What MBTI type was Carl Jung

[highlander]

Or the other option is INTJ

 

[Forever_Jung]

Carl Gustav Jung wrote The Red Book also known as Liber Novus between 1914 and 1930. And in order to preserve Carl Jung's reputation as New Age guru, The Red Book was kept in a secret locked safe and only published in 2009.

The devotees of the guru Jung have been trying to preserve his reputation in the face of -

1. his sexual abuse of female patients

2. his father fixation on the Fuhrer

3. Jung organised the Deutsche Allgemeine Ärztliche Gesellschaft für Psychotherapie which took its orders from Hermann Goering, who was a Nazi military leader, Commander of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia, and Hitler's designated successor. Hermann Goering was found guilty of conspiracy to wage war, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity. No mitigating circumstances were found. But Carl Jung got off scot-free.

4. In his publication the Zentralblatt für Psychotherapie Carl Jung endorsed Nazi positions and and recommended Mein Kampf as a reference manual for German psychotherapists.

5. And the secret Red Book reveals the psychosis of Carl Gustav Jung.

But none of this matters to the devotees of Carl Gustav Jung because they have no intellecual or moral integrity.

As usual, your facts are iffy, even if your analysis is mostly accurate. The Nazi accusations are especially overblown. I'd say what Jung's failings during the Nazi regime was more of a complicity than support. I know that either way his behaviour was morally unacceptable, but at least get it right. His publication continued to acknowledge the works of Jewish psychiatrists while the rest of the country did not. He also went on record in 1934 to say he did not want to be associated with Nazism and regretted his publication's previous endorsement. He was more concerned with legitimizing psychology than he was with the growing persecution of Jewish people.

As the Nazi movement intensified in the late 30's, he did resign his from his position as President of the General Medical Society for Psychotherapy rather than go along with the Nazification. Also, In his 1936 essay "Wotan", Jung described the influence of Hitler on Germany as "one man who is obviously 'possessed' has infected a whole nation to such an extent that everything is set in motion and has started rolling on its course towards perdition. So I wouldn't say he was terribly enamoured with Hitler at that point.

Jung was guilty of the old Edmund Burke thing: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Did he fail morally during the rise of Nazism? Absolutely. Was he a Hitler devotee? No.

Anyway, I'm not interested in Jung's theories because I think he has integrity. I just like to study ideas that are useful to me, and many of Jung's ideas have helped me understand the world. His ideas, like the man, are far from infallible, but they're still very relevant to this day. There are many people who contributed to science and philosophy and the arts, yet were morally suspect and psychologically unhinged (WB Yeats was a heaping helping of both, for example), but I still enjoy their work for whatever it's worth.

Still, I think it's important to debunk Jung's mystique, so I applaud your tireless efforts on that front.

Sorry about the off-topic stuff. I tend to accept Jung's self-assessment as an Introverted thinker, but beyond that it gets fuzzy for me.

 

[Mal12345]

As usual, your facts are iffy, even if your analysis is mostly accurate. The Nazi accusations are especially overblown. I'd say what Jung's failings during the Nazi regime was more of a complicity than support. I know that either way his behaviour was morally unacceptable, but at least get it right. His publication continued to acknowledge the works of Jewish psychiatrists while the rest of the country did not. He also went on record in 1934 to say he did not want to be associated with Nazism and regretted his publication's previous endorsement. He was more concerned with legitimizing psychology than he was with the growing persecution of Jewish people.

As the Nazi movement intensified in the late 30's, he did resign his from his position as President of the General Medical Society for Psychotherapy rather than go along with the Nazification. Also, In his 1936 essay "Wotan", Jung described the influence of Hitler on Germany as "one man who is obviously 'possessed' has infected a whole nation to such an extent that everything is set in motion and has started rolling on its course towards perdition. So I wouldn't say he was terribly enamoured with Hitler at that point.

Jung was guilty of the old Edmund Burke thing: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Did he fail morally during the rise of Nazism? Absolutely. Was he a Hitler devotee? No.

Anyway, I'm not interested in Jung's theories because I think he has integrity. I just like to study ideas that are useful to me, and many of Jung's ideas have helped me understand the world. His ideas, like the man, are far from infallible, but they're still very relevant to this day. There are many people who contributed to science and philosophy and the arts, yet were morally suspect and psychologically unhinged (WB Yeats was a heaping helping of both, for example), but I still enjoy their work for whatever it's worth.

Still, I think it's important to debunk Jung's mystique, so I applaud your tireless efforts on that front.

Sorry about the off-topic stuff. I tend to accept Jung's self-assessment as an Introverted thinker, but beyond that it gets fuzzy for me.

NiTi, with repressed Fe-auxiliary.

 

[Franz]

IIRC Jung always said that he was Ti, at least I read that on a website. So don't you think his self-typing was right?

 

[INTP]

IIRC Jung always said that he was Ti, at least I read that on a website.

yes, also i posted this 2 pages ago:

I never seen anything about him being TiNiSeFe, thats not even how he viewed function stacks in psychological types.. He said that dom function in introverted is I types and rest are E. Also i dont understand why you would say that this translates as INTJ, even less as INFJ. Seems more like wishful thinking in my eyes..

@ 3:20 his former patient who then became a close friend and one of the most famous jungian analysts says that he is thinking intuitive type = TNSF = INTP in MBTI terms because jung typed himself as introvert. Also if what she says at first confuses between T or N dom, she says moments later that they both have inferior F, which clearly says T dom.

Also in one interview which i bet everyone has seen, he said that he is introvert and ranked his functions T N S F = INTP in MBTI terms.


/thread

 

[Paladin-X]

I read some of it and have been reading Jung quite a lot. What you said about Ne suddenly turning into Ni because of differentiation is some interpretation of your own.

Jung himself said that other than dom are in opposite attitude to dom, this is also what MBTI said in the beginning.

I cant read all your posts, but everywhere i see you saying that his aux is I function, i dont see any evidence for it, just you saying that its what you think he viewed himself as = what you said about it is not backed by any evidence, or even rationale, just what your Ni sees. To me as a rational type, it sounds something like "santa claus is real because he is real because i think he is real"..

This is from a post I made on another forum about Myers' interpretation of the auxiliary attitude:

NOTE: The quotes are from Jung in Psychological Types and the italicized indented comment is from Myers in Gifts Differing. Whole post..


Missed point

The relatively unconscious functions of feeling, intuition and sensation, which counterbalance introverted thinking, are inferior in quality and have a primitive, extraverted character. (1923, p. 489)

When the mechanism of extraversion predominates... the most highly differentiated function has a constantly extraverted application, while the inferior functions are found in the service of introversion. (1923, p. 426)

A more subtle kind of evidence lies in the "extraverted character" of the introvert's auxiliary process. For example, in a well-balanced ISTJ the observable auxiliary process, thinking can be seen to resemble the thinking of the extraverted thinker more than that of the introverted thinker. This point can be tested with any introvert by comparing the axuiliary process with Chapter 8, Figures 28-31, where the differences between extraverted and introverted thinking, extraverted and introverted feeling, etc., are shown.​

This argument is easily refuted in Jung's introduction to the Principal an Auxiliary Functions section of the book:

In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that these types occur at all frequently in such pure form in actual life. They are, as it were, only Galtonesque family portraits, which single out the common and therefore typical features, stressing them disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced.

Psychological Types, CW6, p666, pg 405

Given that Jung is stating here that he deliberately and disproportionately singled out the types so as to emphasize their specific characteristics, then the preceding two quotes Myers offered, taken from the "foregoing descriptions," are equally disproportionate and singled out.

Furthermore, looking at the quotes Myers' grabbed, and considering the other half of Jung's introduction to the Principal and Auxiliary:

Closer investigation shows with great regularity that, besides the most differentiated function, another, less differentiated function of secondary importance is invariably present in consciousness and exerts a co-determining influence.

One could logically surmise that if the functions of feeling, sensation, and intuition had an extraverted character due to their relative unconsciousness, then it would stand to reason that the conscious auxiliary function would share the same Introverted attitude as the conscious dominant Thinking function. It wouldn't make sense for the auxiliary function to have the opposite attitude if the whole reason for that attitude was that the function, in this example, is unconscious. This same logic can be applied to the second quote about the Extraverted type.

 

[INTP]

This is from a post I made on another forum about Myers' interpretation of the auxiliary attitude:

NOTE: The quotes are from Jung in Psychological Types and the italicized indented comment is from Myers in Gifts Differing. Whole post..


Missed point

​

A more subtle kind of evidence lies in the "extraverted character" of the introvert's auxiliary process. For example, in a well-balanced ISTJ the observable auxiliary process, thinking can be seen to resemble the thinking of the extraverted thinker more than that of the introverted thinker. This point can be tested with any introvert by comparing the axuiliary process with Chapter 8, Figures 28-31, where the differences between extraverted and introverted thinking, extraverted and introverted feeling, etc., are shown.​

This argument is easily refuted in Jung's introduction to the Principal an Auxiliary Functions section of the book:



Given that Jung is stating here that he deliberately and disproportionately singled out the types so as to emphasize their specific characteristics, then the preceding two quotes Myers offered, taken from the "foregoing descriptions," are equally disproportionate and singled out.

Furthermore, looking at the quotes Myers' grabbed, and considering the other half of Jung's introduction to the Principal and Auxiliary:



One could logically surmise that if the functions of feeling, sensation, and intuition had an extraverted character due to their relative unconsciousness, then it would stand to reason that the conscious auxiliary function would share the same Introverted attitude as the conscious dominant Thinking function. It wouldn't make sense for the auxiliary function to have the opposite attitude if the whole reason for that attitude was that the function, in this example, is unconscious. This same logic can be applied to the second quote about the Extraverted type.

"We then discover that no individual is simply introverted or extraverted, but that he is so in one of his functions." -psychological types p.903 page 519 appendix 4 papers on psychological typology, the 1923 paper, these papers arent in older versions of the book.

I can see that there is no concrete words where jung says that dfferentiated functions take the I/E of dominant function, but this quote is clearly against it..

 

[Mole]

When we ask, what mbti type was Carl Jung, we are asking not a moral question but an amoral question.

Yes, mbti is amoral.

And interestingly amorality is the hallmark of narcissism.

The narcissist has no interest in the moral relations between people, but the narcissist is only interested in how to manipulate others. So the narcissists is by inclination and practice amoral.

Amorality is of course socially ugly, so the narcissist joins with other narcissists so their moral ugliness won't be noticed.

This is why mbti is the cult of narcissists.

 

[reckful]

When we ask, what mbti type was Carl Jung, we are asking not a moral question but an amoral question.

Yes, mbti is amoral.

And interestingly amorality is the hallmark of narcissism.

The narcissist has no interest in the moral relations between people, but the narcissist is only interested in how to manipulate others. So the narcissists is by inclination and practice amoral.

Amorality is of course socially ugly, so the narcissist joins with other narcissists so their moral ugliness won't be noticed.

This is why mbti is the cult of narcissists.

So, reading between the lines, are you suggesting you think Jung was an INTP?

 

[uumlau]

And interestingly amorality is the hallmark of narcissism.

The theory of gravity is amoral: it is true (mostly) regardless of one's morality. Therefore astrophysicists are narcissists?

 

[Mole]

The theory of gravity is amoral: it is true (mostly) regardless of one's morality. Therefore astrophysicists are narcissists?

Morality deals with the relationship between persons. Neither gravity nor astrophysicists have much bearing on the relationship between persons.

However mbti purports to improve relationships between persons, while at the same time being amoral as gravity.

So we can't have it both ways. We can't improve our relationships with persons by following an amoral cult.

Of course the amorality of mbti appeals to narcissists and acts as a cover for their manipulation of persons.

 

[Mole]

So, reading between the lines, are you suggesting you think Jung was an INTP?

Reading between the lines is always interesting, but in this case I think there are more important things about Carl Jung than his imaginary personality.

 

[uumlau]

Morality deals with the relationship between persons. Neither gravity nor astrophysicists have much bearing on the relationship between persons.

However mbti purports to improve relationships between persons, while at the same time being amoral as gravity.

So we can't have it both ways. We can't improve our relationships with persons by following an amoral cult.

Of course the amorality of mbti appeals to narcissists and acts as a cover for their manipulation of persons.

OK, so let's consider psychology. Is psychology moral, immoral or amoral? Does it appeal to narcissists, too?

 

[Mole]

OK, so let's consider psychology. Is psychology moral, immoral or amoral? Does it appeal to narcissists, too?

The first rule of psychology is do no harm.

Do no harm is a moral injunction.

And it is a moral injunction about relations between persons.

Narcissism has very little interest in moral relations between persons. It is mainly interested in how to successfully manipulate persons.

However narcissists need a cover for their immorality, and that cover is the amoral mbti.

 

[uumlau]

The first rule of psychology is do no harm.

Do no harm is a moral injunction.

And it is a moral injunction about relations between persons.

Narcissism has very little interest in moral relations between persons. It is mainly interested in how to successfully manipulate persons.

However narcissists need a cover for their immorality, and that cover is the amoral mbti.

Ah, OK. I just wanted to be sure that you get to make up rules to justify your assertions. Thanks!

 

[Paladin-X]

"We then discover that no individual is simply introverted or extraverted, but that he is so in one of his functions." -psychological types p.903 page 519 appendix 4 papers on psychological typology, the 1923 paper, these papers arent in older versions of the book.

I can see that there is no concrete words where jung says that dfferentiated functions take the I/E of dominant function, but this quote is clearly against it..

The first few times I read that quote I interpreted as people are not simply introverts or extraverts, but flavors of. Kind of like ice cream is not just ice cream but vanillla ice cream, chocolate ice cream, etc. It is only after reading it again more literally did I notice that you could interpret the quote as saying that an individual is literally introverted or extraverted in only the one function. I'm not so certain of that interpretation.

A few paragraphs later (p908)--"Apart from the qualities I have mentioned, the undeveloped functions possess the further peculiarity that, when the conscious attitude is introverted, they are extraverted and vice versa."--again suggests that if you were to develop/differentiate the auxiliary into the conscious attitude, it would have an introverted character if the conscious attitude is introverted, since the undeveloped functions in the unconscious attitude have an extraverted character.

 

[uumlau]

I would read that as "Everyone is both introverted and extroverted. The flavor of the introversion/extroversion depends on the function." The overall tendency of introversion extroversion, therefore, would depend on which function is dominant.

 

[Mole]

A few paragraphs later (p908)--"Apart from the qualities I have mentioned, the undeveloped functions possess the further peculiarity that, when the conscious attitude is introverted, they are extraverted and vice versa."--again suggests that if you were to develop/differentiate the auxiliary into the conscious attitude, it would have an introverted character if the conscious attitude is introverted, since the undeveloped functions in the unconscious attitude have an extraverted character.

Why does this sound like jargon?

 

[Paladin-X]

Why does this sound like jargon?

Aren't all words and terms until you understand their meaning?

 

[Mole]

Aren't all words and terms until you understand their meaning?

The purpose of jargon is to conceal meaning.