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Judgers Do It Better

Ezra

Luctor et emergo
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
534
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I've thought about squeezing a little more of results from my daily work, and I've thought about this topic in the last few days.

I wrote in my personal diary an idea, that I tend to do things in two ways.

One is letting my wandering mind dictate the speed of my actions, getting things done at a speed thus allowed.

Other is choosing the goal to do and to perform it at the greatest speed possible, constrained with limits that it doesn't wear me out.

I noticed a need for both. But then, I found out that I should Judge when I have need for some wandering, relatively undirected thought processes, and when I have need for more something more directed. I should then choose either of the two modes of action depending on what kind of tasks are more pressing at the moment: those that need P-type brainstorming, or those that need J-type decisiveness.

I've been a close J-P case for my adult life, this is just a more balanced result I've had on this. So, in my opinion, directionless wandering and haphazard thought processes should be subservient to some greater context, some purpose and some plan.

Both are needed, I'd just put my J to control my P.
 

Ezra

Luctor et emergo
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
534
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I've been a close J-P case for my adult life, this is just a more balanced result I've had on this. So, in my opinion, directionless wandering and haphazard thought processes should be subservient to some greater context, some purpose and some plan.

Both are needed, I'd just put my J to control my P.

That's probably a good thing for you, both socially and in your own balance. Because when is balance not a good thing?
 

alcea rosea

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
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3,658
MBTI Type
ENFP
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7w6
I disagree that Judgers get more done.

I have done multitasking and succeeded to reach most of the goals in life that I wanted to reach. Very detailed oriented J person would be in trouble with such big picture multitasking things. (I think.) It's just up to your own motivation.

Structure is not always the thing. Sometimes things get better done with....YES the intuition and improvising! And when a change of plans is needed P's move forward faster.
 

skip

New member
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
95
MBTI Type
INTP
Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers.
So beautifully typical. Perceivers are getting stuff done even when it doesn't look like it to judgers. You're trying to apply your definition of "getting things done" to us and that doesn't work.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
Judgers and percievers have different "rails"

There is structure to how perceivers operate. You can call it being "response-ready." Perhaps just a high-level plan. The details are not "bound" till the time of action, because they cannot be predicted, and there are far too many contingencies to consider. This is especially the case in "troubleshooting" situations. Remember what happened to the best laid plans of Rumpelstiltskin?

The role that a "plan" has to an xNTJ, say is taken up by an "understanding" by an xNTP. Other types will have their various forms of judgment.

As an INTP, the way I prepare is to learn as much as I possibly can about the types of things I will encounter on a day to day basis. This involves some high-level planning, but fairly little detailed planning. If I have a working understanding of the "principles" behind what I face, then I will do well.

Frankly, the problems I like to work on are design problems. If I could already tell you what I needed to do and when, I would have scripted it up, and I would not need to be there. In other words, by the time I come up with a "plan," I am basically done.

However, as an NT, I compulsively stretch myself, and often put myself beyond my depth--that gets me in some amounts of trouble.

IMO, it is better to stick to one's natural style.

However, you may be right in getting things done in general, since design problems are actually a rarity in life.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
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INFJ
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9w1
Meh. It depends. I'm a horrible multi-tasker and there are things I won't even start if I know I won't be able to finish them in a set time period. I know Ps who get more done than I do because they have more energy and they get stuff done without really having a plan. If I don't have a plan, I just drift.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
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INTP
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9w8
No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.
:D This is why ENTJs make good field marshals and INTPs do well advising them.

The very instance you make a plan you limit the possibilities, or your awareness of them. That's fine IF IT'S RIGHT.

You know those days, this is type based and not personal knowledge for obvious reasons, when you made a plan, started executing the plan only to become frustrated, or worse, cock it all up? Well if you have a good advisor at your side then they reduce the number of mistakes and they quite often come up with solutions that no plan would attempt and reveal new methods and such.

I do agree that working within a structure gets structured jobs done faster. Working within a structure also allows structured people to work faster. This is not the same as saying that structure is the best for everything.

Each to their own.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.

Well, of course you're going to work optimally within structure. All that means is that you are, in fact, a J. Go take an extreme P and watch them wilt as they look around them and see a bunch of boundaries that constrict their abilities and make them feel suffocated: see how they work within structure.
 

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
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type
I do agree with Ezra actually:

Judgers get more done, when the structure is known already: because then, they can implement, which is their natural strength--the follow through.

Perceivers are weak on that. However, Perceivers are strong on one thing which Judgers are weak at: Initiation.

Because often, it is Perceivers, especially NPs, who possess the initial spark, the idea, that leads to the plan that can be implemented.

That's why in a team, the NPs tend to function best as spontaneous sparks and ideas generator, whilst the Js function best at implementation.

I know for myself, i'm very weak in follow through; which is why i like to work in a team where the Js are open-minded, able to listen to ideas. They present the problems, i provide the spark of solution, and we brainstorm what is workable, what is not (since often, the INTP's ideas may be too off-the-wall), and then, the implementation is left to them.

Nothing right or wrong, as Ezra has observed. It's about best-fit in a team: what the team requires, and how best to utilise the strength of each member. A good leader would realise that, rather than force-fitting a P into a J role, or a J into a P role.

edit: and yes, usehername, you're absolutely right. My P is definitely confirmed, and i wilted faster than a cut daisy with no water in hot sun in my last workplace, with an extremely J boss of an ESTJ. :doh: EVERYTHING had to be planned. :doh: you couldn't even go from one to ten, you had to go from one, two, three.....*faints*
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
Hmmmm the evaluation of "doing better" and "getting more done" depends on how you define those two things.

How do you compare having numerous ingenious ideas that piles up and not get very far compared to completion of a more bland project? *scratches head* Highly subjective...

Without initial idea, you get no starting point. Without adaptation/implementation (follow-through) you get nothing completed. So the ideal situation as mentioned by Ezra and Elfie would be to bounce it back and forth between P and J. In other words, another lesson on maintaining the balancing act. :yes:

People ought to be flexible... if you cannot meld strengths together, you do not have a team. *coughs* A demonstration of two of my life principles to you Elfie... adaptability with balance :ninja:
 

Gabe

New member
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
590
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ENTP
No, not sex (at least not that I know of). What I mean is that Judgers will often get more done than Perceivers. I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time. It's not some bias against Perceivers; I simply find that with a plan, one can achieve more, and one is very rarely susceptible to doing things one should not, because one already has a plan. Without a plan, one feels without obligation, and hence free, to do what they want when they want. With a plan of action, guilt that one has not done what one set out to do ensures that one does it; in other words, one won't go off the rails. Essentially, you're forcing yourself to adapt to the task at hand as opposed to taking the Perceiver's route of adapting the task to one's mindframe. I'm not saying it's "bad" or "worse" than what the Judger does; it's simply less effective in getting things done IMO. Perhaps the Judging route sacrifices low stress levels for a more accomplished life. I don't know. That's another topic.

ETA: One other thing to mention is that I'm not implying that Judgers do a better job of what they do than do Perceivers, or even that it is equal to the Perceiver's doing a job. The Perceiver might well do a better job. All I'm saying is that Judgers are better at doing more stuff in a given amount of time because they have structure.

nah, not at all true. 'Judgers' that grow up rich and spoiled are just as lazy as anyone. I think you should try to meet some 'percievers' who grew up very poor. This 'lazy', 'hardworking' stuff has a lot more to do with background, experience, and parenting.
 

Gabe

New member
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
590
MBTI Type
ENTP
Also, be reminded that extraverted thinking is very fast on the debate team and in math class, but it's very slow in..
expert chefs don't use measuring cups.
Carpenters don't walk around practicing anylitic geometry problems.
Engineers don't practice solving partial fraction integrals.
Good drivers don't exact relative velocities when deciding whether to pass someone.
and much, much more (go ahead and add more)
 

Thursday

Earth Exalted
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
3,960
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ENTJ
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8w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
could we stop posting these threads that declare one preference better than the other
each type can arrive at the same decision or result, and efficiently
but in a different " type " of way
and if you limit yourself to 4 letters, J or not,
then you don't do it better at all
you're narrow-minded and inhibited

this is not to say that your intentions were not honorable,
but its very ignorant to endorse such a thing
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Also, be reminded that extraverted thinking is very fast on the debate team and in math class, but it's very slow in..
expert chefs don't use measuring cups.
Carpenters don't walk around practicing anylitic geometry problems.
Engineers don't practice solving partial fraction integrals.
Good drivers don't exact relative velocities when deciding whether to pass someone.
and much, much more (go ahead and add more)
Gabe hit a good spot in here.

I have for years recognized the development of a skill from a point where you "plan" it to a point where you "do" it, omitting a phase where you have to consciously think about performing the process.

Planning is a good way of doing stuff you wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

Still, the acme of skill is to do instantaneously. To just reply to some person without stopping to ponder what to say. To do most of anything just without thinking.

Yet, there is so much to be done, an endless, uncountable number of actions that a person can do - so the capability to plan will extend a person's overall capabilities tremendously. Not all can be learned to the greatest extent where you can perform everything without effort.
 

millerm277

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
978
MBTI Type
ISTP
In my opinion, the J type will often get more done, when work is concentrated on one specific task. The P type will get more done overall, although finishing one specific task may take longer, we will finish more things in the end.

For an example of this, in my engineering class our teacher told us to build (small) bridges out of balsa wood, so we could load test them later, and analyze the designs. We all started building at about the same time.

By day 2, my friend, who is definitely a J type, had almost finished one complete side. Meanwhile, I just had a bunch of random glued together pieces, that at first glance weren't much of anything. Fast forward to day 6...I was done, and my friend was still attaching the pieces to connect the sides. Why? Because my J friend wanted to work on the one thing he was working on until it was done, while I skipped around. My method worked better, because I didn't have to wait around for the glue to set.
 

Martoon

perdu fleur par bologne
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
1,361
MBTI Type
INTP
I've been experimenting recently; going with the flow - moving without a plan - and thinking on my feet. And I've recognised that structure increases efficiency in accomplishment all the time.
The big flaw in your experiment, Ezra, is that you haven't tried being a P. You've just tried being a J without a plan. There's more to being a perceiver than trying to "go with the flow" and "think on your feet".

Go take an extreme P
Sorry, just had to quote that. ;)
 

Grayscale

Well-known member
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Dec 20, 2007
Messages
1,965
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ISTP
a preconceived course of action is not necessarily the best course of action

the two approaches have their respective advantages... to planning, the ability to prepare in advance and to make decisions without losing perspective. to "playing it by ear", the most apt response based on the myriad of variables known only in the moment.


my approach has always been one of structure where structure is both advantageous and achievable in an accurate manner, which is far less often than one would think. simply, you only need to know what you need to guess, everything else will make itself clear.

the only way to know how much thinking is required for something is experience.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
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Ezra, unfortunately Ps outnumber Js on the forum. Your theory was dead in the water.
 
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