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Is Personality Page Crap?

Eric B

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If Marmie is an ISFP, then it's not that she is more E but that she is more S.
By saying I thought she was more "E"; I wasn't referring to the Se of ISFP (or the other stuff I was referring to, like pragmatism), but rather simply being a dominant extravert.
This, however, is how she scored on the Fudjack-Dinkelaker Functional Preferences Instrument on 4-24-2011 -
N = 20
S = 1
F = 7
T = 8

In other words, the preference order is N-T-F-S. Intuition was the leading and by far most outstanding score on Marmie's test result.

Marmie agreed with this for the most part, stating only that the F-T difference was off by one letter, hinting that she really prefers F over T, and implying that N belongs at the top in the order of preference.

Let's assume that she does prefer F over T. This gives a preference order of N-F-T-S. So if she is an introvert, that gives NiFe, or iNfj (Ni with j-closure), as one possibility, but it also allows iNfp as another possibility. The latter is an Ni with p-non-closure, which is not allowed for by the MBTI naming convention for determining type.

So yes, Personality Page is crap insofar as the MBTI is a crappy theory based on circular reasoning and fallacy-riddled assumptions.
I had forgotten about this, but this was one of the big evidences for ENFP (NeFiTeSi). She may have scored close on T/F, but that IIRC we had determined was likely a strong tertiary.
 

Mal12345

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By saying I thought she was more "E"; I wasn't referring to the Se of ISFP (or the other stuff I was referring to, like pragmatism), but rather simply being a dominant extravert. I had forgotten about this, but this was one of the big evidences for ENFP (NeFiTeSi). She may have scored close on T/F, but that IIRC we had determined was likely a strong tertiary.

It is difficult to believe that someone could accidentally score a 20 on that test on any function even if the test is defective in some way. But most pinpoint the scale for F, and sometimes the S, as problematic. I agree that tertiaries cause some hang-ups with accurate test results.

How could a person not know if they are extraverted or introverted? This is one of the most well-established psychological categories in the known universe. Ambiverts don't exist in the MBTI sphere, and Jung had no place for an attitude function which was directed neither here nor there. So Marmie must have some kind of bipolar issue going on.
 

Thalassa

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] I score so high on the PTypes hedonist temperament that it's no joke, mang. I told you in another thread that I had this same score a long time ago before I understood what it meant, and just assumed it meant I was an embarrassingly impulsive, selfish person. I also relate to the Keirsey SP temperament. I have given evidence for why I believe I show a consistent pattern of being an introvert, except for my ability to express myself, especially in writing, and especially as a grown woman (not so much as a child or teenager, though I could be quite talkative around family and close friends). I am downright reclusive. Someone JUST TODAY marvelled at how silently I walk and how he felt that I "snuck up on him" like "where did you come from?" Same thing happened about a week ago with a woman at another location "oh my gosh you're quiet you even walk quietly." I even try to shut doors quietly unless I'm angry. The guy today said he's going to start calling me James Bond and asked me if I was a spy. If you knew how much this was intensified with social passivity and anxiety between the ages of 6-14, you would understand what I'm attempting to communicate.

My exes dad also called me "this quiet little angel who acts like the devil when she's mad."

Another thing is this new thing Seymour posted with the neurological types...and how I clearly picked the exact sections of the brain most frequently used by Fi doms rather than Se or Ne doms.
 

Octarine

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At what point do we accept that these type descriptions and models lack the specificity to fully describe real people?
We need to fill in the blanks ourselves and that means accepting some contradictions.
 

Eric B

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It is difficult to believe that someone could accidentally score a 20 on that test on any function even if the test is defective in some way. But most pinpoint the scale for F, and sometimes the S, as problematic. I agree that tertiaries cause some hang-ups with accurate test results.

How could a person not know if they are extraverted or introverted? This is one of the most well-established psychological categories in the known universe. Ambiverts don't exist in the MBTI sphere, and Jung had no place for an attitude function which was directed neither here nor there. So Marmie must have some kind of bipolar issue going on.
But I/E is also the "least important" (as Keirsey even said), from a functional perspective, as it only tells you which function is dominant (in addition to Keirsey's theory, which doesn't even use the functions).
A lot of times, people have difficulty telling which is dominant or auxiliary. So she knows she prefers Fi, but it's a matter of whether that's dominant or auxiliary, and whether the perception function is Se or Ne.

The discussion moves back and forth between behavior and functions and test results.

What I see is that the system I discuss, which does include ambiversion, is what explains it. She's basically inbetween temperaments in both Inclusion (affecting E/I) and Control (affecting S/N), and there have been other people with similar effects in one system who have the same results in the other.

Just that to me, her hehavior online (which is all I know of) resembles ENFP's more. (Remember Little Linguist?)
 

gromit

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At what point do we accept that these type descriptions and models lack the specificity to fully describe real people?
We need to fill in the blanks ourselves and that means accepting some contradictions.

Yes it's true Catbert.
 

Walking Tourist

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That was the quality of isfp that convinced me that i am an esfp.
I don't like conflict but I am too expressive to be considered "passive."

honestly, you don't seem like an isfp to me. most of the ones i know would probably relate to that, they're all pretty passive and non-confrontational. that doesn't mean they're pushovers, but they definitely avoid conflict and are generally private people.

i do hate the part of the infp relationship section on personalitypage that says we enjoy words said during sex more than the actual act. fuck that.
 

Mal12345

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But I/E is also the "least important" (as Keirsey even said), from a functional perspective, as it only tells you which function is dominant (in addition to Keirsey's theory, which doesn't even use the functions).
A lot of times, people have difficulty telling which is dominant or auxiliary. So she knows she prefers Fi, but it's a matter of whether that's dominant or auxiliary, and whether the perception function is Se or Ne.

The discussion moves back and forth between behavior and functions and test results.

What I see is that the system I discuss, which does include ambiversion, is what explains it. She's basically inbetween temperaments in both Inclusion (affecting E/I) and Control (affecting S/N), and there have been other people with similar effects in one system who have the same results in the other.

Just that to me, her hehavior online (which is all I know of) resembles ENFP's more. (Remember Little Linguist?)

You're forcing me to have to read up on this. :) William Schultz, who invented Inclusion/Control/Affection, did not believe in typology, he was an anti-typologist. Is his the system that includes ambiversion? There are no dichotomies and it resists labeling people as being ever-changing.
 

lunalum

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The MBTI only claims 75% accuracy.

What does a function preference test tell you? http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp

Is humanmetrics actually measuring by functions? It says 33% E, 62% N, 25% T, and 67% P but doesn't list functions. I'm either ENTP or INTP by other function-preference quizzes, but I don't take those to be 100% accurate either :tongue: It is not just your test that we pick on....
 

Mal12345

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Is humanmetrics actually measuring by functions? It says 33% E, 62% N, 25% T, and 67% P but doesn't list functions. I'm either ENTP or INTP by other function-preference quizzes, but I don't take those to be 100% accurate either :tongue: It is not just your test that we pick on....

Hmm, I was hoping you would explain humanmetrics to me.
 

Eric B

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You're forcing me to have to read up on this. :) William Schultz, who invented Inclusion/Control/Affection, did not believe in typology, he was an anti-typologist. Is his the system that includes ambiversion? There are no dichotomies and it resists labeling people as being ever-changing.
Schutz (no "l" in the name) created that structure, and yes, avoided typology, saying it was measuring changeable behavior. Another guy, named Ryan, came along and created a "map" of the score grid, which did give names of the different score ranges (9 for Inclusion and Affection, and a 10th in Control), though still said these were changeable behaviors.
A couple, named the Arno's, licensed the system, but mapped the four temperaments to it (and discovered "extra space" so to speak, that did not fit in the ancient four, and so became a fifth). Temperament, of course, is apart of an inborn typology.

In my studies; I've determined that Inclusion corresponds to Interaction Styles (E/I + NP/SF; NJ/ST), and Control is Keirsey's groups. (S + J/P; N + T/F).

I forget if Schutz or Ryan ever used the terms introvert and extrovert. They might not, since they didn't believe this is really apart of the person. But yes, it is their grid that implies those terms as well as ambiversion, when extended to inborn temperament.
Since this system is based on a 2D 10x10 grid, scores of 4 or 5 in either dimension are considered moderate. Since low expressed Inclusion (eI) scores correspond to "introverted" temperaments (such as Melancholy), and high eI scores correspond to extroverted temperaments (Sanguine, Choleric), then eI of 4 and 5 is technically ambiverted. In MBTI, they will still have to be either E or I, but they may have difficulty determining which.
 

Mal12345

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Schutz (no "l" in the name) created that structure, and yes, avoided typology, saying it was measuring changeable behavior. Another guy, named Ryan, came along and created a "map" of the score grid, which did give names of the different score ranges (9 for Inclusion and Affection, and a 10th in Control), though still said these were changeable behaviors.
A couple, named the Arno's, licensed the system, but mapped the four temperaments to it (and discovered "extra space" so to speak, that did not fit in the ancient four, and so became a fifth). Temperament, of course, is apart of an inborn typology.

In my studies; I've determined that Inclusion corresponds to Interaction Styles (E/I + NP/SF; NJ/ST), and Control is Keirsey's groups. (S/N + J/P).

I forget if Schutz or Ryan ever used the terms introvert and extrovert. They might not, since they don't believe this is really apart of the person. But yes, it is their grid that implies those terms as well as ambiversion, when extended to inborn temperament.
Since this system is based on a 2D 10x10 grid, scores of 4 or 5 in either dimension are considered moderate. Since low expressed Inclusion (eI) scores correspond to "introverted" temperaments (such as Melancholy), and high eI scores correspond to extroverted temperaments (Sanguine, Choleric), then eI of 4 and 5 is technically ambiverted. In MBTI, they will still have to be either E or I, but they may have difficulty determining which.

The Phlegmatic temperament is the ambiverted type.
 

Eric B

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Yes, Phlegmatic is the temperament that scores 4 or 5 in both dimensions. Ambiversion would be the Expressed scale. In the Wanted scale it would correspond to being inbetween in directing and informing or people/task.
When the score is 4 or 5 in only one dimension, then it is considered a blend of Phlegmatic with one of the other temperaments.
Here is the table of it: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27264&p=1029051&viewfull=1#post1029051
 

Mal12345

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Yes, Phlegmatic is the temperament that scores 4 or 5 in both dimensions. Ambiversion would be the Expressed scale. In the Wanted scale it would correspond to being inbetween in directing and informing or people/task.
When the score is 4 or 5 in only one dimension, then it is considered a blend of Phlegmatic with one of the other temperaments.
Here is the table of it: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27264&p=1029051&viewfull=1#post1029051

Ok. But I have this one question: Why do you say that ISTJ corresponds to pure Melancholy at http://www.erictb.info/temperament1s.html ?

I'm assuming you authored that page.
 

Eric B

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IST introverted (low eI), directive (low wI): Melancholy in Inclusion
SJ cooperative (low eC), structure focused (low wC): Melancholy in Control

In fact, Keirsey's correlation of SJ to Melancholic, and Berens' correlation of IST/INJ to Melancholic are not disputed. Names such as "Guardian" or "Stabilizer", and "Contender" or "Chart the Course" reflect common Melancholy traits.

Hence, each type is a blend of temperaments, and the ISTJ happens to be Melancholy in both areas.
(Affection is not represented, and thus might indicate some variation, like an ISTJ being more expressive and/or responsive in his deep relationships.
If the Affection is a different temperament like that, then technically, it wouldn't be a "pure" Melancholy, but for the sake of the type correlation to the other two areas, it is the purest Melancholy).
 

Mal12345

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IST introverted (low eI), directive (low wI): Melancholy in Inclusion
SJ cooperative (low eC), structure focused (low wC): Melancholy in Control

In fact, Keirsey's correlation of SJ to Melancholic, and Berens' correlation of IST/INJ to Melancholic are not disputed. Names such as "Guardian" or "Stabilizer", and "Contender" or "Chart the Course" reflect common Melancholy traits.

Hence, each type is a blend of temperaments, and the ISTJ happens to be Melancholy in both areas.
(Affection is not represented, and thus might indicate some variation, like an ISTJ being more expressive and/or responsive in his deep relationships.
If the Affection is a different temperament like that, then technically, it wouldn't be a "pure" Melancholy, but for the sake of the type correlation to the other two areas, it is the purest Melancholy).

I'm following everything on the page except the type correlations. As an INTP I am not phlegmatic in inclusion. Your own scores on the APS say nothing about phlegmatic.
 

Eric B

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INP can be either Phlegmatic or Supine, and I'm Supine. Again, this is a fifth temperament, and it ends up bundled together with the Phlegmatic. The reason why; Phlegmatic was originally the introverted, people-focused temperament, purely by comparison with the other three. Now, Supine holds that slot, while Phlegmatic is completely moderate.
Since typology is still based on 4x4 (and not five), the two fall into the same slot. (Theoretically, I would say Phlegmatic could correspond to anything, but from its descriptions, it does seem a closer match to "Behind the Scenes" and "Idealist" types).

So then what Inclusion temperament do you identify with?
 

iwakar

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My personal experience with ISFPs is that they do hold back a lot. I haven't met too many who I'd call strong verbal communicators, especially when it comes to their feelings. Most I know in person will reach a point where it comes out in a passive-aggressive manner, via snarky comments or destructive behavior.

Like any Fi-dom, they may be more open with those they trust in their inner-circle. The theoretical descriptions of Fi describe this reservedness as typical also. Jung describes a person who does not venture to express much of themselves unless it's a BIG DEAL to them, and a big part of this is due to an acute awareness that you feel differently from others & will not be understood. There's also little desire to affect other people with their feelings, whereas with Fe types, they very much want to influence others in order to create consensus and unity.

Some of the most quiet, reserved, withdrawn people I've known have been ISFPs. I think extroversion/introversion levels in terms of demeanor is an individual matter.

I think enneagram may play a huge part here too. Many ISFPs are enneagram 9 and they will withdraw & shutdown to cope, avoiding conflict & communicating with others. Profiles tend to be based partly on theory, partly on the writer's own observations. I often see many INFP profiles, for example, read like 9 types, and as a 4 I don't relate as well.

When it comes to INFP profiles, personalitypage is one of the better ones, IMO. That's the one which made me first consider I may be INFP, since I usually test INTP.

This has been my experience with the one confirmed ISFP in my life. She holds back a LOT until she's sure she won't offend. She's even more allergic to conflict than I used to be... even more than her INFP son too for that matter.
 

Quinlan

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It's not like I have tons to share but hold it all back, I just don't have much to share.

Not like those introverted intuitives with all their wacky wacky ideas and what not.
 

Eric B

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Just that to me, her hehavior online (which is all I know of) resembles ENFP's more. (Remember Little Linguist?)
OK, scratch that; as I see LL is back, and now she's wearing ESFP too!:doh:

This all might be more evidence for ENFP, as NFP's are said to be the ones who find it hardest to settle on a type. From what I gather, SFP's don't think as much about this stuff. It seems to be more of an N focus that leads people to break the concept down and try different things out.
 
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