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Fe Fakeness

Kalach

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So what I'm thinking is Fe is a collection of judgments along the lines of "this is right; that is wrong". They provide for a structured appreciation of the outer world. Since these are judgments for and about the outer world, questions of how, whether and/or when these judgments are followed are questions of action: doing the right thing, going the wrong way, indicating by your action that you feel this other thing, and so on.

Leadership then is a matter of indicating where the forms and paths are and how to perform them.

Perhaps then, true leadership lies in discovering and making available the best paths for the right person in the right context.


I'm recalling too onemoretime's point about Fe being contextual and I'm wondering if there is not a more accurate characterisation of "true leadership".


I'm also NOT ruling out the possibility that Fe judgments will suit a person preferring Fi, but I do note that if one naturally orients outward for the signs and signals and actual location of feeling, then you're in a better position to feel positive reward in accommodating the forms and paths.


And I'm thinking what we seem to be trolling calling fakeness is most apparent in those times when Fe people are overriding the feelings of the moment, the better to build these larger paths and forms.
 

chris1207

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Thanks for not coming out and supporting me TP's... thanks a lot. Let these Fi fools roll all over me.... *dejected*

I really do believe that TP/FJ is the way of the future and that TJ/FP represents a useless vestige of our past....
 

entropie

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Thanks for not coming out and supporting me TP's... thanks a lot. Let these Fi fools roll all over me.... *dejected*

I really do believe that TP/FJ is the way of the future and that TJ/FP represents a useless vestige of our past....

You must know TPs are very lazy and those Fi folks will never learn it. So what, lets go drink a coffee together thats more fun than hanging out here :)
 

chris1207

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I see! You guys with Te expected me to substantiate my position with external authorities on the subject (Te), much like Orangeappled did. Ha! Not only would Ti not do that but certainly not in the inferior position. Ti, as it pertains to me, seeks truth in my complex hypothetical scenarios (Ni) by examining available data (Se). Of course it has a flexible quality. It's inferior to Ni. They do have the same structure though, which is what makes this method viable. I've used it in other areas of my life to great affect.

This is also an instance where Fi gets a hair in ass about something and then suddenly Fi users have an inability to listen to those who have offended them. The fact is that I don't want to connect or work toward a connection with people like this. One wrong move sets off a bomb that Fe users will be attempting to repair forever. Apologies don't work, Te, which values competency in all spheres, would hardly respect that.

As far as me being an idiot, ever hear of Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? I talked about it earlier. Te and Fi are firmly nested in the second tier, concerning themselves with self-preservation (safety) while Fe is the force that binds people in the third tier, the social one. Just because we were able to teach Non-NFP Fi users to not be prejudiced doesn't mean they would've arrived there on their own. It took Fe users communicating these values to NFP's to get them to realize the error of their people's ways and assist them in coming out of the dark ages.

Also, let's face it: Te = putting square blocks into round pegs some times... It's hardly difficult to see why you folks wouldn't be able to see past your noses, rationally speaking. While it may be said that both NFP's and NFJ's contributed to the civil rights movement, which I believe has improved the quality of life for all, it's hardly the case that Te had any part in helping the technology boom we've been experiencing. People that wield Ti, such as NTP's, are the ones responsible for such advances. It's that outside of the box logic that enables them to do so. Te is far to bound up in looking for externalized verifications of it's position. It's Ti's cool, detached nature that will lead us to find some of the greatest innovations.

Time and time again this has been true, e.g. Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein (Karl Jung and David Keirsey as well.)

You can't speak of the merits of Fe without speaking of the merits of Ti. You wouldn't be typing on your computer without it. You wouldn't have your iPod/other MP3 player or Cellphone either. Ti makes communication (Fe) between disparate people happen.

Te merely maintains, it cannot innovate, such is it's weakness.
 

chris1207

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Actually, let me make a further nuance. I was partially wrong on the NFP part. It's entirely probable that they may've wanted to support the civil right movement on account of their experiencing first-hand (Si) the injustices inherent in a prejudiced system. To not mention that would be to discredit them...

Also, I love the fact that you know nothing of the nature of Ti, Zara. Just because I refine my theory does not mean it's bullshit or that I have recanted it. I am merely making a further distinction that I was unaware of before. Given the nature of the conscious mind vs the unconscious mind, it's hardly surprising that I would miss something...
 

Southern Kross

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^ Chris we don't mind Ti logic - Fi totally understands justification through theoretical argument. We just don't see how your premises lead to your conclusions. :shrug:

Edit: And do be careful about making such disparaging comments about Te. Much of what you have said could be equated with the Fe/Fi divide. Je functions are about creating external systems; these are designed to simplify the Ji functions for the purpose of expediency and workability.
 

entropie

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^ Chris we don't mind Ti logic - Fi totally understands justification through theoretical argument. We just don't see how your premises lead to your conclusions. :shrug:

Maybe you take the wrong drugs ! :)
 

chris1207

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So what I'm thinking is Fe is a collection of judgments along the lines of "this is right; that is wrong" Actually that is Fi. As I said before, introverted functions are dichotomous in nature. Rather you may glean this impression on account of the combination of Fe with Pi. They provide for a structured appreciation of the outer world Structure is an illusion, a combination again of Je and Pi. It is a combination of Je's focus on impact and Pi's focus on temporality. Since these are judgments for and about the outer world, questions of how, whether Both Ni and/or when Si these judgments are followed are questions of action: doing the right thing, going the wrong way, indicating by your action that you feel this other thing, and so on.

Leadership then is a matter of indicating where the forms and paths are and how to perform them. Very True. People with Je as their primary are predisposed to managing the outside world, which then fuels the development of competent leadership as one matures

Perhaps then, true leadership lies in discovering and making available the best paths for the right person in the right context Pi.


I'm recalling too onemoretime's point about Fe being contextual Bad term. Fi and Pe is 'contextual', in the sense that they are flexible and changing depending on the situation. Fe is rather a cognitive function that 'pertains to context'and I'm wondering if there is not a more accurate characterisation of "true leadership".


I'm also NOT ruling out the possibility that Fe judgments will suit a person preferring Fi, but I do note that if one naturally orients outward for the signs and signals and actual location of feeling, then you're in a better position to feel positive reward in accommodating the forms and paths We are more aware of the impact that our actions will have. True.


And I'm thinking what we seem to be trolling calling fakeness is most apparent in those times when Fe people are overriding the feelings of the moment Fi and Pe, the better to build these larger paths and forms. True. Somewhat like an individual that paves a road before cars travel on it. We are facilitators of cooperation

Yay! Someone with a substantive argument on the nature of these cognitive functions (actually I have to go back and read the rest, I r tired.) Again, thank you, Kalach, for coming in and having a rational argument to act as a counter to mine. While I certainly didn't facilitate communication with my desire to divorce myself from Fi sensibilities, I do appreciate your refreshing perspective.
 

Kalach

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I, for one, welcome our new FJ overlords. Though they are not aware that their instinctive reaction to "Fi" is fundamentally a rejection of introverted thinking, and the pogroms may be damaging, still, they'll turn on the TPs soon enough and that can only be a good thing.

"It wasn't our fault," they cry. And I'll agree. It wasn't their fault. It was their subconscious.

And then, when their empire crumbles into dust, as surely it must, there'll need to be someone to call them maniacs. Someone will have to pound the sand in front of the giant Lady Gaga statue and damn them to hell.

Someone.
 

chris1207

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I, for one, welcome our new FJ overlords. Though they are not aware that their instinctive reaction to "Fi" is fundamentally a rejection of introverted thinking, False. My argument is a fundamental rejection of the principles of Fi. Just because I use Ti to illustrate social concepts (Fe with Ni) doesn't mean that my arguments undermine the structural integrity of Ti and the pogroms may be damaging, still, they'll turn on the TPs soon enough and that can only be a good thing Look closer and observe the elated nature of FJ/TP interaction.

"It wasn't our fault," they cry. And I'll agree. It wasn't their fault. It was their subconscious.

And then, when their empire crumbles into dust, as surely it must, there'll need to be someone to call them maniacs. Someone will have to pound the sand in front of the giant Lady Gaga statue and damn them to hell.

Someone.

I do like the analogy to other 'great' empires.

Also, we aren't so much overlords as much as Fe and Ti are the new standards. Ever wonder why our society is so backwards...
 

Kalach

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There are no principles of Fi. As a judgment system it varies from person to person. What is universal however would be its nature as an introverted judgement system. Just like... Ti.

Love yourself, #1207. Love is the way.
 

chris1207

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If you take into account that within the theory, Fi is largely sourced from "primordial images" which come from the "collective unconscious", then it's arguably more "universal" than Fe is. Fe is far more contextual - in line with the values of the family, culture, social clique, country, etc.

Fi is about fundamental principles; it is abstract, basic concepts cutting to the heart of why something is important or necessary for humanity. It is subjective in that it focuses on the inner underlying image - or the the universal principle - in its most pure, simple form, so as to keep the external from corrupting it (because the masses are known to become unreasonable mobs). In this sense, Fi is striving to maintain a consistency so as to protect the universal nature of these ideas or images, and that's why it resists degradation to mere social rules - it resists "the object" in that sense.

Fi seeks to protect, perfect & simply understand these moral ideals by keeping them abstract (in that pre-verbal, undefined form). Fe seeks to define them to make them viable; that's all well & good, but not when the context changes & the rule is no long applicable. Frankly, this is why Fi types are more flexible in general; they see the underlying principle & how it can be applied in many ways across contexts. It's often the very same moral at root across these contexts though. Fi does, however, reason on these concepts & do much of its own interpretation, which certainly makes it subjective. This is why the focus is on adapting these concepts to the needs of individuals (not making blanket rules). So what's right for you is right for me, but that may still manifest very differently because we are two different "contexts", even as the core principle is very much the same.

Lol! Thanks again Kalach. The bolded is Te. I wonder if Orange is aware of how bound up her conception of Fi is with Te. Not surprising given that Te is her inferior (don't worry... no hate :) )

Also, I like the fact that she coordinated two disparate functions with the phrases "inner underlying image", which I'm not even sure appropriately conveys Fi, with "universal principle", which most assuredly is Te, via the conjunction 'or', which implies 'equals'.
 

uumlau

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Expanding on Kalach's point, more generally, there are no "principles" as such to be associated with any cognitive function. Nor are there any foundational axioms. Rather, the functions are about how one thinks and perceives, and only indirectly nudge one to choose one set of principles/values/axioms over another.
 

chris1207

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There are no principles of Fi. Only true if it exists in a vacuum without Te. I supposed I should've said "The principled nature of Fi" As a judgment system it varies from person to person. What is universal however would be its nature as an introverted judgement system. Just like... Ti. Don't think for one second that my logic is flawed just because I recourse to the structure of the different cognitive functions.

Love yourself, #1207. Love is the way. How very Fi of you. I will tell you straight up that I do indeed "Love myself" quite frequently :p Maybe I should learn to find new alternative avenues for such endeavors...

Nuff said.
 

chris1207

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Expanding on Kalach's point, more generally, there are no "principles" as such to be associated with any cognitive function. Nor are there any foundational axioms. Rather, the functions are about how one thinks and perceives, and only indirectly nudge one to choose one set of principles/values/axioms over another.

Alright, this has been a great exercise of my new-found Ti. *flexes* You all are clearly not good at bridging gaps in understanding (except, to an extent, Kalach who withholds judgment about others' perspectives, knowing full-well what he knows and what he doesn't know (the Fe and Ti perspectives)). This is why the world hate INTJ's. They're the biggest self-aggrandizers of them all ("most independent of all the types".) You simply know that you do not understand or appreciate my perspective. No wonder INTP's flee in droves to their site.

The fact is, this theory was created by an INTP and fostered by an INTP. You'd be fools to think that as Te users you could understand it's principles. And I'm a fool for debating with you. I suppose it was the dream of unifying people under one framework of thinking. I do like the fact that I, a feeling dominant individual, was able to run logical circles around NTJ's *Achievement Unlocked* Oh well... *uses Ti for more effective results elsewhere*
 

chris1207

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Anyone know of an easy way to take pages of posts and put them in a document? I wanna frame my achievement and call it "On the Nature of INTJ Ignorance, Hubris, and Ultimate Jackassery" :D ???

Not to mention their uninquisitive nature...
 

Kalach

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I'm beginning to have an idea though of why the principles of Fe are so difficult to put into words. Either it's because as logic they look, well, like an explosion at a Barbie factory or (same thing really) because they genuinely do lose their motive power when objectified. They are supposed to be represented by passions on display, smiles and frowns and Barbie parts. In words, they are without their vital substance? It's in action that they are real and compelling? Which is to say, constructive. Or at least, with constructions (and destructions) in mind.

Is that... true?



^ my favorite question for FJs. It's unsettling, but there often isn't an answer available when it gets asked as above. The question "does this description of the system and conditions of the world match what you experience?" doesn't seem to fly.
 
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