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Ti and Te

Vizzy

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
229
Enneagram
5w4
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'm not ruling out the possibility of being an INFP at this point, though I'm not convinced from this alone that I've been mistyped. Every description I've read of Ti has confirmed that I use that function, while only some parts of Te descriptions resonate with me.

I'm curious though, how valid/accurate would you consider the points on this function questionnaire (especially for Te and Ti)?
Hey, I'll check out that link after work! Gotta rush.
Just a quick question though - are your ideas of Ti and Te still the same as those from your original post?
 

Silveresque

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Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
1,169
Hey, I'll check out that link after work! Gotta rush.
Just a quick question though - are your ideas of Ti and Te still the same as those from your original post?

No, my original ideas were clearly inaccurate. My perceptions of the two functions are a bit hazy at the moment, which is why I'm reanalyzing and looking for more input.
 

lunalum

Super Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
2,706
MBTI Type
ZNTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
- X is more direct and outwardly focused

Te

- X will look for fallacies and be quick to point them out

Both, moreso Ti

- Y will notice fallacies as well, but may be content to work with an imperfect system or theory

Both, moreso Te

- X may be more directly skeptical and hesitant to work with a flawed system

Both, moreso Ti

- Y can half-accept a theory or system, making use of it while keeping in mind that the results may be inaccurate

- X can half-accept a theory or system as well, but may prefer to refrain from using it until sufficient evidence is found to support it or until it is improved

Not sure about these two, maybe someone else can help me out here....
 

Vizzy

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Jul 27, 2011
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229
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5w4
No, my original ideas were clearly inaccurate. My perceptions of the two functions are a bit hazy at the moment, which is why I'm reanalyzing and looking for more input.
Thanks, I just wanted to clarify that first. :)

If we're deciding between INTP and INFP, I'm wondering whether it'd be better to compare Ti & Te, Fi & Fe, or both dominant functions - Ti & Fi...which would probably make more sense as they're both introverted and equally "conscious" due to their position.
Regarding the cognitive functions test you linked to, the focus seems to be how the Introverted aspect of each function (F, T, S, N) compares to it's Extraverted form.
I think it'd be more helpful, in our case, if the test focused on gauging how the two pairs of introverted functions differ as rational functions, i.e. Introverted F vs T.

Perhaps that's the reason why the descriptions there seem overly fluffy and emotional (nearly cringeworthy) for Feeling, and exclusively analytical and logical for Thinking. You'd think a Fi-user wouldn't be able to work out a technical puzzle, or a Ti-user would care nothing about some "universal spirit of compassion".

Anyway, I should probably be posting this in your Fi vs Ti thread, but I think it's very relevant here. A description by Mythographeas' (an INFP) of Fi from PersonalityCafe:

I'm perfectly mentally capable of rigorous logic, I just question its value and the claim to objectivity. As I see it, the purely rational way of understanding the world is just as much based on irrational assumptions as a purely emotional one - the axiomata on which logic is based are not self-evident if one does not accept self-evidence. They're just as consistent as one another, with all of the Ti knowledge base cohering according to the rules of logic and all of the Fi knowledge base cohering according to principle and integrability with the ideal. As a dominant Ti type can dismiss the Fi knowledge base as irrelevant, so can an Fi dominant type dismiss the Ti knowledge base as irrelevant: e.g., I'm an INFP and an apatheist, meaning that if someone makes an objective and logically defended claim about the existence of God, I'm more likely to respond, "Why should I care? I know right from wrong on my own and it wouldn't change how I behave or what I believe," than to pick apart their argument. I could do the latter, but it's not necessary. Conversely, an INTP may need to pick apart their argument, because it would be insufficient to challenge that they wouldn't care even if it were true: they're interested in the truth for its own sake.

Both seek to achieve a qualitative understanding, but they prioritise different qualities. That's the ultimate difference, I suspect.

What do you think?
 

Silveresque

Active member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
1,169
Thanks, I just wanted to clarify that first. :)

If we're deciding between INTP and INFP, I'm wondering whether it'd be better to compare Ti & Te, Fi & Fe, or both dominant functions - Ti & Fi...which would probably make more sense as they're both introverted and equally "conscious" due to their position.
Regarding the cognitive functions test you linked to, the focus seems to be how the Introverted aspect of each function (F, T, S, N) compares to it's Extraverted form.
I think it'd be more helpful, in our case, if the test focused on gauging how the two pairs of introverted functions differ as rational functions, i.e. Introverted F vs T.

Perhaps that's the reason why the descriptions there seem overly fluffy and emotional (nearly cringeworthy) for Feeling, and exclusively analytical and logical for Thinking. You'd think a Fi-user wouldn't be able to work out a technical puzzle, or a Ti-user would care nothing about some "universal spirit of compassion".

Anyway, I should probably be posting this in your Fi vs Ti thread, but I think it's very relevant here. A description by Mythographeas' (an INFP) of Fi from PersonalityCafe:

I'm perfectly mentally capable of rigorous logic, I just question its value and the claim to objectivity. As I see it, the purely rational way of understanding the world is just as much based on irrational assumptions as a purely emotional one - the axiomata on which logic is based are not self-evident if one does not accept self-evidence. They're just as consistent as one another, with all of the Ti knowledge base cohering according to the rules of logic and all of the Fi knowledge base cohering according to principle and integrability with the ideal. As a dominant Ti type can dismiss the Fi knowledge base as irrelevant, so can an Fi dominant type dismiss the Ti knowledge base as irrelevant: e.g., I'm an INFP and an apatheist, meaning that if someone makes an objective and logically defended claim about the existence of God, I'm more likely to respond, "Why should I care? I know right from wrong on my own and it wouldn't change how I behave or what I believe," than to pick apart their argument. I could do the latter, but it's not necessary. Conversely, an INTP may need to pick apart their argument, because it would be insufficient to challenge that they wouldn't care even if it were true: they're interested in the truth for its own sake.

Both seek to achieve a qualitative understanding, but they prioritise different qualities. That's the ultimate difference, I suspect.

What do you think?

I can certainly relate to Mythographeas' post about Fi. Truth for it's own sake is not as appealing to me as truth that holds personal significance to me. If I think about it, every time I've gone into my focused analytical mode trying to find that kernel of truth, it's because it's something I value personally. I wouldn't invest that much time and effort into finding the truth about something that doesn't really matter. Maybe Fi and Ti really are the same process after all--just with different priorities. Anyways, it looks like I may be an INFP after all. I really appreciate all your help, Vizzy! :hug:
 

527468

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Oct 22, 2008
Messages
1,945
I take it that people don't read about the functions?

Ti's are all about leverage and are masters of improving and taking a half-working system or idea and making it into something new or useful. Ti's might often not know what works but using a mental map will try to get it to work. They often appear intuitive or esoterically knowledgable. They make great innovators and architects and apply some common sense: "internal" judgement.

Te's are the ones who see if a system is already useful, working and adopted by others, and will see to deliver it to a purpose. Te is not so readily capable of internalizing and working out flaws, and will instead be perfectionistic and skeptical. They often appear wise and correct. Because of this decisiveness they are master researchers and planners and apply standards: "external" judgement.

In other words, Ti has internal purpose and Te has external purpose. So I would agree with the OP, though I wanted to add my 2 cents about Ti.
 

Vizzy

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Jul 27, 2011
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229
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5w4
I can certainly relate to Mythographeas' post about Fi. Truth for it's own sake is not as appealing to me as truth that holds personal significance to me. If I think about it, every time I've gone into my focused analytical mode trying to find that kernel of truth, it's because it's something I value personally. I wouldn't invest that much time and effort into finding the truth about something that doesn't really matter. Maybe Fi and Ti really are the same process after all--just with different priorities. Anyways, it looks like I may be an INFP after all. I really appreciate all your help, Vizzy! :hug:
*awkward hug and pat* :laugh: Ugh, now it feels like I was trying to persuade you towards this direction...so, uh, feel free to keep considering! ;)
Anyway, this was fun. Thankyou too!
 

Mr. Cat

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Sep 28, 2011
Messages
153
MBTI Type
INXP
I take it that people don't read about the functions?
A flawed assumption sir! Ive been reading about the functions for 2 days. Never read it once before then!

In other words, Ti has internal purpose and Te has external purpose. So I would agree with the OP, though I wanted to add my 2 cents about Ti.
Your a good teacher. Introverted Thinking is internal and Extraverted Thinking is external. Got it.
 

Craft

Probably Most Brilliant
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
1,221
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
In other words, a Ti-user strives for correctness and a Te-user strives for efficiency. Or is your interpretation something else?

Correction, *might strive.* *Strives* implies "black and whiteness."

I'm not sure about the use of "effective" because to Ti, something is most effective if it's accurate to begin with, and to Te, something is most effective if it is practical and usable.
Effective is as relative as practical and usable. When I say "effective", I mean it as achieving the goal of anything but precision.

(I didn't want to use fuzzy words like 'tendency' because I think no one accepts any of this theorising to be black and white anyway...at least, I hope not)..

Functions are pretty much black and white. How they are manifested isn't.
 

527468

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Oct 22, 2008
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An emphasis on Correctness (Ti) can mean:
- Following a proven method to solve a problem because you think it can bring you the most correct/accurate results.
- Creating your own method to solve a problem because you think it can bring you more correct/accurate results.
- Categorizing and systemizing so that things make logical sense, first and foremost.

An emphasis on Efficiency (Te) can mean:
- Following a proven method to solve a problem because you think it can bring you the result more quickly/efficiently.
- Creating your own method to solve a problem because you think it can bring you the result more quickly/efficiently.
- Categorizing and systemizing so that things make practical sense, first and foremost.

Practicality seems to apply just as well to ISTPs and likely isn't even that type related in the sense of Ti vs Te. The reason why it may not vibe well with INTPs is the fact that their practicality is based on intuitions that are the opposite of physical-realtiy. Their only other decisive function is Fe and it's inferior. I'll explain a bit.

I like this emphasis overall about all functions, that extroverted functions deal closer with matters of efficiency and introverted functions deal closer with matters of correctness. This easily fits with definitions of Te/Ti, Fe/Fi, and Se/Si. However...

with more emphasis I'd add that the 'overall' theme of Xe seems to be a form of decisiveness, with efficiency being one outlet of decisiveness, and Xi as speculation, with correctness being one outlet of speculation.

It definitely works this way looking at descriptions of Fe, Te, and Se as decisive functions, and descriptions of Fi, Ti and Si as speculative functions. The definitions of Ne/Ni in standard material I believe are a little skewed and tricky, but in practice follow this pattern well. If not for the fact of it applying to the rest I couldn't have noticed it with N as well.

INTPs with Ne have flashes of decisiveness ("assumptions of ideas working" or "the meaning/pattern behind what's going on") in their intuitive impressions, which is why the xNTPs are known as light-bulb thinkers. This seems to reflect onto their ideas overall, and has not much to do with Ti, so they're not so quick to act on and prove these hunches. In the same sense, an INTJ with Te secondary won't necessarily act on their Te, they will just know what needs to be done and maybe put it aside or make reservations for another time.
 

StrawMan

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Jan 25, 2010
Messages
109
MBTI Type
ENTP
Couple of suggestions on top of what has been said: Ti is striving for long-term "most correct" solution, Te more for immediate practical solution, that solves the problem now, sufficiently.
Also, Ti is looking for solutions to problems that do not even need addressing right now. Te is less likely to do so, because it's not efficient.

I think Te-users and Ti-users of different types might have a different idea what their T-functions strive for...
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
5,059
MBTI Type
INtp
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Couple of suggestions on top of what has been said: Ti is striving for long-term "most correct" solution, Te more for immediate practical solution, that solves the problem now, sufficiently.
Also, Ti is looking for solutions to problems that do not even need addressing right now. Te is less likely to do so, because it's not efficient.

I think Te-users and Ti-users of different types might have a different idea what their T-functions strive for...

This is precisely how I come into conflict sometimes with Te users. I am interested in far more than just solving the problem *now*. I want to look at underlying principles that will allow us to avoid such problems from happening in the future or if they do arise, they will be easier to solve the next time. What I really hate is when there is a problem and there doesn't seem to be any good logical explanation as to what's causing it.

Some of the Te users seem short sighted in my mind because they just want to solve the problem and don't care so much about the underlying cause. Their attitude is, if it happens again, we'll worry about it then.
 

entropie

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This is precisely how I come into conflict sometimes with Te users. I am interested in far more than just solving the problem *now*. I want to look at underlying principles that will allow us to avoid such problems from happening in the future or if they do arise, they will be easier to solve the next time. What I really hate is when there is a problem and there doesn't seem to be any good logical explanation as to what's causing it.

Some of the Te users seem short sighted in my mind because they just want to solve the problem and don't care so much about the underlying cause. Their attitude is, if it happens again, we'll worry about it then.

If you pay the project costs, ... :D
 

Redbone

Orisha
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Apr 27, 2010
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MBTI Type
ENFP
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9w8
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sx/so
This is precisely how I come into conflict sometimes with Te users. I am interested in far more than just solving the problem *now*. I want to look at underlying principles that will allow us to avoid such problems from happening in the future or if they do arise, they will be easier to solve the next time. What I really hate is when there is a problem and there doesn't seem to be any good logical explanation as to what's causing it.

Some of the Te users seem short sighted in my mind because they just want to solve the problem and don't care so much about the underlying cause. Their attitude is, if it happens again, we'll worry about it then.

^Yes.

I can have a hard time talking to dom or aux Te folks. It can be hard discussing ideas with them because they can't see why in the world why I be spending time thinking about this if I'm not going to do something with the idea(s). I've even had them do things like show my writing or ideas to other people because they want to get things started (had to put a stop to that).

I admire/envy their ability to get things done. I'm especially awed when the problem seems complex and they can cut right to the entry point of the solution. I have several friends that I will turn to when I get caught up in analysis paralysis. They are great at saying, "Look, I know you have this going on but you should do this, that, or the other first. Then do a, b, c.".
 

entropie

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Guess this doesnt necessarily and automatically mean you are incapable of focussing. Especially if you are new to a topic everyone is rather inclined to breathe in every availiable information and go on a lot of tangents.

But if your heart one day will be focussed on the completion of a project or if your head will be in danger to be put on a stick, focus comes automatically :)
 

htb

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May 14, 2007
Messages
1,505
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Ti is logical and mathematical. Te is empirical and systematic. Ti is quantitative and variable. Te is qualitative and constant.

I've found that it's easier to determine function via observed preference. In humor, for example, Ti-types seem to seek the modularity and randomness in wordplay while Te-types turn to the compound and multiplicative nature of conceptual satire.
 

Pinker85

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Jun 20, 2011
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[MENTION=13402]Saturned[/MENTION] [MENTION=13844]redcheerio[/MENTION]


Ti and Te both look for fallacies and problems as they're thinking functions.
A Ti-user will be just as likely to point out something that's not consistent...especially on online forums, and I can attest to that. ;)

I'm hesitant to utlilize or work with a flawed system/test because if the principles are fishy, it'll probably produce flawed results, leading to misunderstandings and incorrect answers - all unnecessarily. This may be a simplification, but why bother branching something out when the root was questionable to begin with? I'd rather just stay at Step 1 and fully understand the root of the problem. I may never fully understand it, which may also mean I'll never get to the stage where something real is produced but I guess, as redcheerio said, that's one problem INTPs face. (And I speak for myself when I say I personally don't NEED to come to a conclusion anyway. If it weren't for external pressure...)
Te-users will (half-)accept a system and use it for the sake of reaching any conclusion/getting some empirical data. Point is, this sort of Te-ish tangible thinking (e.g. empirical data and something to show) is what our society seems to prefer.

Disclaimer: In my opinion.

Can really relate to this.
 

Chiharu

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Feb 22, 2011
Messages
662
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Ti works to perfect something from the inside out, dealing with core flaws first and then things on the surface.
Te works outside in, usually dealing with what ever it sees first, so the system can limp on until it gets to the core issues.
Neither is better or worst, but in different situations one might be more efficient.

Just my thoughts, sorry if anyone has said something similar, no time to check.
 
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