Fe & Fi: Rules for Giving and Receiving Criticism

[garbage]

What applies to me may not apply to other Fi users...
I often have very strong desires to share or talk about what I am feeling, but I can find myself confliced about it whether its a good idea to bring it up or not (does it have the potential to cause discomfort to the other person? Will bringing this up ruin the mood?
...
Maybe Fi and Fe are not so different, or maybe I have a stronger affinity to Fe than I realized but never had many opportunites to actualy develop the attribute?

I'm an Fi dom here, and I like praise.
...
I don't know if it's Fi associated (it seems it isn't), but I really like praise. On the other side, no one has ever gained anything from me using praise or flattery... (maybe that's the Fi? who knows...)

Bingo. Either a few of us here have no idea who we are, or this isn't as related to 'use' of any given ego function as we would like to think. I bank on the latter.

 

[Totenkindly]

I have seen none of what you've seen. Te is usually blunt, but Fe usually tries to promote social harmony. Fi doesn't apply to other people, it's an introverted function.

I'm an Fe user (albeit inferior position) and would never criticize a person non-constructively. I'd be more likely to say what you had the Fi user say.

Yes, I've been skimming through the thread and seeing how I measure up.

I have a really good understanding of Fe process, despite it being in inferior position; however, what the OP credits to Fi is more how I approach things. I don't typically like to be non-constructive in my criticisms, although I can be guilty of passive-aggressive comments on occasion if I feel that I have no other outlet for my frustration.

To whit, I have this realistic sense of how someone is behaving and the impact of their behavior on others (the more external Fe thing -- it doesn't matter what the intention is in a sense, because it's STILL creating the problem and the problem has to be fixed somehow, and I can be a blunt hardass depending on the situation and the person's attitude in getting the problem corrected); but I still try to understand the person and where they are coming from, and I want to honor that if I can, and sometimes the two sets of priorities bump heads.

However, I always view that latter bit as a Ti approach for me personally -- it's kind of detached, I build "models" of people in my head that I judge the accuracy of by how predictive the model is, and it tends to be very complicated and is dealing with a person's character rather than necessarily just what they do and captures all the shades of gray. I mean, behavior that is practiced and repeated over time is indicative of character; but I also understand the difference between intention/malice and view people differently based on intent even if they do the same things. It used to be a more laborious process before I accumulated a lot of experience with various types of people, and now I trust my intuition more to "see' where someone is, and my thinking fills in the gap after the fact just to (in)validate the read.

It's interesting to examine functions in different positions/levels of priority within the psyche, since I'm not close to Fe primary but it still gets integrated to some degree into my overall thinking process.

 

[Southern Kross]

Questions-how long does "thinking" take? What are signs another has thought enough? Is there really this big of a gap in "thinking" turn around time between a Ti and Te problem solving approach? What other things need to be considered that are not?


I keep seeing INFJs in forum threads mention how much the quick problem solving can feel rushed and constrictive, so I would like to understand it more fully, as that isnt the intent.

Questions: Does it sometimes happen that does an inability to speak about emotions in an Fi user, morphs into a clinical description of "immaturity" or " emotional coldness" when in reality, it is just a need for more time to process and reflect?

Interesting questions and scenarios. I can't say it's something I've consciously observed before.

In the first situation I would be much the same as you. It doesn't take me long at all to think through something like that and formulate a plan/approach. I couldn't say whether TiFe is different to this though. I can think of many instances where I'm with my parents (ISTP dad and ISFJ mum) and a small spanner is thrown in the works, and the answer or possible solutions to it are blindly obvious to me but not to them. My mum gets agitated as she doesn't see how to overcome it or manage it; my Dad isn't troubled by the minor setback but can't immediately come up with a solution. However, I always put this down this difference to Ne and my ability to generate ideas/solutions with little effort and a Perceiver's ease with adapting, rather than Te vs. Ti.

I also very much understand what you're getting at in the second scenario. Emotions are so complex and my sense of them is so difficult to define. My understanding of them is raw and intuitive; it's like an obscure native language that has to be translated into English but there is little equivalency in the grammar, sentence structure, imagery, or diction between the 2 languages. I have to think it through and plan it out before I can give a translation that is both coherent and genuinely reflects the original content. Even then, the best I can do is give a vague approximation to the original. To me, any fluency in describing emotion is impossible without diluting and simplifying the content to extraordinary lengths; and doing so is pointless because it ends up being overly reductive and too far from the truth. This makes me more inclined to saying nothing, rather than deal in a lesser truth. I'd hate to think that people would see that as emotional immaturity.

 

[Elfboy]

These statements are more than fair. Your patience and eagerness to understand are truly magnificent but I don't think he deserve your efforts in this instance.

[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] if your goal was to totally make Fi-users look like jerks, you have succeeded. I thoroughly appreciate your efforts to add fuel to fire with the negative stereotypes about us, thanks ever so much.

Your snarky tone was totally uncalled for and your comments totally unrelated to the useful discussion at hand. Your blanket statements about FJs speak only for your ignorance and immaturity; not to mention your general reasoning is very poor and incredibly simplistic (FJs=fake=bad).

Please try to be more constructive and show some consideration in your posts.

I'm unsure of your point, but if was that I need to be more sensitive, you're wasting your time.
I simply stated my rules for praise criticism, and that is that I usually like neither and when I do it's only in specific instances. my opinion of FJs was called into question later, so I answered,
though yes, in case there is any doubt in your mind, I am an Fe hater and the Fe users that I do like (TPs included) are generally exceptions to the the rule (I dislike anyone who does not respect my boundaries without exception, and most of the Fe users I've met fall under this category, so the likelihood of me ending up not liking an Fe user is pretty high). I'm sorry to here if your
I hope I've cleared that up
Edit: I should clarify that I'm willing to give anyone a chance, but there are things I have a 0 tolerance policy for, and FJs more often than not tend to clash with this

 

[PeaceBaby]

though yes, in case there is any doubt in your mind, I am an Fe hater and the Fe users that I do like (TPs included) are generally exceptions to the the rule

A little advice - you're still quite young, Elfboy - it would be wise to leave your opinions still open to formation as opposed to approaching things from a more close-minded perspective.

 

[Elfboy]

A little advice - you're still quite young, Elfboy - it would be wise to leave your opinions still open to formation as opposed to approaching things from a more close-minded perspective.

I don't think you got my point. I know a few Fe users who are wonderful but
- I dislike the Fe function itself, not everyone who uses it (but I end up disliking most of them)
- I don't judge people before I get to know them, but the Fe users I've gotten to know usually cross lines that I don't compromise on, so I end up not liking them. it's sort of "Innocent until proven guilty" is something I try to stick to, even when I believe they will probably be guilty.
- given the ratio of Fe users I end up disliking vs liking, I say that overall I don't like Fe users and that if I meet an Fe user there is more than a 50% chance that I'm not going to like them. as I said though, I don't (at least try not to) judge people before I meet them, and enjoy being pleasantly surprised by those I actually do like.
that being said, personal boundaries are not something I compromise on, for any type. if you are under the impression that I am not open to relationships in which my boundaries are allowed to be crossed, you are correct.

it appears I've hijacked this thread. feel free to respond with a visitor message.

 

[Fidelia]

The reason I brought it up, Elfboy, was not as a real effort to somehow call you on your statement (I've concluded that there's little to be gained from doing that kind of stuff online), but because I truly am curious about how the whole thing works and I wondered if you could shed some light on it. I wonder how much age/experiences/maturity factor in, and how much is just different deliveries of similar sentiments that are caused by our respective function usage.

 

[Elfboy]

The reason I brought it up, Elfboy, was not as a real effort to somehow call you on your statement (I've concluded that there's little to be gained from doing that kind of stuff online), but because I truly am curious about how the whole thing works and I wondered if you could shed some light on it. I wonder how much age/experiences/maturity factor in, and how much is just different deliveries of similar sentiments that are caused by our respective function usage.

I know

 

[SilkRoad]

My thoughts from browsing through this thread - apologies for not answering more directly to some of the points but I just don't have the energy or brainpower currently!

-I can be blunt and even harsh, but it tends to be with people with whom diplomacy simply doesn't work. Ie. having to watch them make the same mistakes over and over again without them learning from it (especially if those mistakes affect me or others); repeated boundary violations; etc. I once sent an email to someone saying "I will not tolerate any more boundary violations. Things I consider boundary violations include:" and then listed them in point form. However, if I get anywhere near this point, I have exhausted diplomacy.

-I am generally known as the tactful diplomat type, so when I turn to blunt/harsh I have gone a long way past that. My more common modus operandi would be "sorry to point this out, but..." or "I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but..." or "this isn't intended to be critical or hurtful, but...". And I tend to only offer criticism when I feel I must. Advice, well, I am somewhat prone to giving lectures but usually kindly/diplomatic ones..!

-When I get to the stage where I say things like "he's a waste of space" or "she has no regard for the feelings of others and is entirely self-centered" or anything along those lines - I have already exhausted the possibilities of considering the explanations for why the person behaves that way. Probably there is a part of me that still knows that they've had their own bad experiences which have tended to shape them. In general though, I have a lot less tolerance these days for excuses. And people will make excuses for themselves all the livelong day. When someone has hurt me enough, I am unable to care about that sort of thing any more. Unfortunately I can become very cold and hard about it at that stage. ie. "I don't give a damn what happened to him in his childhood. I know he has issues and I know he's messed up but I DON'T CARE. He should go to a therapist and sort himself out instead of inflicting his crap on others and causing damage in others' lives by his selfishness and carelessness."

Again, though - I am very far gone with a person by the time I get there, and I have already made a multitude of excuses for them, and it has proved to be a mistake, from my perspective. Until then I'll be doing the "well, she's had a difficult life, and you have to take into account this and that, and I know she can be obnoxious but if you understood her family, you'd understand..." ad nauseam.

I almost feel like I go from one extreme to the other in this regard.

 

[cascadeco]

There are probably a million caveats I could put in this thread / on this topic, but I'll keep it to just a few thoughts.

Generally, I tend to be extremely reluctant to give advice. irl I predominantly listen, and I am not one to start giving a monologue or unasked-for opinion on anything... I just state a few [probably bland] generalities and tend not to give explicit thoughts on what a person should or should not do. That's just about the last thing I would do. Even if people ask for advice (which really doesn't happen that often), I tend to be hesitant, because I am usually of the opinion that at the end of the day, people don't really want advice and will end up doing their own thing / change their situation when THEY are ready. My giving them an alternative / my perspective is only as good as whether they're in a mental space to actually be willing to hear that or be receptive to that; and often-times I just rarely sense that people are in that space where they're actually open to what I might have to say. So, I simply listen, or if people are in that in-between zone, I might insert my bland generality / thought, to maybe try to get them along the road of thinking in a different perspective, but that's about it. Most of the time it seems people just want to vent their own self/thoughts out, and just want someone to actually *listen* to them, so I do that. And, often-times, I think I don't have much wisdom to offer, as I am always concerned about projecting my own self onto them. So, this too results in my doing tons of listening about a particular situation, until I feel I have enough information to give them a personalized thought - not just a blanket thought, since many blanket things may not apply, given that person and where they're that.

If people ask for critique, I'll give critique. Some people like that, and if I know they like that, I'll present the critiques. Also, depending on the environment (i.e. work vs. personal relationships), I can go into that mode, or not. I also like to give praise and encouragement. If it's not genuine, I'm not about to say anything.

Receiving criticism? I don't know. I think a lot of the time I'm able to just factor in WHO the person is who is critiquing me; if I know they're the sort of person who naturally critiques and it's nothing personal, I don't really take critique badly from them, and treat it objectively. I guess initial thought is that I think I'm able to detach fairly well when it comes to critiques - like, I have a subjective/personal view of myself, and can also step back and view myself objectively, and very well might agree with the critique (because I've very likely critiqued myself already about that very thing).

As to the premise of the OP -•When it’s OK to complain about someone else to a third party.
•When venting crosses the line and become a malicious attack.

I think people of ALL types complain and vent. Gossiping ('malicious' 3rd party discussion?) occurs across the board for all types, although everyone is going to have their own notion of what is and is not 'ok' to gossip about, and what's 'good' or 'bad' to talk to someone else about, but everyone still does it, and all types will complain about one thing or another to trusted people.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Fi user: yes this person act based on subjective, whimsical feelings, but I have my own, so how am I allowed to judge?

Fe user: that person just act based on his personal feelings and whim, that's unfair, do others people allow themselves to do that?

 

[sculpting]

Whoa, Elfboy, you make interacting with Fi users sound like a dream. Way to give Fe incentive to bother!

weeellll. I noted everybody gave elfboy a bit of a hard time-but I agree with almost all of his points on an innate level. In other words, my instinctual reponses are extremely similar to his. This is why is is SO VERY IMPORTANT to understand the other side of the equation-by understanding the goals and motives of Fe styled communication, understanding the worldview of those very diffreent from me, I can not simply project my own worldview upon another, but instead recognize thier intents and needs and try and be receptive to them and meet thier needs in turn.

I'm an Fi dom here, and I like praise. I like giving and receiving praise, and sometimes they're a good conversation starter. I consider the possibility of me being too naive, but I don't remember receiving a praise I didn't feel like sincere... But if I ever got the impression that the praise was untrue, I probably just didn't care - praise is still nice and I'm just enjoying whatever I'm doing/wearing/etc at the moment.
I don't know if it's Fi associated (it seems it isn't), but I really like praise. On the other side, no one has ever gained anything from me using praise or flattery... (maybe that's the Fi? who knows...)

hah, but the funny thing-I recently was in my yearly review (where my ESTJ boss described me as "focused, data driven, analytical, obsessive about details and meticulous" hahahaha). She gave me a lot of great critical feedback but I just flowered with the praise she gave me. At heart I am a complete people pleaser on some level and I like praise-but it has to be earned praise for things I deserved. If you give me praise I didnt deserve, then I may actually correct you and start describing all the parts of it I could have done better or may just conclude you are not a valuable source of feedback.


INFJs-I have a question about a recent issue at work that myself and another ENFP are facing with an INFJ:

The company tends to foster a "hunger for responsibility" attitude and encourages us to own our projects and make our own decsions proactively. For both myself and the other enfp, we will start to make these decsions-then the INFJ seems to retract back and say "well, we really need to talk more with Boss about that". She actually physically withdraws about, hides data and then will talk with the boss one on one and then tell us what the boss decided.

It feels really strange...the other enfp came to talk to me about this issue and several others she was having with the INFJ, and I explained a great deal of the things we talk about here....she said "That is exactly what I am seeing." For the enfp, what helps immensely, is to understand the other person thinks in a very different way, and that there is mutual misreading across that boundry. However I didnt quite understand what was going on in this case-an INFJ perpsective on what she is seeing would be really valuable.

 

[sculpting]

Fi user: yes this person act based on subjective, whimsical feelings, but I have an innate right to my own, so how am I allowed it would be extremely obnoxious and disrespectful to judge unless they are doing something very bad?

Fe user: that person just act based on his personal feelings and whim, that's unfair, do others people allow themselves to do that?

Fixed?

 

[cascadeco]

^I really have no idea what is meant by 'hiding data', so don't know if I can even comment on that. Other than that she may not be deliberately hiding anything, or may not think she's doing that.

Sometimes I won't provide my thoughts on something because I haven't concluded anything yet. Maybe that's what you see?

Or, maybe she's in the end wanting to do things utterly independently too, so doesn't want to share what she might know because she wants to run with it on her own and deliver the final results herself? (i.e. she's doing something independently too?) Maybe she doesn't agree at all with your plan and thinks it's bad and wants to do it differently and is in the process of figuring out how she'd rather do it? It's impossible to say.

Don't know about the boss thing either. However, I will periodically point out things to my boss, so he's aware of what I'm planning on doing, or relationship-management wise, so that he trusts me and knows that I'm doing x, y, and z, and therefore in the future I have some leniancy and he doesn't get on my back about things because he trusts me since I've kept him in the loop periodically about what I'm doing or thinking or issues I might see with company direction. So I'll periodically pepper him with info and keep him up to date. Selfishly this also ties into long-range reviews and such, so that he knows what I'm doing and I feel I'm in a better position to get better reviews and get better placed for projects, responsibility, etc. I don't really do the 'oh, well, we better talk to the boss..' thing, unless we're all unsure of what we want to do and the boss has expertise that might assist in honing in direction or deciding on direction.

Or if I know the boss would be pissed off by something, or I'd lose his trust and therefore impact the nature of my future relationship with him (and therefore what responsibilities I am given and allowed to run with), I might run the thing by him so that at the very least HE has the data too as to what I am thinking. Any communication has less to do with approval, as I don't really have a problem disagreeing or challenging or questioning status quo/company direction/decisions... more to do with making him informed so that he's not filling in the blanks/guessing on things. And in the end, since he's higher-up, he has the 'power' to tell me not to pursue such and such direction. I have to work within the bounds of what's going to be tolerated vs what would in the end fail to be delivered if higher-ups nixed it because they have the 'power' to do so. Basically I'd like to know early on, before implementing a decision/plan of action, whether or not it even has a chance of going through. If in the end the higher-ups are going to nix it, I'd like to know that right from the start, so as not to totally waste my time working on something that in the end will be caboshed.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, I'm not sure I completely identify with the behaviour of the INFJ as you're describing it, Orobas. However, I do know that I want to be sure that what I am doing is worth investing in the effort into by knowing exactly what those in charge are after. I also know that it doesn't work for me to be on a team with everyone having equal power. I would prefer to be assigned one part of the job that I can own. Alternatively, I would prefer for either myself or someone I trust to be responsible for the outcome of the project, while the others help make it happen. I don't want to be forced to equally own something that I will be embarrassed of, disagree with, or encounter huge amounts of friction with others if my voice is going to be heard.

I don't think I'd ever be likely to hide data to make this happen, but I do think it's possible that the INFJ feels kind of like there are two like thinkers and then the INFJ who is very unlike in her approach. This can create incredible amounts of white noise in deciding whether she is being reasonable, how much to let go of, what is actually her responsibility, how she can be heard without being seen as taking over etc. That white noise makes the whole problem become blurry and out of focus, particularly if there is no way to stop it or to process it. If that feeling becomes too extreme, I could see how it would be possible for her to become a lone cowboy, not consulting you as much as would seem fair, particularly if she doesn't want to be held responsible for the outcome of something that she doesn't necessary support, but doesn't want to create big waves.

Probably the INFJ doesn't understand the the ENFP Ne, throwing it out there approach (which can either sound ridiculously impractical and untrustworthy, or else confusing when it keeps changing) is just brainstorming, rather than setting something in stone. Most INFJs don't really sound too sure of something unless they have put loads of thought into it and are presenting their "end product". Therefore, they are very invested in that. If you either treat her ideas as also Ne idea generating, or else don't understand that she may be reluctant to shoot your ideas down because she assumes that you are invested in them too, then she will become less invested in working together as a group. Either she'll assume you both are kind of off the wall, are too Te forceful without considering the underlying considerations, or that you are not keeping in mind what the boss ultimately wants, and yet she has to somehow work with it and also "sign her name to it".

I remember having a passionate dislike as a kid for making up stories together as a class. I also really disliked group projects, even though I did like collaborative work in specific, controlled circumstances where me and the person working with me were on the same page and could divide up the work so we could do our parts separately, but benefit from some discussion. As an adult, I have avoided committees and group meetings like the plague and will only participate if there is leadership whose judgement I trust and who will oversee in such a way that something productive is accomplished. Because ENFPs are more flexy, yet have Te to help push the job through, I think they are better suited for the kind of work situation you describe without feeling a lot of distress or emotional noise in the process.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

How old is Elfboy?

 

[skylights]

When it’s OK to complain about someone else to a third party.

When you have a closer bond with the third party than the person and you trust the third party to contribute positively, or if you are speaking anonymously (and trust the audience to contribute positively).

When venting crosses the line and become a malicious attack.

When your intentions depart from improving the situation, and/or when you break confidentiality in terms of your bond with the person.

Does Fe over-simplify, while Fi over-complicate? If so, then how can the communication gap be bridged?

I have never conceptualized it in that way, actually. Sometimes it seems to me that Fe tact is much more complex than Te output of Fi. I believe that Fe can be a little odd about behavior, though. I usually see behavior as a symptom of a root cause, and my goal is addressing the root cause. I do not pay so much attention to changing behavior in and of itself -- so it is surprising to me when a Fe user will talk about behavior change.... that seems like an aftereffect to me. But since behavior leads to real-world consequences, whereas root causes without action do not have much of a tangible impact, I do understand the goal of behavior change.

Is it possible to separate what someone does (their behavior) from who they are (their character)? If no, why not? If yes, then how would criticizing someone’s character be different than criticizing their behavior?

I have always had trouble with this one, with my ENFJ friend. She tends to criticize behavior and I have seen that as essentially the same as criticizing the person, since behavior is an extension of the self. I believe I have become more open to this, though, recently. The lines between my Ne/Ni and Fi/Fe are blurring.

So to put what I'm thinking more succinctly, both Fe-users and Fi-users can work hard to understand the other point of view and want to improve their relationships, but Fe understands in order to get better results while Fi understands for its own sake, going beyond the point of what could help them get results.

Yes and no... I think this may have more to do with Pe/Ji and Pi/Je. Fe users will generally have an immediate external goal as sighted by Pi. Fi users will generally want to add the understanding to their framework so that they may respond better when they are confronted with such issues later. The goal is also to improve the relationship, but the knowledge isn't enacted so much as stored.

This is one difference. I'm not sure Fi is used to predict how others will act so much.

At least personally, this is true. I have a good idea of how others' emotional states will change, but little conception of behavior.

I'm only bringing this up because I'm curious how Fi users would perceive it, and if it isn't seen as harsh, what would be in their world?

To be honest, Elfboy's list seems more aggressive than necessary but the content isn't really threatening. I feel basically the same... be genuine; be clear about your intentions; be direct; be objective; be swift; be relevant; be honest. It doesn't seem very nice, I suppose, but it seems fair to me.

Again, though - I am very far gone with a person by the time I get there, and I have already made a multitude of excuses for them, and it has proved to be a mistake, from my perspective. Until then I'll be doing the "well, she's had a difficult life, and you have to take into account this and that, and I know she can be obnoxious but if you understood her family, you'd understand..." ad nauseam.

I almost feel like I go from one extreme to the other in this regard.

Myself as well. Seems common with IxFx and Fi.