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  1. #51
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Oct 2008
    6w7 sx/sp


    Fi user: yes this person act based on subjective, whimsical feelings, but I have my own, so how am I allowed to judge?

    Fe user: that person just act based on his personal feelings and whim, that's unfair, do others people allow themselves to do that?
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  2. #52
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Whoa, Elfboy, you make interacting with Fi users sound like a dream. Way to give Fe incentive to bother!
    weeellll. I noted everybody gave elfboy a bit of a hard time-but I agree with almost all of his points on an innate level. In other words, my instinctual reponses are extremely similar to his. This is why is is SO VERY IMPORTANT to understand the other side of the equation-by understanding the goals and motives of Fe styled communication, understanding the worldview of those very diffreent from me, I can not simply project my own worldview upon another, but instead recognize thier intents and needs and try and be receptive to them and meet thier needs in turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    I'm an Fi dom here, and I like praise. I like giving and receiving praise, and sometimes they're a good conversation starter. I consider the possibility of me being too naive, but I don't remember receiving a praise I didn't feel like sincere... But if I ever got the impression that the praise was untrue, I probably just didn't care - praise is still nice and I'm just enjoying whatever I'm doing/wearing/etc at the moment.
    I don't know if it's Fi associated (it seems it isn't), but I really like praise. On the other side, no one has ever gained anything from me using praise or flattery... (maybe that's the Fi? who knows...)
    hah, but the funny thing-I recently was in my yearly review (where my ESTJ boss described me as "focused, data driven, analytical, obsessive about details and meticulous" hahahaha). She gave me a lot of great critical feedback but I just flowered with the praise she gave me. At heart I am a complete people pleaser on some level and I like praise-but it has to be earned praise for things I deserved. If you give me praise I didnt deserve, then I may actually correct you and start describing all the parts of it I could have done better or may just conclude you are not a valuable source of feedback.

    INFJs-I have a question about a recent issue at work that myself and another ENFP are facing with an INFJ:

    The company tends to foster a "hunger for responsibility" attitude and encourages us to own our projects and make our own decsions proactively. For both myself and the other enfp, we will start to make these decsions-then the INFJ seems to retract back and say "well, we really need to talk more with Boss about that". She actually physically withdraws about, hides data and then will talk with the boss one on one and then tell us what the boss decided.

    It feels really strange...the other enfp came to talk to me about this issue and several others she was having with the INFJ, and I explained a great deal of the things we talk about here....she said "That is exactly what I am seeing." For the enfp, what helps immensely, is to understand the other person thinks in a very different way, and that there is mutual misreading across that boundry. However I didnt quite understand what was going on in this case-an INFJ perpsective on what she is seeing would be really valuable.

  3. #53
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Jan 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Fi user: yes this person act based on subjective, whimsical feelings, but I have an innate right to my own, so how am I allowed it would be extremely obnoxious and disrespectful to judge unless they are doing something very bad?

    Fe user: that person just act based on his personal feelings and whim, that's unfair, do others people allow themselves to do that?

  4. #54
    eh cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    4 sp


    ^I really have no idea what is meant by 'hiding data', so don't know if I can even comment on that. Other than that she may not be deliberately hiding anything, or may not think she's doing that.

    Sometimes I won't provide my thoughts on something because I haven't concluded anything yet. Maybe that's what you see?

    Or, maybe she's in the end wanting to do things utterly independently too, so doesn't want to share what she might know because she wants to run with it on her own and deliver the final results herself? (i.e. she's doing something independently too?) Maybe she doesn't agree at all with your plan and thinks it's bad and wants to do it differently and is in the process of figuring out how she'd rather do it? It's impossible to say.

    Don't know about the boss thing either. However, I will periodically point out things to my boss, so he's aware of what I'm planning on doing, or relationship-management wise, so that he trusts me and knows that I'm doing x, y, and z, and therefore in the future I have some leniancy and he doesn't get on my back about things because he trusts me since I've kept him in the loop periodically about what I'm doing or thinking or issues I might see with company direction. So I'll periodically pepper him with info and keep him up to date. Selfishly this also ties into long-range reviews and such, so that he knows what I'm doing and I feel I'm in a better position to get better reviews and get better placed for projects, responsibility, etc. I don't really do the 'oh, well, we better talk to the boss..' thing, unless we're all unsure of what we want to do and the boss has expertise that might assist in honing in direction or deciding on direction.

    Or if I know the boss would be pissed off by something, or I'd lose his trust and therefore impact the nature of my future relationship with him (and therefore what responsibilities I am given and allowed to run with), I might run the thing by him so that at the very least HE has the data too as to what I am thinking. Any communication has less to do with approval, as I don't really have a problem disagreeing or challenging or questioning status quo/company direction/decisions... more to do with making him informed so that he's not filling in the blanks/guessing on things. And in the end, since he's higher-up, he has the 'power' to tell me not to pursue such and such direction. I have to work within the bounds of what's going to be tolerated vs what would in the end fail to be delivered if higher-ups nixed it because they have the 'power' to do so. Basically I'd like to know early on, before implementing a decision/plan of action, whether or not it even has a chance of going through. If in the end the higher-ups are going to nix it, I'd like to know that right from the start, so as not to totally waste my time working on something that in the end will be caboshed.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #55
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    1w2 so/sx


    Yeah, I'm not sure I completely identify with the behaviour of the INFJ as you're describing it, Orobas. However, I do know that I want to be sure that what I am doing is worth investing in the effort into by knowing exactly what those in charge are after. I also know that it doesn't work for me to be on a team with everyone having equal power. I would prefer to be assigned one part of the job that I can own. Alternatively, I would prefer for either myself or someone I trust to be responsible for the outcome of the project, while the others help make it happen. I don't want to be forced to equally own something that I will be embarrassed of, disagree with, or encounter huge amounts of friction with others if my voice is going to be heard.

    I don't think I'd ever be likely to hide data to make this happen, but I do think it's possible that the INFJ feels kind of like there are two like thinkers and then the INFJ who is very unlike in her approach. This can create incredible amounts of white noise in deciding whether she is being reasonable, how much to let go of, what is actually her responsibility, how she can be heard without being seen as taking over etc. That white noise makes the whole problem become blurry and out of focus, particularly if there is no way to stop it or to process it. If that feeling becomes too extreme, I could see how it would be possible for her to become a lone cowboy, not consulting you as much as would seem fair, particularly if she doesn't want to be held responsible for the outcome of something that she doesn't necessary support, but doesn't want to create big waves.

    Probably the INFJ doesn't understand the the ENFP Ne, throwing it out there approach (which can either sound ridiculously impractical and untrustworthy, or else confusing when it keeps changing) is just brainstorming, rather than setting something in stone. Most INFJs don't really sound too sure of something unless they have put loads of thought into it and are presenting their "end product". Therefore, they are very invested in that. If you either treat her ideas as also Ne idea generating, or else don't understand that she may be reluctant to shoot your ideas down because she assumes that you are invested in them too, then she will become less invested in working together as a group. Either she'll assume you both are kind of off the wall, are too Te forceful without considering the underlying considerations, or that you are not keeping in mind what the boss ultimately wants, and yet she has to somehow work with it and also "sign her name to it".

    I remember having a passionate dislike as a kid for making up stories together as a class. I also really disliked group projects, even though I did like collaborative work in specific, controlled circumstances where me and the person working with me were on the same page and could divide up the work so we could do our parts separately, but benefit from some discussion. As an adult, I have avoided committees and group meetings like the plague and will only participate if there is leadership whose judgement I trust and who will oversee in such a way that something productive is accomplished. Because ENFPs are more flexy, yet have Te to help push the job through, I think they are better suited for the kind of work situation you describe without feeling a lot of distress or emotional noise in the process.

  6. #56
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Mar 2011


    How old is Elfboy?

  7. #57
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    6w7 so/sx
    EII Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    When it’s OK to complain about someone else to a third party.
    When you have a closer bond with the third party than the person and you trust the third party to contribute positively, or if you are speaking anonymously (and trust the audience to contribute positively).

    When venting crosses the line and become a malicious attack.
    When your intentions depart from improving the situation, and/or when you break confidentiality in terms of your bond with the person.

    Does Fe over-simplify, while Fi over-complicate? If so, then how can the communication gap be bridged?
    I have never conceptualized it in that way, actually. Sometimes it seems to me that Fe tact is much more complex than Te output of Fi. I believe that Fe can be a little odd about behavior, though. I usually see behavior as a symptom of a root cause, and my goal is addressing the root cause. I do not pay so much attention to changing behavior in and of itself -- so it is surprising to me when a Fe user will talk about behavior change.... that seems like an aftereffect to me. But since behavior leads to real-world consequences, whereas root causes without action do not have much of a tangible impact, I do understand the goal of behavior change.

    Is it possible to separate what someone does (their behavior) from who they are (their character)? If no, why not? If yes, then how would criticizing someone’s character be different than criticizing their behavior?
    I have always had trouble with this one, with my ENFJ friend. She tends to criticize behavior and I have seen that as essentially the same as criticizing the person, since behavior is an extension of the self. I believe I have become more open to this, though, recently. The lines between my Ne/Ni and Fi/Fe are blurring.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    So to put what I'm thinking more succinctly, both Fe-users and Fi-users can work hard to understand the other point of view and want to improve their relationships, but Fe understands in order to get better results while Fi understands for its own sake, going beyond the point of what could help them get results.
    Yes and no... I think this may have more to do with Pe/Ji and Pi/Je. Fe users will generally have an immediate external goal as sighted by Pi. Fi users will generally want to add the understanding to their framework so that they may respond better when they are confronted with such issues later. The goal is also to improve the relationship, but the knowledge isn't enacted so much as stored.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is one difference. I'm not sure Fi is used to predict how others will act so much.
    At least personally, this is true. I have a good idea of how others' emotional states will change, but little conception of behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm only bringing this up because I'm curious how Fi users would perceive it, and if it isn't seen as harsh, what would be in their world?
    To be honest, Elfboy's list seems more aggressive than necessary but the content isn't really threatening. I feel basically the same... be genuine; be clear about your intentions; be direct; be objective; be swift; be relevant; be honest. It doesn't seem very nice, I suppose, but it seems fair to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Again, though - I am very far gone with a person by the time I get there, and I have already made a multitude of excuses for them, and it has proved to be a mistake, from my perspective. Until then I'll be doing the "well, she's had a difficult life, and you have to take into account this and that, and I know she can be obnoxious but if you understood her family, you'd understand..." ad nauseam.

    I almost feel like I go from one extreme to the other in this regard.
    Myself as well. Seems common with IxFx and Fi.

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