Fe Fakeness

[Glycerine]

I'm beginning to have an idea though of why the principles of Fe are so difficult to put into words. Either it's because as logic they look, well, like an explosion at a Barbie factory or (same thing really) because they genuinely do lose their motive power when objectified. They are supposed to be represented by passions on display, smiles and frowns and Barbie parts. In words, they are without their vital substance? It's in action that they are real and compelling? Which is to say, constructive. Or at least, with constructions (and destructions) in mind.

Is that... true?



^ my favorite question for FJs. It's unsettling, but there often isn't an answer available when it gets asked as above. The question "does this description of the system and conditions of the world match what you experience?" doesn't seem to fly.

I am genuinely curious but can you clarify that? If I try to decipher it, I am probably going to misrepresent your perspective so I am not going to try.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think the bolded may be key. With most people, Fe is rather superficial. It is nice to be nice and to get along and not cause trouble. Fi in the same situation isn't so much superficial as avoidant. In particular, Fi-doms tend to avoid, while Fi-aux tends to bring up Te to deal with unpleasant situations.

While those may be broad tendencies, I think the enneagram makes nice distinctions between the different flavors of each Fe and Fi dom and aux. For example, "be nice, go along to get along" seems more 9 flavored than type flavored for me. Then, add type back in, and you see a unique expression of each play out.

At times, the "niceness shield" can backfire, and be misread as NFPs as insincere.

Sometimes that "niceness" shield is sincere, and I respect when it is, but other times it is not. I get a sense of this on a sliding scale. It's not an "on or off" thing.

I do try to give others the benefit of the doubt though, of course, even when I am suspect.

I'm also NOT ruling out the possibility that Fe judgments will suit a person preferring Fi, but I do note that if one naturally orients outward for the signs and signals and actual location of feeling, then you're in a better position to feel positive reward in accommodating the forms and paths.

Yes, I like this. Personally, I don't especially feel rewarded accommodating the Fe rules, yet I often do (accommodate them) ... I have to look for other areas to find some gratification for my behaviour and for utilizing social grease. Performing a rote ritual of "going along to get along" can feel perfunctory and fake to me, so I generally look to more universal values to feel satisfied in their usage, that I am doing the "right" thing for that situation.

And I'm thinking what we seem to be trolling calling fakeness is most apparent in those times when Fe people are overriding the feelings of the moment, the better to build these larger paths and forms.

Yes, I agree there too - Fe people override their true feelings and they gain satisfaction from this somehow - Fi people override them too, but I imagine seldom feel satisfied in doing so. It feels more like a betrayal of them, a submerging of them, not permitting their existence. To sense someone feeling one way and acting another is not disingenuous in and of itself though ... there are signs of when this is inappropriate to Fi and I don't have time right now to flesh that thought out.

There are no principles of Fi. As a judgment system it varies from person to person. What is universal however would be its nature as an introverted judgement system. Just like... Ti.

Us Fi doms like to think there is a universal moral, value-based construct, though. Fi doms, please disagree if I am overstepping my purview here.

Thanks for not coming out and supporting me TP's... thanks a lot. Let these Fi fools roll all over me.... *dejected*

I really do believe that TP/FJ is the way of the future and that TJ/FP represents a useless vestige of our past....

How are you today? So, you're not here to win friends and influence people, then?

I was going to respond to your posts ... but I have changed my mind, because your actions here seem bereft of grace and humility.

I need to see evidence that you're not actually a troll, so can you express yourself here without vilifying 50% of the cognitive functions present?

 

[Glycerine]

Thanks for not coming out and supporting me TP's... thanks a lot. Let these Fi fools roll all over me.... *dejected*

I really do believe that TP/FJ is the way of the future and that TJ/FP represents a useless vestige of our past....

The TPs don't wanna be dragged into this futile exercise in hyperintellectualism at it's very finest. I find the thread interesting/entertaining rather than anything educational....

Why TP/FJ and not FP/TJ? I am very curious.

 

[chris1207]

I'm beginning to have an idea though of why the principles of Fe are so difficult to put into words. Either it's because as logic they look, well, like an explosion at a Barbie factory or (same thing really) because they genuinely do lose their motive power when objectified. They are supposed to be represented by passions on display, smiles and frowns and Barbie parts. In words, they are without their vital substance? It's in action that they are real and compelling? Which is to say, constructive. Or at least, with constructions (and destructions) in mind.

Is that... true?



^ my favorite question for FJs. It's unsettling, but there often isn't an answer available when it gets asked as above. The question "does this description of the system and conditions of the world match what you experience?" doesn't seem to fly.

100% True. On here, we have but text. No body language, no paralanguage. Why should I waste my time if my words won't have the impact that I intended. According to one study, actual words (i.e. those which we write down) only represent 7% of the actual meaning in speech. The other 93% consists of body movement, changes in pitch, manner, and articulation.

I would say that that is an excellent explanation for the fact that this forum is often bereft of ENFJ's. That and ENTJ's don't come because they don't understand or appreciate the functional utility of self-actualization...

 

[chris1207]

The TPs don't wanna be dragged into this futile exercise in hyperintellectualism at it's very finest. I find the thread interesting/entertaining rather than anything educational....

Why TP/FJ and not FP/TJ? I am very curious.

We've achieved safety for the most part. That's what muslim radicalists hate. Now that we are safe we need to achieve common ground amongst the disparate peoples (i.e. people of different races, ethnicities, etc). In addition, we now need to use Ti to further ourselves technologically, which we've been doing since the end of WWII. Not only that but Fe and Ti go hand-in-hand. It's time to unite the world but first we need to unite ourselves and move away from our own self-segregration and the utilization of tolerance as a means to facilitate cooperation.

Unfortunately, many people are too bound to their religions...

 

[chris1207]

How are you today? So, you're not here to win friends and influence people, then?

I was going to respond to your posts ... but I have changed my mind, because your actions here seem bereft of grace and humility.

I need to see evidence that you're not actually a troll, so can you express yourself here without vilifying 50% of the cognitive functions present?

Lol. My actions here were intentional. I wanted to show you all a perspective analogous to ignorance and hubris often associated with people who have Fi but are too immature to properly wield it in a greater context.

I wasn't going to justify Ti to you all, which is the route many take... unsuccessfully. Instead, you all play heads so I played tails.

P.S. Never felt better and more enlightened in my entire life. I may draw up a guide to self-actualization for ENFJ's here... I'm 27 btw.

 

[Glycerine]

We've achieved safety for the most part. That's what muslim radicalists hate. Now that we are safe we need to achieve common ground amongst the disparate peoples (i.e. people of different races, ethnicities, etc). In addition, we now need to use Ti to further ourselves technologically, which we've been doing since the end of WWII. Not only that but Fe and Ti go hand-in-hand. It's time to unite the world but first we need to unite ourselves and move away from our own self-segregration and the utilization of tolerance as a means to facilitate cooperation.

Unfortunately, many people are too bound to their religions...

This really doesn't have much to do with Fe vs. Fi. I would say that I have a good amount of Fe-Ti usage. Ti from my Fe influenced perspective is about picking apart logical inconsistencies and critically analyzing things to figure out the most accurate perception/answer one come up with using a multitude of many different sources/perspectives. So, it's hard for me to comprehend how this is Ti or Fe at work. If we wanted to hyperintellectualize this, we could say that your vision/beliefs may be the product of the use of Ti warped with Fe ideals.

 

[uumlau]

Lol. My actions here were intentional. I wanted to show you all a perspective analogous to ignorance and hubris often associated with people who have Fi but are too immature to properly wield it in a greater context.

I wasn't going to justify Ti to you all, which is the route many take... unsuccessfully. Instead, you all play heads so I played tails.

P.S. Never felt better and more enlightened in my entire life. I may draw up a guide to self-actualization for ENFJ's here... I'm 27 btw.

In other words, you were trying to embody the example suggested by the thread title?

 

[Seymour]

One thing I've been mulling over is "I'm right" first assumption of Je. One one level, it makes perfect sense. Generally the Fe or Te rules/constructs are time proven and have shown utility in the real world. Therefore, they are "right" on a practical, working level and, furthermore, it's apparent that most people "agree" since those are the real world structures.

In a situation where those constructs are not working, the obvious "rightness" of those constructs seems to assume the failure is caused by personal shortcomings, since that's generally the most variable part of the systems most of us interact with. So, the first assumption is that if a particular construct isn't working, the person for whom it is not working is doing it wrong, is not sufficiently skilled/motivated or is trying to undermine the system in some way.

With Ji, the assumption is that the rules are broken, but the situation is "correct," "true," or "real" on some level that has to be dealt with. So for Ti that often means that the general rule was created by someone who didn't know all the detailed specifics of the given situation, or deemed such a situation rare or unimportant. For Fi it means that the social rule or expectation requires acting against one's personal principles or requires manufacturing emotion or intent when none exists.

So, I think that's why I we sometimes see FJs and TJs tend to ascribe things to personal failings first (the rule is right but the person is wrong). Conversely, I think TPs often ascribe intentional stupidity/blindness to those who create or maintain the system (since clearly the shortcomings of the system are blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) and FPs ascribe things to bad intent (since clearly no one could genuinely expect others to against their personal values/state or place so little emphasis on the value of the individual).

I do think PB makes a good point about Fi-dom vs Fi-aux. I don't see conflict avoidance as being unique to type 9. It seems like all of the "withdrawing" types (4-5-9) may seek to avoid conflict to some degree, since conflict demands engagement (at least in the near term) and the expenditure of energy externally.

Of course, there are other strategies for keeping oneself disengaged, including dismissing or rebuffing others in a less agreeable manner (which a 5 or 4 might use but a 9 would be unlikely to).

 

[PeaceBaby]

Lol. My actions here were intentional. I wanted to show you all a perspective analogous to ignorance and hubris often associated with people who have Fi but are too immature to properly wield it in a greater context.

Aside from the obvious irony, do you think you succeeded and how?

P.S. Never felt better and more enlightened in my entire life. I may draw up a guide to self-actualization for ENFJ's here... I'm 27 btw.

What exactly are you feeling enlightened about? Frankly, I am puzzled.

In other words, you were trying to embody the example suggested by the thread title?

It seems so ... but I am trying to draw parallels and having trouble overlaying them. I can see some ... ? Mostly dissing on the NTJ's I guess lol. One in particular.

One thing I've been mulling over is "I'm right" first assumption of Je. One one level, it makes perfect sense. Generally the Fe or Te rules/constructs are time proven and have shown utility in the real world. Therefore, they are "right" on a practical, working level and, furthermore, it's apparent that most people "agree" since those are the real world structures.

In a situation where those constructs are not working, the obvious "rightness" of those constructs seems to assume the failure is caused by personal shortcomings, since that's generally the most variable part of the systems most of us interact with. So, the first assumption is that if a particular construct isn't working, the person for whom it is not working is doing it wrong, is not sufficiently skilled/motivated or is trying to undermine the system in some way.

With Ji, the assumption is that the rules are broken, but the situation is "correct," "true," or "real" on some level that has to be dealt with. So for Ti that often means that the general rule was created by someone who didn't know all the detailed specifics of the given situation, or deemed such a situation rare or unimportant. For Fi it means that the social rule or expectation requires acting against one's personal principles or requires manufacturing emotion or intent when none exists.

So, I think that's why I we sometimes see FJs and TJs tend to ascribe things to personal failings first (the rule is right but the person is wrong). Conversely, I think TPs often ascribe intentional stupidity/blindness to those who create or maintain the system (since clearly the shortcomings of the system are blindingly obvious to anyone with half a brain) and FPs ascribe things to bad intent (since clearly no one could genuinely expect others to against their personal values/state or place so little emphasis on the value of the individual).

I love how you expanded on my "Te / Fe is always right" lazy shorthand. So, SO well said.

I do think PB makes a good point about Fi-dom vs Fi-aux. I don't see conflict avoidance as being unique to type 9. It seems like all of the "withdrawing" types (4-5-9) may seek to avoid conflict to some degree, since conflict demands engagement (at least in the near term) and the expenditure of energy externally.

Of course, there are other strategies for keeping oneself disengaged, including dismissing or rebuffing others in a less agreeable manner (which a 5 or 4 might use but a 9 would be unlikely to).

Yes, I wrote that post quickly and didn't expand on the varieties of conflict-avoidance. I do really like how typology and enneagram can partner so well. Again, I am pressed for time to expand the thoughts.

 

[Glycerine]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]. I completely agree with your points about the J "I am right" mentality. At least from my experience, it gets a lot worse when there is stress involved because loose ends can feel like the devil when there was already set plans or the constructs that we have mulled over. It can be a big pain in the butt having to unravel the whole construct to incorporate new pieces of information if one's already tenatively figured it out.

 

[Seymour]

I hope it's also clear that in some ways Je is more flexible than Ji, and that I'm not just ragging on Je in general While the scope of Ji's "I'm right" tends more towards the personal and/or specific, it can be very difficult to modify one it's fixed (with Fi being even harder to convince than Ti). I'm occasionally shocked at how Je folks can sound very certain about something, but then modify their opinion appropriately as new data or arguments come in. This seems especially true of EJs, who can state judgments as a kind of exploration of a topic rather than as the final say.

 

[Glycerine]

I agree with you there actually. I would say Je is much slower to incorporate new information but when it finally opens up, it's all ears. Ji seems to be really open during the brainstorming stage but once they have made up their mind, it can be a difficult feat to convince them (or at least have them listen) of a different perspective. lol In this instance, I consider myself much more adaptable than the average P. lol I am not denying that I can be stubborn ass sometimes. lol This is usually my main source of contention between Fi users and I.... none of this collectivism vs. individualism crap.

 

[Xenon]

I hope it's also clear that in some ways Je is more flexible than Ji, and that I'm not just ragging on Je in general While the scope of Ji's "I'm right" tends more towards the personal and/or specific, it can be very difficult to modify one it's fixed (with Fi being even harder to convince than Ti). I'm occasionally shocked at how Je folks can sound very certain about something, but then modify their opinion appropriately as new data or arguments come in. This seems especially true of EJs, who can state judgments as a kind of exploration of a topic rather than as the final say.

Good posts. Yeah, I get taken by surprise by the bolded as well...I hear the certainty in an ExxJ's voice and I mistakenly assume they're in a similar place I'd have to be to speak with such certainty, when often they're nowhere near it.

Ji seems to be really open during the brainstorming stage but once they have made up their mind, it can be a difficult feat to convince them (or at least have them listen) of a different perspective.

Yup, this is the impression I have of myself too. I think the fact that I do tend to take my time and explore an idea before reaching a conclusion makes me more likely to become irritated or dismissive when people argue against them. Especially when they trot out arguments I've already considered and picked apart and fully expect me to have never thought about them before, or when they otherwise seem to assume my thought process was far simpler than it really was. When I start to feel weirdly defensive in an argument for no obvious reason, it's most often related to this.

 

[Kalach]

Us Fi doms like to think there is a universal moral, value-based construct, though.

Yah, but that's an interaction with Te. The mindset goes, "each person feels for himself, and while this leaves the world to be organised impersonally as if we are all strictly alone in our feelings, still, impersonally speaking, there will and must be commonalities--universals--present in each person, waiting to be discovered and--tada!--impersonally checked to determine their real existence." So it's not quite right to speak of Fi principles. There are certainly some universals that can be spoken of, but there's still an important gap between those universals and the people who instantiate them. There's a sense though in which that gap is logically required. The gap is an expression of the personalisation that drives the existence of the universal. If the value system were not personal--felt by the person, alone--then the value could never hope to attain universal applicability.

OH MY GOD! OMGOMGOMG! THE Fe PEOPLE WORK IT IN REVERSE! THEY WORK FROM UNIVERSAL TO PERSONAL!

 

[Kalach]

I am genuinely curious but can you clarify that?

Maybe. It's a thought something along the lines of this: where an Fe person is required to state the organisation of the world they work with, that organisation ceases to have substance. It, in effect, becomes mere Te and loses its reason to be.

Extroverted Thinking, unlike introverted thinking, has really only one principle: "X, because the world is X." This allows, even forces, Te (as it appears in a person) to be about mechanism, development, construction... moving stuff of the world. Extroverted Feeling is perhaps the same. All feeling is stipulated. And the stipulations depend crucially upon the world as it is. Without the world being thus and so, feeling this or that is without meaning. So, in some sense, the one and only principle of Fe is "well, what's going on with YOU?"


/temporary stipulation

 

[PeaceBaby]

Yah, but that's an interaction with Te. The mindset goes, "each person feels for himself, and while this leaves the world to be organised impersonally as if we are all strictly alone in our feelings, still, impersonally speaking, there will and must be commonalities--universals--present in each person, waiting to be discovered and--tada!--impersonally checked to determine their real existence." So it's not quite right to speak of Fi principles. There are certainly some universals that can be spoken of, but there's still an important gap between those universals and the people who instantiate them. There's a sense though in which that gap is logically required. The gap is an expression of the personalisation that drives the existence of the universal. If the value system were not personal--felt by the person, alone--then the value could never hope to attain universal applicability.

OH MY GOD! OMGOMGOMG! THE Fe PEOPLE WORK IT IN REVERSE! THEY WORK FROM UNIVERSAL TO PERSONAL!

@bold: Do you think this feels right for you because your Te filter is higher up in the food chain? Subjectively, I don't feel like you are describing how I experience this. It feels off for me.


Extra question: Are you being sarcastic with your OMG pronouncement? Because, this is not something I think is a revelation for you personally.

 

[Kalach]

@bold: Do you think this feels right for you because your Te filter is higher up in the food chain? Subjectively, I don't feel like you are describing how I experience this. It feels off for me.

I think Fi and Te can exist in isolation in the sense that at any given time a person can consciously interact with very probably literally only one of their, but not both of their, subject matters. But I think neither judgment system can exist without the other. The judgments of either one of the systems literally can not be formed if there is no content from the other system present. (And it doesn't need to be conscious content either. In fact, it probably won't be conscious content.)

Extra question: Are you being sarcastic with your OMG pronouncement? Because, this is not something I think is a revelation for you personally.

[ninja edit, no Se fail here, folks, move along]

It's not sarcastic, mostly. It's a revelation. It's particularly revelatory because of this idea of "gap". Fi, so it would seem to me, requires the gap between the person and the universal for the universal to exist at all, but Fe works straight form the universal, and I guess requires a gap as well... IT REQUIRES A FAKENESS! That's stunning, in a way. It means that while Fe can provide--without effort!--what Fi seeks, a universal, still Fi will require that step away. And likewise, though Fi can provide personalisation of universal requirements, still Fe will require that step away from the purely individually "personal"....

Thus, "OMG".

 

[Ginkgo]

Us Fi doms like to think there is a universal moral, value-based construct, though. Fi doms, please disagree if I am overstepping my purview here.

Can you please explain exactly what you mean?

 

[PeaceBaby]

It means that while Fe can provide--without effort!--what Fi seeks, a universal, still Fi will require that step away. And likewise, though Fi can provide personalisation of universal requirements, still Fe will require that step away from the purely individually "personal"....

How would you define this Fe universal? Do you see it as complete or partial?