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Fe Fakeness

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Glycerine

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My sense of self tells me "why should I give a shit what others think? Many people need to get a stick out of their butt" HAH! :biggrin: I grudgingly am too considerate and "too nice" for my own good. Darn that Fe bugger!
 

INTP

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Not a horrible explanation, but still doesn't tell the whole story.

You're around the early 20th century or so (and before, obviously).

Better than most, but still not good enough. We've gone further than that.

I know its not the whole story, writing the whole story would take so long time that i cba to do that. but this is something that explains subjective factor of Te and no matter how many positives on being objective you find, it doesent remove this very large factor in being subjective.
 

INTP

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Possibly it was G.I. Gurdjieff.

No idea if someone said it before me, would be pretty weird if someone didnt because its so obvious if you understand even the basics of psycholgy
 

Giggly

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My sense of self tells me "why should I give a shit what others think? Many people need to get a stick out of their butt" HAH! :biggrin: I grudgingly am too considerate and "too nice" for my own good. Darn that Fe bugger!

I used to be this way too until I realized that they don't care.
They have a personal bias/grudge against Fe and it's as simple as that and it won't ever change.

Has it changed in all these years? No, it hasn't.
 
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Glycerine

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I used to be this way too until I realized that they don't care.
They have a personal bias/preference (against) and it's as simple as that and it won't ever change.

Has it changed in all these years? No, it hasn't.

The annoying thing is that I am typically highly aware of the social dynamics/ how people are reacting towards me/social rules but I like to detach from it all because I am so sensitive to it all. I just don't want to deal with it and engage it on my own terms. If I could get rid of my Fe domness, I would.
 

Giggly

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The annoying thing is that I am typically highly aware of the social dynamics/ how people are reacting towards me/social rules but I like to detach from it all because I am so sensitive to it all. I just don't want to deal with it and engage it on my own terms. If I could get rid of my Fe domness, I would.

Haha I used to be like that too, then I just got tired. You should be proud of yourself though. You're beautiful and perfect just the way you are.
 

Giggly

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The annoying thing is that I am typically highly aware of the social dynamics/ how people are reacting towards me/social rules but I like to detach from it all because I am so sensitive to it all. I just don't want to deal with it and engage it on my own terms. If I could get rid of my Fe domness, I would.

Haha I used to be like that too, then I just got tired. You should be proud of yourself though. You're beautiful and perfect just the way you are.
 
G

Glycerine

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We should start a "Fe rehab" group. :)

It's funny but I used to be like how most people seemed to describe "Fe doms" when I was little (some periods I would be strongly Fe and other times, I would be very much in a Ni-Ti loop) but as I got older I didn't want to be bothered w/ people. :laugh:
 

KDude

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I'm only particularly selfish when it comes to anything that falls under the term "work" - and I don't just mean employment.. I mean, work in the Newtonian sense. In my opinion, people who want me to do things tend to be more selfish anyways. The audacity.. expecting me to physically exert myself out of the blue. Like I give a shit about painting your house with you. If you enjoy it so much, then leave me alone and have fun. That said, I'll buy people lunch and loan out things. I think I'm pretty generous that way. And, I'd say, for the most part, generous with other opinions. I don't know the ultimate truth, and as long as they don't, we'll probably be cool. Most of the time.
 

Kalach

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Te tries to put out logical and rational explanation into an object in external world.

Your Ti is showing. "Tries"? There's effort involved in noticing something in the world and making a stipulation around it? "I read this totally cool thing on the Internet about this cool guy called Jung. Let's say this Jung stuff is true, right, and it means introverted truth seekers are scared witless over this dumb idea of objectiontonie or something."

Then introverted hoopla can get to work. Then. After the stipulation. Particularly in ITJ. ETJ may do something more immediate with the world.

but what is taken in(introverted) from the object shapes the rational explanations by leaving somethings out and taking somethings in based on intuitions and feelings, also not everything is noticed.

Nowai! Are you, like, saying I'm a perceiver? That I run most of my thinking through a perception process, not a truth process? Get away! You kidder.

This is the reason why, even tho Te tries to be objective by following reason, its as subjective as anything else in human mind.. reasons that Te use to rationalize come from subjective processes, so it makes Te subjective too, no matter how strongly it strives on being objective by following reason and logic.

Give it up. Your value system is like ten inches below your skirt. WE CAN SEE IT!!!


[Goshdarn you bounders]. Own up to this hysterical attachment to the one value you endlessly can't have. If you want to ping INTJs in the same way, ask for the truth of RIGHT and GOOD. An objective function will never be objective in the subjective sense you mindlessly require, and that's about as telling a criticism as saying that hypotheses vary over time. IT'S YOU WHO WANT THIS "REAL" OBJECTIVITY. IT'S YOUR SOURCE AND HOPE. IT DRIVES YOUUUUUUUUUUU!

And now you want to find a way to tell me I fail to reach YOUR standard when I use MY functions? Welcome to your world.
 

Zarathustra

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I know its not the whole story, writing the whole story would take so long time that i cba to do that. but this is something that explains subjective factor of Te and no matter how many positives on being objective you find, it doesent remove this very large factor in being subjective.

And no matter how much you want to harp on this subjective factor, it does not remove the plentiful and significant objective factors.
 

Kalach

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so-o-o-o...

we have Ti users in a tizzy about Te objectivity. This has revealed the presence of a value, "objectivity". Interestingly, I think we might even be able to say how "true" comes to exist now. It's this "objectivity". Objectivity is the exclusion of external feeling compromises from decision-making cognition. Worked to it's fullest extreme, whatever is marked by this objectivity can also be called "true". Strangely, the Ti people are (or were) pointing at Fi as a containment in a Te judgment system, mostly because it's semi-conscious and directs "truth" judgments by introducing a subjective, divisive, personal focus into decisioneering. And I say "strangely" because though Fi should be a nightmarish problem for Ti, it's the practice of Te that's really making the waves. It functions just as Fe does, taking world cues and making stipulations. It, like Fe, is all over the place, slatternly blessing this or that situation with a truth value if it takes a fancy. Ti types seem to think this wanton splattering of the world with "truth" is a result of subjective choices when what subjective choices are more likely to urge is caution in the areas we care about. If "true" actually is valued, or more exactly if the truth process actually is valued, then when we care about something, we'll move to a heightened awareness of when and where we're performing adequately. If it's important that we be part of some situation, it'll be important that we get our involvement right...

That's to say, [big leap] there is some conceptual connection between Te and Fi. Both are judgment systems, but neither can function without the other. In simple terms (because I haven't discovered the complex terms yet), you can't care about mapping the external world unless you care about something at all. It's something about not being able to develop a truth without first caring about truth per se, and something about not being able to conclude what's right and wrong for yourself without first wanting to know what's real in the world.

So how does it work for Ti and Fe?

You can't care for things of the external world unless you think? To feel in accordance with external world cues never happens unless somewhere you are able to judge categorical differences without reference to emotion?

Note: these are conceptual connections, not conscious processes. The idea is Fe evaluations will never exist unless held within their judgment is some reference to basic distinctions between terminological categories... or whatever the hell it is Ti does at its core.

And why? Because Fe, like Te, is a judgment that reflects the world. Without an i aspect present to influence decision, in fact to create decision, then these judgments would be little more than daily records of what was seen for at least as long as we can remember it.


There is some more thought to do on this scheme and it may perhaps not have been done yet elsewhere. It's perhaps some attempt to explicate not just that but also how rejected consciousness is present unconsciously in preferred consciousness. Consider yourself blessed to be part of a work in progress.
 

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And no matter how much you want to harp on this subjective factor, it does not remove the plentiful and significant objective factors.

There is a striving towards objectivity in Te, but in order to be objective, you need all info and totally dropping all factors causing subjectivity, and sorry honey, but thats simply not going to happen, ever, in any situation.
 

Kalach

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Are we gonna have to drag Si into this? The deep distrust of unexpected interpretations is not serving you well today. The objective you speak of only requires that level of effort if its measure is the removal of worldly influence. If worldly stamp is allowed, objectivity is a one-step process. But since the impulse is to remove worldly influence, indeed all worldly influence and not just the particular worldly influence that creates this particular value... etc and so on this is taking a long time.
 

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Are we gonna have to drag Si into this? The deep distrust of unexpected interpretations is not serving you well today. The objective you speak of only requires that level of effort if its measure is the removal of worldly influence. If worldly stamp is allowed, objectivity is a one-step process. But since the impulse is to remove worldly influence, indeed all worldly influence and not just the particular worldly influence that creates this particular value... etc and so on this is taking a long time.

I dont think we do, but you are welcome to do so if you want. but then imo its also important to talk about inferior Se, which can lead to projections(interpreting what is seen in very biased way) and about how E functions come from inside, not outside, even tho they are seen outside, and how this "outside' is actually inside of your head on your occipital lobe and other brain areas processing the visual information.
 

Kalach

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What's taking a long time is the Fe/Ti users admission that "objectivity" is a subjective value, that it's a value that applies only to a certain range of human activities, and that worship of this value undermines your ability to see merit in other systems.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY! A VALUE IS NOT A VALUE IF YOU DON'T RANK IT HIGHER THAN ALTERNATIVES. But this missionary zeal is bringing the smallpox with it.



ETA: Hmmm.... I wonder if that'll backfire. It opens the door for the haterz to make similar claims about Fi. Which is a bad thing?
 

INTP

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What's taking a long time is the Fe/Ti users admission that "objectivity" is a subjective value, that it's a value that applies only to a certain range of human activities, and that worship of this value undermines your ability to see merit in other systems.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY! A VALUE IS NOT A VALUE IF YOU DON'T RANK IT HIGHER THAN ALTERNATIVES. But this missionary zeal is bringing the smallpox with it.



ETA: Hmmm.... I wonder if that'll backfire. It opens the door for the haterz to make similar claims about Fi. Which is a bad thing?

But the deal is that its not objective if its subjective..

Like i already said at the beginning that objectivity is just an illusion of ones own subjective view on something being rationalized, thus it just looks objective, but is just an illusion.

You Te people are the ones who need time to get this. objectivity is not just the highest value, its subjective to value one ovdr another. Objectivity is when there is no value over anything, but just what is. your interpration of what is, is subjective, even tho if it happens to match the objective reality. you are being subjective when you choose one over another, with true objectivity there is all, so no need to choose one over another because it has more value.

Even if you take your perception of your computer screen, its not the computer screen you perceive, but a subjective visual representation of the computer screen on your visual cortex.
 

Kalach

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But the deal is that its not objective if its subjective..

Like i already said at the beginning that objectivity is just an illusion of ones own subjective view on something being rationalized, thus it just looks objective, but is just an illusion.

You Te people are the ones who need time to get this. objectivity is not just the highest value, its subjective to value one ovdr another. Objectivity is when there is no value over anything, but just what is. your interpration of what is, is subjective, even tho if it happens to match the objective reality. you are being subjective when you choose one over another, with true objectivity there is all, so no need to choose one over another because it has more value.

You're doing it again.


Plus, the counter argument is, literally, about 2000 years old.

Objectivity is an illusion.
No such claim can be taken to be objective.
Let's move on.



Why not just admit that the paradox you drive yourself with is productive. It actually forces you to constantly seek a perfection in reasoning that along the way, this thread notwithstanding, leads you to create splendid demonstrations of validity. You desire a perfection that cannot be reached without excising all contingent content from your experience of the world, and this, while being an impressive null to aim for, creates an ability to [blah blah blah whatever INTPs are good for] Fe.

And why would anyone seek a particular perfection if it were not valued?



ETA: the irony being of course, that such an admission probably seems to diminish the potency of the value. If the seeking is acknowledged to be the seeking of a value, it can be relaxed because values are merely chosen things, not actually real... and lo, there goes rigour, right out the window to splash around in all the puddles of love.
 

Zarathustra

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Game. Set. Match.

To summarize: in order to best accomplish what we value, we can't outright deny the possibility that what we aim for is actually possible.

So, INTP, if you won't deny the possibility that we might be able to read the situation in the world well enough to apply the correct solution, we won't deny the possibility that you might be able to read the image in your mind well enough to create an accurate rationalist model of the universe.

Deal?

And, for full and fair disclosure, shall you choose not to accept, the only other option is the final solution: the elimination of all INTPs...
 

Kalach

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To summarize: in order to best accomplish what we value, we can't outright deny the possibility that what we aim for is actually possible.

It is possible, but it's null. Jung actually writes about that in relation to Ti. I forget exactly what he said because it interested me mostly in terms of how it generalised to all introverted function, that the final aim is the null. And I've been trying to think what expresses whatever finally impossible dream drives the operation of Ni. "Objectivity" does it for Ti, and is a contradictory notion of subjectivity so transcendent that it is free of subject, so maybe "Reality" is the Ni bogeyman/dancing girl. We know it's all subjectivity that we're on about, but the goal is to know completely "the real", the great and wonderful whole picture of everything and the way it all joins, and the key concept that holds everything as one.

Or maybe not.

Anyway... to at least gesture at the thread topic, and assuming any of the above is true, "objectivity" is some kind of drive that exists within a person who embraces Fe as an organisational system. (An organisational system for expressing feeling or for being feeling?)

The existence of Fe functioning (being aware as we must that Fe is a built up system, and isn't emotion itself... it's the choice of entity about which to feel?) is supported (unconsciously) by the existence of this dream of objectivity. One is not free to feel willy-nilly, one is bound to follow reasoned connection, valid pathways... somewhere, somehow... over the rainbow... the reasoning that "Fe" represents is obliged to... to... to............................ .

I don't freakin' know.
 
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