, and he was an ISFJ. Or ISXJ, since it kind of depended on the environment he was in. So I'm still talking about a type, and not an isolated instance of being jealous. Just the same, I'm not the alcoholic type, but I would certainly be capable of driving drunk if I wanted to.
 

UniqueMixture

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
estj
Enneagram
378
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I thought think was going to be about typing inanimate objects. That sounds like more fun:

Rocks Intj
Jello Isfp
Spiderweb Ne
Rainbows NF
 

pinkgraffiti

New member
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
1,482
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
748
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
lol i love you. are you sure you're not an enfp?
(ps. why is jello isfp?)

I thought think was going to be about typing inanimate objects. That sounds like more fun:

Rocks Intj
Jello Isfp
Spiderweb Ne
Rainbows NF
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I thought think was going to be about typing inanimate objects. That sounds like more fun:

Rocks Intj
Jello Isfp
Spiderweb Ne
Rainbows NF

So it's a game? I did not know that.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
well, the concept of cognitive functions is extremely helpful in differentiating one's theory of mind. in combination with vision logic, which is the ability to differentiate stages of the developemet of cognitive complexity (the ability to handle diverse perspectives), it's a superpower. (vision logic is itself a product of development of cognitive complexity and in my opinion it's requirement for understanding typology in a way, that is not a mere conceptual hallucination, but synched with the "territory")

but many young "typologists" go over the top in assuming that whole typological concepts are in operation in a person, just because they see one aspect of it occurring, one fragment of a pattern of a function that correlates with the concept, and so on.... they never really test their theories as a whole, they don't test the big picture of it - just because the theories works in one case doesn't mean it's generally accurate.... bottom-line: don't apply your "typology", if your mind suffers from conceptual arrogance - which has been a stage in the development of typological understanding of everyone i have witnessed, including myself (and we never know when the arrogance is gone, we can just tell it's decreasing) - the pattern is usually: the better the typologist, the less frequent his use of typological lingo, while discussing someone's interiors. there are often more flexible and abstract ways of pointing something out.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
well, the concept of cognitive functions is extremely helpful in differentiating one's theory of mind. in combination with vision logic, which is the ability to differentiate stages of the developemet of cognitive complexity (the ability to handle diverse perspectives), it's a superpower. (vision logic is itself a product of development of cognitive complexity and in my opinion it's requirement for understanding typology in a way, that is not a mere conceptual hallucination, but synched with the "territory")

but many young "typologists" go over the top in assuming that whole typological concepts are in operation in a person, just because they see one aspect of it occurring, one fragment of a pattern of a function that correlates with the concept, and so on.... they never really test their theories as a whole, they don't test the big picture of it - just because the theories works in one case doesn't mean it's generally accurate.... bottom-line: don't apply your "typology", if your mind suffers from conceptual arrogance - which has been a stage in the development of typological understanding of everyone i have witnessed, including myself (and we never know when the arrogance is gone, we can just tell it's decreasing) - the pattern is usually: the better the typologist, the less frequent his use of typological lingo, while discussing someone's interiors. there are often more flexible and abstract ways of pointing something out.

It's true, I don't need typology to talk about projection and jealousy. But the question remains: does JCF always apply? They are cognitive functions, and apparently cognition can't function without them; therefore they apply to each and every cognition (namely, a thought-process concerned with determining the relationship of two or more identities). So in a person experiencing jealousy, somewhere along the line a conclusion has been drawn which constitutes a cognition.

The point is not that this person is therefore a jealous type or any type, but that this conclusion was created through function interaction. In the situation I'm referring to, the interaction of dominant Si with inferior Ne is a process known as inferior projection in which the jealous person's traits are instead imagined as belonging to a second party in an accusatory way.

I watched my own mom and dad go through this for years. I just didn't know what it was at the time.

I don't think it's typological arrogance all the time, but a rigid reliance or dependence on typological formulas which have become reductive and eventually arrogant. My best personal results with psychology have come from other concepts, such as introjection and displacement.
 

UniqueMixture

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
estj
Enneagram
378
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
lol i love you. are you sure you're not an enfp?
(ps. why is jello isfp?)

Jello is isfp because it is quiet, it sits there, it is sweet, it gives in under pressure, um... it melts in your mouth? Pretty sure I'm intj, but thanx!

@mal to unlock the "usefulness" of typology ask an Ne dom. they tend to subconsciously internalize the associations made in typology in order to read people or "orchestrate" a room. Also, do not take it so -literally- there is no little room marked "Ti" inside of a person's head that makes them logical for example. The skills of the various functions are more than likely distributed among multiple areas and are not always "innate"
 
S

Society

Guest
as a way to understand the real world - sure, even if its a fallacy to objectify the functions, the conceptual terminology is still useful to understand personal and social dynamics.
but i am not so sure it would be viable to communicate about in real life - i don't know anyone who knows about it in israel - and even in canada it was pretty rare, really only my exwife and maybe my aunt-in-law. also it would be difficult to communicate without explaining about the theory, because the terminology doesn't fit the common use of the same words. i would say it might be best to keep it at a basic verbal level, a.k.a. don't say "you have a strong Ne", say "so you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions"...
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
as a way to understand the real world - sure, even if its a fallacy to objectify the functions, the conceptual terminology is still useful to understand personal and social dynamics.
but i am not so sure it would be viable to communicate about in real life - i don't know anyone who knows about it in israel - and even in canada it was pretty rare, really only my exwife and maybe my aunt-in-law. also it would be difficult to communicate without explaining about the theory, because the terminology doesn't fit the common use of the same words. i would say it might be best to keep it at a basic verbal level, a.k.a. don't say "you have a strong Ne", say "so you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions"...

As long as you make it sound like a compliment and not a criticism. So it would be more like "you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions... I like that!"
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
It's useful for self awareness and teaching the age old lesson of acceptance of difference, in this case different ways of perceiving and evaluating.

Once you start seeing it in a black and white sense and you try to place people into catagories that go alongside their type, then you have a big problem.

Individuals come first, these functions are just guidelines not rules. One ENFP might not be the same as a different ENFP, they have lived different lives in different environments and different experiences. They might share similarities in their way of seeing things, but who they are as people could be vastly different.
 
G

garbage

Guest
It's useful for self awareness and teaching the age old lesson of acceptance of difference, in this case different ways of perceiving and evaluating.

Once you start seeing it in a black and white sense and you try to place people into catagories that go alongside their type, then you have a big problem.

Individuals come first, these functions are just guidelines not rules. One ENFP might not be the same as a different ENFP, they have lived different lives in different environments and different experiences. They might share similarities in their way of seeing things, but who they are as people could be vastly different.

Well, I'm in total agreement with this. Best summation ever. :cheers:

Things with a practical application are great. The question is what the best practical applications of MBTI/JCF actually are.

The absolute best application is understanding that people are different and that we can accept those differences. The second best is personal growth. Second-point-fifth is helping us frame and develop a rough vocabulary for internal use.

The worst is diagnosing others individually without a solid, checked, and validated foundation, purely based upon our own rationalizations. That's just Ti/Si nitpicking at its absolute worst. Or Ni tunnelvision. Or a Fe "us versus them" mentality. Or maybe inferior Te that misuses categorization schemes. I can't remember anymore.
 

UniqueMixture

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
estj
Enneagram
378
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
As long as you make it sound like a compliment and not a criticism. So it would be more like "you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions... I like that!"

Yes, but only if THEY say that specifically AND if you DO NOT try to explain type theory to them. People -do not- like to be put in a box, nor do they like to feel as though you will always react to them in the same way. If you are trying to figure out an equation for how to interact with people it will FEEL awkward and probably fail. It is better to use typology as an "association cloud" for helping you to feel out that individual or group of people.
 

lunalum

Super Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
2,706
MBTI Type
ZNTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
The point is not that this person is therefore a jealous type or any type, but that this conclusion was created through function interaction. In the situation I'm referring to, the interaction of dominant Si with inferior Ne is a process known as inferior projection in which the jealous person's traits are instead imagined as belonging to a second party in an accusatory way.

There's no problem in applying this stuff to the world, as long as there really is a connection established between the concept and the reality. What is the connection between projection of general jealousy and the specific dynamic of Si+inferior Ne?

As long as you make it sound like a compliment and not a criticism. So it would be more like "you like exploring a lot of possibilities and making connections in different directions... I like that!"

Without the "I like that!" it sounds like a criticism to you?

That's just Ti/Si nitpicking at its absolute worst. Or Ni tunnelvision. Or a Fe "us versus them" mentality. Or maybe inferior Te that misuses categorization schemes. I can't remember anymore.

This pretty much describes the whole problem :laugh:
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yes, but only if THEY say that specifically AND if you DO NOT try to explain type theory to them. People -do not- like to be put in a box, nor do they like to feel as though you will always react to them in the same way. If you are trying to figure out an equation for how to interact with people it will FEEL awkward and probably fail. It is better to use typology as an "association cloud" for helping you to feel out that individual or group of people.

Unfortunately for them, people are being put in abstract boxes all the time by those who are naive to typology. Consider those times at work where I was labeled the one who "forgets," as in something I was supposed to do, especially after my usual work routine was changed for the 12th time. Typology works with this labeling habit in a more innocuous way. But I've read that some people lost their jobs after taking the MBTI at work because their type profile didn't match their work.

"nor do they like to feel as though you will always react to them in the same way." I don't know what that means, but I usual react the same way and this doesn't bother anybody.

"If you are trying to figure out an equation for how to interact with people it will FEEL awkward and probably fail." It feels artificial and I'm not into any kind of inauthentic behavior. What bothers me more is those who treat everybody exactly the same way, as if they all fit in the same category.

'It is better to use typology as an "association cloud" for helping you to feel out that individual or group of people.' I don't know what that is.
 

UniqueMixture

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
estj
Enneagram
378
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
@mal: If you generate stereotypical thoughts like "infjs like giraffes" or whatever people will feel as though you are putting them in a box and not responding to them individually. That will provoke the same feelings in them that are provoked in you when people treat you as being a part of a class of individuals. In other words one stereotype of NFs is that they like art. It is ok to ask someone you suspect is NF if they like art to try and build a bond with them. It is BETTER to ask "what do you like?" It is not ok to say "Oh, you must like art since you are infj " : D

"I don't know what that means, but I usual react the same way and this doesn't bother anybody."

"It feels artificial and I'm not into any kind of inauthentic behavior. What bothers me more is those who treat everybody exactly the same way, as if they all fit in the same category."

^You don't see those statements as "contradictory"? I don't mean as much in the logical sense as I do in the emotional sense.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There's no problem in applying this stuff to the world, as long as there really is a connection established between the concept and the reality. What is the connection between projection of general jealousy and the specific dynamic of Si+inferior Ne?

Jealousy is provoked by the imagining of traits in another that really exist in oneself. Inferior Ne creates a mountain out of a molehill. For a real example, a friend of mine went to the store and returned 45 minutes later, only to be accused of being away too long. Therefore, she must be messing around, right? So she ends up accounting for every minute she was gone: how long it takes to drive there, how long it takes to find a parking space, etc. Her boyfriend is the jealous type because he jealously forces her to explain herself all the time. Her boyfriend is also the one in the relationship who actually has been caught messing around.

Now with regard to the time issue, read this from

http://typelogic.com/istj.html
"Si is oriented toward the world of forms, essences, generics. Time is such a form, a quantifiable essense of exactitude, the standard to which external events are held. For both of the IS_J types, the sense of propriety comes from the clear definition of these internal forms. An apple "should" have certain qualities, against which all apples are evaluated. A "proper" chair has four legs, (and other qualities this poor INTP can only guess). Jung viewed introverted sensing as something of an oxymoron, in that the natural direction of senses is outward toward the object, rather than inward and away from it. One has the sense that Introverted Sensors are drawn more to the measure of the concept of the perceived object than to the experience of that perception."

It's not just time that the Si is concerned with, of course. But if something or other doesn't "feel" right to the Si (feeling is NOT an emotion in this case, for example the feeling that something is "off"), inferior Ne steps in to provide the reasons why, in a negative way that invokes jealousy when a love relationship is the center of its attention. In doing so, it confuses the object with the subject of its attention by projecting traits held unconsciously by the self onto the significant other.

Without the "I like that!" it sounds like a criticism to you?

No, but I've been around the block a few times in life and I've learned that people don't like things about them pointed out because it always seems like an implicit criticism. As an INTP I'm one of those types who will make a simple observation and get in trouble for it, even though causing pain wasn't my intention.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
@mal: If you generate stereotypical thoughts like "infjs like giraffes"

I don't, so where are you going with this?

or whatever people will feel as though you are putting them in a box and not responding to them individually. That will provoke the same feelings in them that are provoked in you when people treat you as being a part of a class of individuals. In other words one stereotype of NFs is that they like art. It is ok to ask someone you suspect is NF if they like art to try and build a bond with them. It is BETTER to ask "what do you like?" It is not ok to say "Oh, you must like art since you are infj " : D

On this very forum in "The SP Arthouse" itself I've actually tried to knock down the stereotype that the SP is an artist type. It didn't go over very well because other people cling to stereotypes, and so you should be addressing them and not me.

"I don't know what that means, but I usual react the same way and this doesn't bother anybody."

"It feels artificial and I'm not into any kind of inauthentic behavior. What bothers me more is those who treat everybody exactly the same way, as if they all fit in the same category."

^You don't see those statements as "contradictory"? I don't mean as much in the logical sense as I do in the emotional sense.

I don't know what you mean by "react the same way." It's quite common for me to greet the same person differently each time, but we talk about the same things. I don't know where you're going with this.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
Ah wait there reading comprehension fail...im too tired.
 
Top