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Fe Fakeness

SilkRoad

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:yim_rolling_on_the_

And this, this is just laughable.

I have an ESFJ mother, and my girlfriend's mother is an ESFJ.

You're trying to sell this bullshit to the wrong person.

See, I think this is what Fidelia was trying to get at earlier. Even in the light of all your rhetoric about wanting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, why is the above necessary, and what do you hope to accomplish with it?
 

Zarathustra

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See, I think this is what Fidelia was trying to get at earlier. Even in the light of all your rhetoric about wanting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, why is the above necessary, and what do you hope to accomplish with it?

I thought what she said was offensive.

I started with just the laugh.

Then I added the line about it being laughable.

Then I wanted to explain myself a bit more.

*

If it makes you feel any better, the poster has pm'ed me with questions on the topic, and we're having a nice, pleasant discussion.
 

SilkRoad

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I thought what she said was offensive.

I started with just the laugh.

Then I added the line about it being laughable.

Then I wanted to explain myself a bit more.

If it makes you feel any better, the poster has pm'ed me with questions on the topic, and we're having a nice, pleasant discussion.

^ That's good to hear.

It seems though that this is a fairly common INTJ tactic (derisiveness, mockery and trying to make the other person feel intellectually inferior), and I don't think it's always going to end in a pleasant discussion. Despite everyone's hatred of Fe, surely there should be some comprehension that an avoidance of mud-slinging will smooth the way for better discussions and the discovery of the truth? Because make no mistake, the above is mud-slinging.
 

Jaguar

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That's why it's quite easy for both Fe and Fi users clashes when they both wanted to take the lead within the same community--which leads to Fe users will serve as a gatekeeper and Fi users will serve as a crusader--both for a greater and better cause of humanity.

Ah, the Fe gatekeepers. That's the exact word that is used in business for the type of people who guard the decision-makers. They can be firm and charming, but easily removed from the path. As for the Fi crusaders, a great example is in the movie, Runaway Jury.

To cut to the chase - during jury selection a guy stands up, smashes fake blood all over his chest and yells, "This is the blood of innocent children because of the greedy gun companies. I WANT TO BE HEARD!!!!! I WANT TO BE HEARD!!!" The security guards drag the guy out by his arms and legs while he's still screaming.

Harvey Milk just came to mind, from decades ago. Definitely an Fi crusader, who stood up for what he believed in—gay rights— while he clashed with the poster girl for conservative Fe values and social norms at an extreme - Anita Bryant. That was the quintessential Fi-Fe battle. Unfortunately, Milk was murdered while in public office.
 

Zarathustra

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^ That's good to hear.

It seems though that this is a fairly common INTJ tactic (derisiveness, mockery and trying to make the other person feel intellectually inferior), and I don't think it's always going to end in a pleasant discussion. Despite everyone's hatred of Fe, surely there should be some comprehension that an avoidance of mud-slinging will smooth the way for better discussions and the discovery of the truth? Because make no mistake, the above is mud-slinging.

Thank you for trying to impose your values on me.

Here, how about we strike a deal, you and me, on behalf of all TeFi users and TiFe users: if a Ti-user never again tries to pass off for truth something that is blatantly false, I and my INTJ brethren will never again offend their sensibilities by blasting it (and possibly them) for doing so. Deal?
 

SilkRoad

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Thank you for trying to impose your values on me.

Here, how about we strike a deal, you and me, on behalf of all TeFi users and TiFe users: if a Ti-user never again passes off for truth something that is blatantly false, I and my INTJ brethren will never again offend their sensibilities by blasting it (and possibly them) for doing so. Deal?

You didn't answer my questions. :)

So, you think that insulting other people is going to help you/them get closer to the truth in a more effective manner?
 

Noon

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jsLJ0.jpg
 

redcheerio

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This!

Whilst this is a general NT trait. NTP's don't seem to do anything about untruth and ENTJ's get distracted and move on (being extroverts). I think it really really bugs INTJ's though.

Everyone should just stop and think about this. I've said the same thing for years, yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. It's such an important point. I've seen so many communities devolve into ignorant, untruthful Fe-parties with too much noise and no signal, because niceties are placed above truth.


Content information and Feeling information.

It's very exausting for NTJ's to package something nicely, but when the Feeling and the Content channel match then it creates Impact.

Since INTJ's are generally only tuned to the Content channel we make bad persuaders. The upside is it's far less distracting and easier to discern truth.

I think it bugs NTPs, too, because of Ti's desire for truth and accuracy, but we learn to pick our battles because of our Fe understanding of this.

It's a long and painful struggle for many of us, though. Especially if we grew up on the east coast where direct communication is the norm, then we move to the west coast where political favor is more important than competence, and where you can quickly lose political favor if you accidentally offend someone by being too direct in your communication without enough niceties.
 

Zarathustra

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You didn't answer my questions. :)

So, you think that insulting other people is going to help you/them get closer to the truth in a more effective manner?

Let's review what I said to CrescentFresh:

Zarathustra said:
:yim_rolling_on_the_

And this, this is just laughable.

I have an ESFJ mother, and my girlfriend's mother is an ESFJ.

You're trying to sell this bullshit to the wrong person.

It seems that every statement in there was directly attacking her position, not her.

And, frankly, yes, I believe that mocking and laughing at a stupid, ridiculous, false positions is a good way to throw them to the sewer pit of falseness where they belong.
 

SilkRoad

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And, frankly, yes, I believe that mocking and laughing at a stupid, ridiculous, false positions is a good way to throw them to the sewer pit of falseness where they belong.

Ok, just wanted to be sure that really was your approach.
 

Nicodemus

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Ok, just wanted to be sure that really was your approach.
The point is: he is not trying to persuade her of the truth. I am sure he has read 'How to Make Friends and Influence People' and knows how ineffective his method would be in that case. In this case, it was much less about helping her realize something than it was about revealing the truth for everyone to see and discrediting the misinformant.

People on the internet are often handled with less diplomacy because they are less important to the things that matter. I sometimes think that Zarathustra is overdoing it, but it is not my problem, and apparently it is not a problem for him either.
 

Viridian

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:huh:

I don't think you're right here (although I think you do have a little bit of truth in there).

Fi users aren't necessarily focused on bringing anything out in others -- they're focused on their own damn selves.

This might end up stirring up other peoples' Fi, but it doesn't mean that's really their primary aim (if it's even their aim at all).

You seem to be putting an Fe-oriented spin on what it is Fi-users do.

Er... Not exactly, methinks. Fi users can be quite other-centered, just like Ti users can be practical and need proof to believe in something. Carl Rogers is a great example of an other-oriented INFP, for instance.

Also, is it just me, or do you picture all Fe users as frumpy mannequins who do nothing but exchange meaningless pleasantries all day? Quite a few Fe users couldn't care less about whether or not they're being "improper". :laugh:
 

SilkRoad

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The point is: he is not trying to persuade her of the truth. I am sure he has read 'How to Make Friends and Influence People' and knows how ineffective his method would be in that case. In this case, it was much less about helping her realize something than it was about revealing the truth for everyone to see and discrediting the misinformant.

People on the internet are often handled with less diplomacy because they are less important to the things that matter. I sometimes think that Zarathustra is overdoing it, but it is not my problem, and apparently it is not a problem for him either.

Are you sure it's not about making himself feel superior? I ask merely for information.

I mean, it may at least be worth noting that this is very much how this approach comes across.
 

Nicodemus

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Are you sure it's not about making himself feel superior? I ask merely for information.

I mean, it may at least be worth noting that this is very much how this approach comes across.
It may play a role, it often does when people correct other people, but I doubt it is the main force.
 

SilkRoad

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It may play a role, it often does when people correct other people, but I doubt it is the main force.

Would it make any difference if INTJs (generalizing here) considered that maybe this approach puts people's back up and is thus counter-productive as far as having meaningful dialogue and getting closer to the truth?

I think to me (among other things) it's just a bit too close to sort of playground "you're a poo-poo head, so that makes me right and you wrong."
 

Zarathustra

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The point is: he is not trying to persuade her of the truth. I am sure he has read 'How to Make Friends and Influence People' and knows how ineffective his method would be in that case. In this case, it was much less about helping her realize something than it was about revealing the truth for everyone to see and discrediting the misinformant.

People on the internet are often handled with less diplomacy because they are less important to the things that matter. I sometimes think that Zarathustra is overdoing it, but it is not my problem, and apparently it is not a problem for him either.

This is all very accurate.

I do indeed own that book.

I do, though, still want the person whose position I'm attacking to recognize the falsity of what they're saying, though.

Er... Not exactly, methinks. Fi users can be quite other-centered, just like Ti users can be practical and need proof to believe in something. Carl Rogers is a great example of an other-oriented INFP, for instance.

Good points.

There is an interesting question here that I'm never quite certain how to resolve...

What exactly is happening when Fi (or more generally, an internal source [an introverted function]) turns outward. Is it still the introverted function, or is it being turned outward via an extroverted function?

Also, is it just me, or do you picture all Fe users as frumpy mannequins who do nothing but exchange meaningless pleasantries all day? Quite a few Fe users couldn't care less about whether or not they're being "improper". :laugh:

:laugh:

No, that's not my picture of all Fe-users.

In fact, I just repped redcheerio about how NTPs (and the same even holds true for some [although, fewer] NFJs, from my experience) can manifest their Fe in highly anti-social ways. I believe Anti-social Personality Disorder is most highly correlated with ENTPs, in fact. But, yeah, that's a whole nother problem I have with Fe (I have an ESTP neighbor who vacillates between this shallow group moralizing and totally disgusting anti-social behavior -- he will literally flip it on and off and back to on within one conversation, like the flip of a switch).
 

Nicodemus

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Would it make any difference if INTJs (generalizing here) considered that maybe this approach puts people's back up and is thus counter-productive as far as having meaningful dialogue and getting closer to the truth?

I think to me (among other things) it's just a bit too close to sort of playground "you're a poo-poo head, so that makes me right and you wrong."
That is what my initial post meant to convey: meaningful dialogue is sometimes neither end nor means.
 

Zarathustra

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Would it make any difference if INTJs (generalizing here) considered that maybe this approach puts people's back up and is thus counter-productive as far as having meaningful dialogue and getting closer to the truth?

Yes, which is why, as Nicodemus pointed to in an earlier post, in real life, when things have real consequences, we don't use the same exact same approach as we would on an internet forum.

We have to sacrifice our authenticity every single day to play by your Fe rules.

It's kind of refreshing to let go of the bullshit and niceties when you're on here.

On here, you can just say it how it really is.

I think to me (among other things) it's just a bit too close to sort of playground "you're a poo-poo head, so that makes me right and you wrong."

Have you considered that this is perhaps because you suck at Te?

Your statement here seems to make absolutely no mention of the truth or falsity of either position.
 
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