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Dominant-Tertiary Loops

Mal12345

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This article seems to have the most basic spin on the subject that I've seen around. I offer this link for those who are into JCF:

http://www.douban.com/group/topic/23092774/
"So if you pick up mainly Ne and Te in someone, don't presume that he's an NT type--in fact, he's probably not. Depending on which is dominant, he is most likely either ENFP (Ne+Te with poor Fi) or ESTJ (Te+Ne with poor Si).

Ironically, this user's primary personality imbalance was poorly developed secondary Fi--it turned out she actually was an ENFP providing a perfect example of over-dependence on extroverted attitudes. She reported placing far too much emphasis on the approval of others and couldn't introspect enough to figure out which type was really her. Without a strong introverted function she was left a poor sense of individual self, and showed it through her dependence on the opinions of others to determine her type. She was looking everywhere but the right place--inside."
 

Totenkindly

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I could see that -- it's typically the reliance of Primary and Tertiary pointing in the same direction (extroverted or introverted), with a neglected Secondary.

I mean, you can't just ASSUME it, you still need to verify it somehow, but it's a plausible possibility that needs to be checked out.
 

Mal12345

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I could see that -- it's typically the reliance of Primary and Tertiary pointing in the same direction (extroverted or introverted), with a neglected Secondary.

I mean, you can't just ASSUME it, you still need to verify it somehow, but it's a plausible possibility that needs to be checked out.

Our banned friend is only saying this loopiness can be the cause of mis-typings. On a personal note, consider how often others try to type me here and get it dead wrong - although they believe their call has 100% accuracy. I also read somewhere that tert-Si appears with ISTJ traits, as if Te also has some influence going on there.
 

Totenkindly

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Our banned friend is only saying this loopiness can be the cause of mis-typings.

Honestly, this has been discussed by me and a bunch of other people on this site for at least 2-3 years or more, and I've discussed it on a few other sites as well. It's not a new concept.

On a personal note, consider how often others try to type me here and get it dead wrong - although they believe their call has 100% accuracy. I also read somewhere that tert-Si appears with ISTJ traits, as if Te also has some influence going on there.

It can.

And back when I was obsessing over Ti in my teens, it probably came out more as Te because I would try to control every little detail in a discussion rather than going more Ne and focusing on the broad general truths that had gray in them. (Te typically demands concrete fixation on specific details, But Ti anchored to an S function will head in that direction too.)
 

pinkgraffiti

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oh shit. i think i have that a lot at my workplace: my Ne is going all over the place and needs to express itself, while my Te shouts orders that i need to focus and do my job. besides, my coworkers are way more close-minded than me and don't understand where i'm going with my Ne, so they tend to dismiss me as "crazy", and that often leads me to Te bitchslap. so, how am i supposed to develop my Fi? In a work context i mean....(wow i think i've just realized that it is going back home and doing stuff i like that helps me rebalance my Fi. does that make sense?)

"ENFP/ESTJ: Ne/Te or Te/Ne--Borderline Personality Disorder. The ENFP I described above may have been one of these types. They simultaneously desire to control and dazzle others with their extraordinary leadership and grandiose performances. For the ENFP, this tends to take the form of insisting on consistent, scheduled attention from others for his/her artistic or creative gifts, while for the ESTJ it tends to manifest itself in terms of indignation when others refuse to follow every detail of the user's "visionary" leadership style. This combination, ironically, makes the user extremely dependent upon others for meaning, never really finding a sense of internal balance, no matter how hard he works to create and delegate. While Te leads these types to desire structure and discipline, Ne continually contradicts it by insisting on impulsive displays of creative freedom. Often self-denigrating over the inability to control Ne's impulsive explorations, Te will go to any lengths to keep the user in a position of power and influence, where others must defer to his authority. If Fi/Si were doing its job, these types would recognize that what they're looking for cannot be found outside themselves--they must learn to sometimes live for themselves and only themselves, and forget about external results for a moment. "
 

Mal12345

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Honestly, this has been discussed by me and a bunch of other people on this site for at least 2-3 years or more, and I've discussed it on a few other sites as well. It's not a new concept.

And mistyping goes on forever. So when I was slammed once again with someone claiming I have mistyped myself - which implies that I have been using the wrong type for a good 20 or more years, of all things - I thought I would add this thread as a little reminder of how easy it is to mistype using this method. And I mean the Jungian function method. It's best just to keep typing simple. I could go around and around about my dad's dominant type, but in the long run, he was a male Feeler who always complimented the cook even when the food was bad (such as the time my brother accidentally put powdered sugar instead of flour in our turkey gravy).

Now someone will say, "But don't Thinkers compliment the cook?" Or maybe someone's criticism will go something like, "If he was a Feeler are you assuming your dad didn't think?" I'm not saying he didn't think, but he wasn't a Thinking type in the MBTI. There is a difference between thinking and being a Thinking type. And in terms of the spectacular way in which my dad got along with people, such that he was actually semi-famous where we lived, he was a Feeler beyond any reasonable doubt. An ISFJ to be exact.

And back when I was obsessing over Ti in my teens, it probably came out more as Te because I would try to control every little detail in a discussion rather than going more Ne and focusing on the broad general truths that had gray in them. (Te typically demands concrete fixation on specific details, But Ti anchored to an S function will head in that direction too.)

That sounds like the Ti-Si look I was just describing: an ISTJ appearance with Te-aux. I guess it's like an INTP throwing on the mantel of an ISTJ. This is a known effect of the tertiary loop.
 

Coriolis

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That sounds like the Ti-Si look I was just describing: an ISTJ appearance with Te-aux. I guess it's like an INTP throwing on the mantel of an ISTJ. This is a known effect of the tertiary loop.
This caught my eye, and sounds alot like what my INTP has been doing lately. Any idea what causes someone to slip into this kind of loop, and how to snap them out?
 

luismas

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So mal,

When do you reckon the tertiary mode comes in? Or should it be more like a borderline personality 'disorder' , due to a rather undeveloped secondary function? How does your own loop work?
 

Elfboy

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oh shit. i think i have that a lot at my workplace: my Ne is going all over the place and needs to express itself, while my Te shouts orders that i need to focus and do my job. besides, my coworkers are way more close-minded than me and don't understand where i'm going with my Ne, so they tend to dismiss me as "crazy", and that often leads me to Te bitchslap. so, how am i supposed to develop my Fi? In a work context i mean....(wow i think i've just realized that it is going back home and doing stuff i like that helps me rebalance my Fi. does that make sense?)

"ENFP/ESTJ: Ne/Te or Te/Ne--Borderline Personality Disorder. The ENFP I described above may have been one of these types. They simultaneously desire to control and dazzle others with their extraordinary leadership and grandiose performances. For the ENFP, this tends to take the form of insisting on consistent, scheduled attention from others for his/her artistic or creative gifts, while for the ESTJ it tends to manifest itself in terms of indignation when others refuse to follow every detail of the user's "visionary" leadership style. This combination, ironically, makes the user extremely dependent upon others for meaning, never really finding a sense of internal balance, no matter how hard he works to create and delegate. While Te leads these types to desire structure and discipline, Ne continually contradicts it by insisting on impulsive displays of creative freedom. Often self-denigrating over the inability to control Ne's impulsive explorations, Te will go to any lengths to keep the user in a position of power and influence, where others must defer to his authority. If Fi/Si were doing its job, these types would recognize that what they're looking for cannot be found outside themselves--they must learn to sometimes live for themselves and only themselves, and forget about external results for a moment. "

are ENFP 7w8s more prone to Ne/Te loops than other ENFPs?
 

Mal12345

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So mal,

When do you reckon the tertiary mode comes in? Or should it be more like a borderline personality 'disorder' , due to a rather undeveloped secondary function? How does your own loop work?

The page at http://www.douban.com/group/topic/23092774/ states:

Ti thinks, "I cannot find any logical explanation for social rituals" and Si reinforces this self-isolating, risk-averse behavior by constantly reminding the user: "Remember how badly this went last time you tried?"

That's one possibility. Ti is not necessarily schizotypal. But the basic idea is that Si reinforces a personality disorder through anxious thoughts about reliving unpleasant past episodes particularly in the social realm. The Ti-dom individual is normally a socially pleasant individual, but the Si loop brings out the worst social aspects. The Ti/Si loop is thus bound to repeat past mistakes, thus reinforcing the social anxiety. Tertiary Ne, on the other hand, creates anxious thoughts about the future, but not about social things. It's more along the lines of being prepared for problems blown way out of proportion, such as "what if my car breaks down and I don't have the money to fix it, and I can't get a ride to work, so I lose my job..." This is described as a "loop" because the anxious thoughts cycle around and around repeatedly and chronically. Anxiety leads this individual to seek relief through activities such as drugs and alcohol abuse which make problems seem to go away in the present but create problems in the future, thus reinforcing the cycle of anxious Ne thoughts.
 

Mal12345

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I haven't developed a tert-loop analysis for all 16 types. A partial analysis would only need cover 8 of them because, for example, INFP and INTP have the same tertiary function in Si. The Si and the Ne loops above are the only two I've really pondered.

An Ni loop (ESTJ and ESFJ) plays out, for these controlling or even dominating types, as a desire to be dominated, which manifests as masochism. But it is masochism in a controlled environment, such as occurs during masochistic sex play. This is the stereotypical ESTJ "boss" who commands an army of office employees during the day, and at night the bizarre aspect of the Ni-tert finds a dominatrix to relieve his anxious, secret fears about being a failure by losing control of his world. "Either I am a boss, or I am worthless" all-or-nothing thinking leads to extremes of behavior which may fly out of control, bringing his world he has worked so hard to build crashing down. Through the controlled masochism setting he regains power over himself, over his subjective fears of being worthless, which are compensated for during the day through controlling the objective realm of things and reducing people to objective things to be dominated. This is the loop between external control (Te in this case) and internal control (bizarre Ni behaviors). And thus through the Te-Ni loop, the dominator secretly desires to be dominated.
 

Mal12345

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This caught my eye, and sounds alot like what my INTP has been doing lately. Any idea what causes someone to slip into this kind of loop, and how to snap them out?

This year I had the slightly unpleasant experience of being told by an ISTJ co-worker that "we think a lot alike." He is uninterested in typology so I can safely tell you his statement did not come from any of that kind of analysis but from untrained observation. I'll admit that when working together we've come up with some of the same ideas at the same time. Beyond that the similarity ends (I hope).

But I think one common trait involves how the respective personalities evolve in a social setting. The INTP likes to think that everything inside, psychologically, was self-created and without external influence. This denial system keeps the INTP believing that the social realm is not necessary, is in fact inferior, the proof being the amount of irrational social behavior that goes on in the world. The world is thus kept at a safe, arms distance away, psychologically speaking.

The INTP needs to learn to see that this idea about the social realm is not based on any "rational objective" understanding but on subjective need. This person may even be in denial about the damage that has been incurred through early social experiences. The schizophrenic INTP is an extreme example of this. With enough intelligent insight the INTP can learn to see past the delusional (supposedly intellectual) barriers that protect him from self-knowledge which he believes will only damage him further by exposing him to further danger from the outside, having thoroughly identified with these self-protective intellectual mechanisms.

When I first entered into the personal growth realm my first thought was that I was unhealthily introverted. I simply decided to take note of typical introvert traits and just do the opposite of those. For example, an introvert who is looking for something doesn't ask for help finding it, or is very slow to ask for help; an extravert will say, almost immediately if anybody's around, "Has anybody seen my..." So I worked on more of that kind of spontaneous speech. What I didn't know at the time was that kind of spontaneity is a Pe trait (Pe being equal to Ne or Se). That means I was working on bringing forth an undifferentiated function, albeit indirectly.

Another method was: don't keep myself in comfortable places for long. This 'comfort zone' only serves to maintain psychological defenses. The 'comfort zone' is very general and incudes things such as being reclusive. Another method is to get out and experience life. Since I don't have much joie de vivre to speak of, I use the dutiful necessity of self-maintenance, such as going to work or going to the store, as a reason to push myself into healthy activity.
 

Mal12345

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I'm right here backing Elfboy on this...are we? anyone?

I think he is identifying Te with the 8-wing. It could work the other way, the 8-wing is simply concurrent with the Te-tert, and not that the 7w8 has more problems with the tertiary.
 

Eric B

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I haven't developed a tert-loop analysis for all 16 types. A partial analysis would only need cover 8 of them because, for example, INFP and INTP have the same tertiary function in Si. The Si and the Ne loops above are the only two I've really pondered.

An Ni loop (ESTJ and ESFJ) plays out, for these controlling or even dominating types, as a desire to be dominated, which manifests as masochism. But it is masochism in a controlled environment, such as occurs during masochistic sex play. This is the stereotypical ESTJ "boss" who commands an army of office employees during the day, and at night the bizarre aspect of the Ni-tert finds a dominatrix to relieve his anxious, secret fears about being a failure by losing control of his world. "Either I am a boss, or I am worthless" all-or-nothing thinking leads to extremes of behavior which may fly out of control, bringing his world he has worked so hard to build crashing down. Through the controlled masochism setting he regains power over himself, over his subjective fears of being worthless, which are compensated for during the day through controlling the objective realm of things and reducing people to objective things to be dominated. This is the loop between external control (Te in this case) and internal control (bizarre Ni behaviors). And thus through the Te-Ni loop, the dominator secretly desires to be dominated.
You're saying and "Ni" loop for ESTJ and ESFJ. Do you mean Ne? Or ENTJ and ENFJ (but then that would be aux. And not tert.) Or are you using ither Lenore Thomson's ship model or the original conception of the tertiary as the same attitude as the dominant? (But then you didn't do that with the INxP's in discussing Si as tertiary).
 

Mal12345

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You're saying and "Ni" loop for ESTJ and ESFJ. Do you mean Ne? Or ENTJ and ENFJ (but then that would be aux. And not tert.) Or are you using ither Lenore Thomson's ship model or the original conception of the tertiary as the same attitude as the dominant? (But then you didn't do that with the INxP's in discussing Si as tertiary).

It is what it is.
 

luismas

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That's one possibility. Ti is not necessarily schizotypal. But the basic idea is that Si reinforces a personality disorder through anxious thoughts about reliving unpleasant past episodes particularly in the social realm. The Ti-dom individual is normally a socially pleasant individual, but the Si loop brings out the worst social aspects.

So we could perhaps say that the dominant-tertiary loops are important due to the role they have in amplifying a personality disorder linked to the overdependence on the dominant functions? It has been said that Ni is also somewhat related to schizotypal personality, (I would suggest steering away from the disorder-function debate for now). For instance, how would Ti or Fi affect Ni?
 

luismas

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(I still find it strange in how I can relate to a great part of the INTP mindset. Hm. Second-guessing again.)
 

Mal12345

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I don't understand this. What is it? Which model are you using? Or was it a typo?

There are no definite answers. Ni is supposedly a Shadow function but at any rate it is immature and held in the unconscious. In my mind I am exploring its effects on the consciousness of the ESTJ. My apologies for the confusion of calling it a "loop" function. Even as I was writing about the ESTJ the loop idea didn't make sense and it looked more like some kind of compensating mechanism, something to be explored as a different topic.

I don't have any models to use or any models worked out. And I've been trolled with this "Lenore Thomson" so badly in the past that I've lost interest in that.
 
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