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Dario Nardi's Neuroscience of Personality

Seymour

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I was typing this up, and then I went to eat dinner. I spent a lot of time putting this together at Starbucks yesterday. It's amazing how similar ESTPs and INTPs are. Nardi says that ESTPs are more geared towards tactical action (he used Mario Kart to simulate this), and I guess INTPs are more inclined to be boring data analysts.

If there's an error somewhere, let me know.

One thing to keep in mind is that he published usage per region for an example individual of each type based on data collected during that person's session, not a per-type weighted average. If you look at the 3 ISFPs case study towards the end of the book, you can see that the ISFPs differ on specifics a fair amount. Also, given that he has about 3-6 people of each type, that's not a large enough sample of individual types to generalize too much. His examples are certainly very suggestive, but I think ranking as you've done above is more ranking example individuals, and not ranking types themselves.

This is especially true given how training and experience seem to shape what regions on you use (and all the more so for SJs).



[...Fi types ignoring the negative...] This sounds so very e9 though....which of course, many ISFPs are. I wonder if this is why ISFPs are more prone to this than INFPs.

Although the below suggests otherwise, even though its regarding F8 (F8 Grounded Believer: Evaluate people and activities in terms of like or dislike, and/or recall details with high accuracy):

I didn't personally relate much to that part, either. Although I admit I'm perfectly capable of attempting to ignore contrary information when I don't have time to process. Still, if anything, I tend to fasten on negative feedback and ignore the positive.

Other studies have claimed a correlation between depression and preferring Fp2 over Fp1, so seems unlikely to me personally that Fp1 vs Fp2 can be entirely about type. When you look at the various things that Fp1 seems to do (deciding quickly, coming up with reasonable sounding explanations, noticing errors, filtering out distractions, and pursuing goals), neither of the IFPs really pop into mind as exemplars.

So... that's an area where I think more research would be nice since Nardi's results in this instance seem so counterintuitive (at least to me, personally).

I'm actually surprised that INFPs use this mostly positively. I have to admit I tend to evaluate negatively (as Jung noted Fi is apt to do, or it appears that way, at least).... I see how things DON'T measure up to an ideal & then consider if I can accept its deficiencies. Only if something has potential that is really strikingly close to an ideal can I put on rose-coloured glasses & naively focus on its positives, and really, I see this as Ne tendency to inject positive potential into the unknown.

I think F8 sometimes fires when judging things that are personally important, not necessarily that things are perfect. For example, Nardi gave the example one musician for whom it fired when he talked bout "my music" and "my guitar." For one SFJ (don't remember the exact type), it seemed to fire when he talked about "being there for friends" and the value he placed on friendship. I would call those positive valuations, even though they aren't evaluating any particular artifact as perfect.

Although, conversely, Nardi does mention F8 firing when evaluating things based beliefs of what is always good/bad. Unlike T5, F8 is about what is good and bad regardless of social context. It also seem to be a region where non-socially-contextual modesty is based.

So, anyway... don't have good answers or guesses for this, really. I certainly tend towards perfectionism myself and don't see myself as wearing rose-colored glasses. Still, I feel like I tend to define myself based more what I value and stand for, not what I demonize and stand against. It would have been helpful if Nardi had given some examples of negative F8 valuations he saw more with other types (assuming I didn't just forget that he did so).
 

Rasofy

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I was typing this up, and then I went to eat dinner. I spent a lot of time putting this together at Starbucks yesterday. It's amazing how similar ESTPs and INTPs are. Nardi says that ESTPs are more geared towards tactical action (he used Mario Kart to simulate this), and I guess INTPs are more inclined to be boring data analysts.

If there's an error somewhere, let me know.
Great job, the data is very interesting.
 

FFF

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One thing to keep in mind is that he published usage per region for an example individual of each type based on data collected during that person's session, not a per-type weighted average. If you look at the 3 ISFPs case study towards the end of the book, you can see that the ISFPs differ on specifics a fair amount. Also, given that he has about 3-6 people of each type, that's not a large enough sample of individual types to generalize too much. His examples are certainly very suggestive, but I think ranking as you've done above is more ranking example individuals, and not ranking types themselves.

This is especially true given how training and experience seem to shape what regions on you use (and all the more so for SJs).

I also think that frequency of use may not mean quality of use unless experience is a must for the situation. He also stuck with only the people who didn't question what type they were. There are probably a lot of mixed up in betweeners out there.
 

dimane

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One thing to keep in mind is that he published usage per region for an example individual of each type based on data collected during that person's session, not a per-type weighted average. If you look at the 3 ISFPs case study towards the end of the book, you can see that the ISFPs differ on specifics a fair amount. Also, given that he has about 3-6 people of each type, that's not a large enough sample of individual types to generalize too much. His examples are certainly very suggestive, but I think ranking as you've done above is more ranking example individuals, and not ranking types themselves.

This is especially true given how training and experience seem to shape what regions on you use (and all the more so for SJs).
I think your right because their individual cognitive skill sets that separate people within in the same type
 

Thalassa

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If you look at the INTJ vs ISFP, these two EEGs are remarkably similar with only one salient difference: ISFPs are way more "judgey", while INTJs are way more tentative and perceiving. This one difference accounts for how the same pathways appear to be used in very different ways. It's as if the INTJ wants to sit back and use the video card of his mind to work on physics simulations, for example, while the ISFP wants to use his mental video card to play awesome games/videos with great sound and special effects.

This is awesome (and true) since people often presume the opposite.
 

highlander

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If you look at the INTJ vs ISFP, these two EEGs are remarkably similar with only one salient difference: ISFPs are way more "judgey", while INTJs are way more tentative and perceiving. This one difference accounts for how the same pathways appear to be used in very different ways. It's as if the INTJ wants to sit back and use the video card of his mind to work on physics simulations, for example, while the ISFP wants to use his mental video card to play awesome games/videos with great sound and special effects.

Very interesting...

Very a la what [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] was saying in the thread on judging the other day.

On the judginess thing and INTJ vs. ISFP - I just elaborated on it here.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54454&p=1817518&viewfull=1#post1817518
 

highlander

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For Fp1 and Fp2, a table provided in chapter 9 presents the best way to understand them rather than as level 3 (mod. high) and 4 (high). What follows are the types and percentage of Fp1/Fp2. Notice the first four types are the most imbalanced, especially the ISFP.

ISFP = 68/32
ENFJ = 63/37
ENTJ = 63/37
ISTP = 59/41
INFP = 52/48
ESFJ = 52/48
ESTJ = 52/48
INTP = 51/49
INFJ = 49/51
ENTP= 48/52
ENFP = 48/52
INTJ = 48/52
ESFP = 48/52
ISTJ = 47/53
ESTP = 46/54
ISFJ = 45/55

Fp1 = this region is active when a person gives an explanation, picks among options, or explains a meaning. This region also acts as a gate keeper to screen out negative information that might distract us emotionally.

Fp2 = This region is active when a person deals with novel information or when noting he or she has reached a point in a process. This region also admits negative input and mutes our emotional responses so we can reflect on input.

Maybe this description of each of them would help (from his presentation included included in one of the links above).

Fp1: Filters out negative information, resulting in lowered self-awareness and also happiness.

Fp2: Manages negative information about oneself, resulting in self-awareness and also sadness.
 

OrangeAppled

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I think F8 sometimes fires when judging things that are personally important, not necessarily that things are perfect. For example, Nardi gave the example one musician for whom it fired when he talked bout "my music" and "my guitar." For one SFJ (don't remember the exact type), it seemed to fire when he talked about "being there for friends" and the value he placed on friendship. I would call those positive valuations, even though they aren't evaluating any particular artifact as perfect.

Oh I see..... basically, if the individual finds something unimportant, then they ignore it rather than consider it thoroughly, so that region won't light up when they're disinterested in something (which is anything assigned a negative value).

Actually, this does bring to mind Jung's description of how Fi glides unheedingly over objects that don't align with its vision, a sort of disinterest in anything not personally valued, which is like a passive, default devaluation of sorts. In simple terms, it seems IFPs can be indifferent to many things, not bothering to form a strong opinion one way or the other, unless something is in an area important to them. This can give the impression of being indecisive or indifferent to others, but then people are surprised to see a strong, passionate opinion come seemingly out of nowhere when it is an issue that matters to the IFP.

Although, conversely, Nardi does mention F8 firing when evaluating things based beliefs of what is always good/bad. Unlike T5, F8 is about what is good and bad regardless of social context. It also seem to be a region where non-socially-contextual modesty is based.

So, anyway... don't have good answers or guesses for this, really. I certainly tend towards perfectionism myself and don't see myself as wearing rose-colored glasses. Still, I feel like I tend to define myself based more what I value and stand for, not what I demonize and stand against. It would have been helpful if Nardi had given some examples of negative F8 valuations he saw more with other types (assuming I didn't just forget that he did so).

I do this as well for moral things or things I stand for in general. I'm not one to put a lot of energy against something I disagree with unless there's some direct violation against me. I'm more apt to support & consider what I do agree with. I can see how TJs are more negative in this respect.

But when it comes to taste & my identity, sometimes I find it easier to articulate what I don't like or what I am not. This is supposedly common to e4s, to define your identity around negatives, be it negative experiences ("I was outcast as a teen"), things you don't like (ie. "I don't like country music"), or things you aren't ("I'm not outgoing"). I have a harder time articulating my taste & personality in positive terms.

Okay...I know I'm probably connecting unrelated stuff...I'll stop :p.
 

Zarathustra

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Maybe this description of each of them would help (from his presentation included included in one of the links above).

Fp1: Filters out negative information, resulting in lowered self-awareness and also happiness.

Fp2: Manages negative information about oneself, resulting in self-awareness and also sadness.

I really like what this empirical approach brings to the table.

For a while now, I've been thinking about the types a lot as 8 different groups, with a sliding scale of introversion to extroversion:
NTJs
NTPs
NFJs
NFPs
STJs
STPs
SFJs
SFPs

But what a lot of this stuff is showing is the importance of thinking in terms of Jungian cousins:
ETJs
INJs
ENPs
ITPs
EFJs
IFPs
ISJs
ESPs

Of course, being aware of all of the different ways of slicing the types is what's really important.
 

uumlau

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I really like what this empirical approach brings to the table.

For a while now, I've been thinking about the types a lot as 8 different groups, with a sliding scale of introversion to extroversion:
NTJs
NTPs
NFJs
NFPs
STJs
STPs
SFJs
SFPs

But what a lot of this stuff is showing is the importance of thinking in terms of Jungian cousins:
ETJs
INJs
ENPs
ITPs
EFJs
IFPs
ISJs
ESPs

Of course, being aware of all of the different ways of slicing the types is what's really important.

Yeah, I'm suspecting (due to several observations, not just the Nardi book) that EXYZ and IXYZ don't really have that much in common. There appears to be much more commonality due to sharing a dominant function or (less obviously) one's tertiary and inferior being the same as another's dom/aux.

Commonality does not imply, however, "getting along." INTJs and ISFPs might have similar cognitive traits, but the actual priorities held by each would make it difficult to get along in most cases. Their priorities, in fact would be "equal, but opposite".

Another observation I have about the book and the EEG breakdowns: it feels like finally getting clues about how matter is made up of atoms and an elemental periodic table, instead of fire, earth, air and water. The Aristotelian elements are analogous to typology: you classify what you can observe, because the underlying reality is invisible. But while the Aristotelian model is thoroughly discredited, I should note that even though matter is not made up of four elements, it does occur in four states: plasma (fire), solid (earth), gaseous (air), and liquid (water). Coming up with a more precise description doesn't mean that the original description is without merit - it's just that typologies (like zoologies) are a first step in classifying things with enough clarity that one can even begin to talk about them.
 

Mia.

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observe, because the underlying reality is invisible. But while the Aristotelian model is thoroughly discredited, I should note that even though matter is not made up of four elements, it does occur in four states: plasma (fire), solid (earth), gaseous (air), and liquid (water). Coming up with a more precise description doesn't mean that the original description is without merit - it's just that typologies (like zoologies) are a first step in classifying things with enough clarity that one can even begin to talk about them.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Up to now, despite having its roots in psychoanalytical theory, in point of descriptives typology has more resembled the structuralism and functionalism in early psychology in many ways, particularly structuralism in its methods. Perhaps now we will see an expedited evolution in description of the theory as it catches up in its use of modern methods.
 

INTP

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I also think that frequency of use may not mean quality of use unless experience is a must for the situation. He also stuck with only the people who didn't question what type they were. There are probably a lot of mixed up in betweeners out there.

well, if you are good at something the wiring at that area is highly effective and doesent evoke much activation, but the area is used more frequently. on the other hand, if you really suck at something and are forced to use some region intensely, it may get really active.

as an example that he used on INTP getting embarrassed, not much activation on t5 normally and it doesent get activated easily, but when it does, it gets really active and the activation even spreads to areas nearby.
 

SD45T-2

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Does this apply only to literal authority figures or also to people they perceive to be an authority on a subject? In other words, do they simply respond to people in charge or do they also respond to those who command more knowledge and/or experience than themselves? Perhaps it is more generally driven by respect...
For me it's respect. I'm tend to be pretty cynical about people in positions of authority.

Just in case you're interested: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sj-guardhouse/38266-cognitive-function-results-estjs-3.html
 

Mia.

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well, if you are good at something the wiring at that area is highly effective and doesent evoke much activation, but the area is used more frequently. on the other hand, if you really suck at something and are forced to use some region intensely, it may get really active.

as an example that he used on INTP getting embarrassed, not much activation on t5 normally and it doesent get activated easily, but when it does, it gets really active and the activation even spreads to areas nearby.

This is typical neural pathway behavior. Neural pathways that are frequently used are like paths worn through grass - the more activity less grass, the easier it is to travel it actively, and when it rains water tends to flow along these worn down areas and stay channeled. When it rains a lot, and water floods over into grass that has not been worn down, the water spreads out everywhere and isn't contained and forms no pattern. This is called generalization in patients having seizures, for example.
 

Thalassa

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4 = highest and 1 = lowest

Region F7 Imaginary Mimic
4: ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ESFJ
3: ESTJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INFJ, INFP, INTP
2: ESTP, ENFJ, ISTP, ISFP
1: ENTJ, ISFJ

Region F8 = Grounded Believer
4: ESFP, ESTJ, ENTJ, INFJ, ISTJ, INFP
3: ENFP, ISFP, INTP
2: ENTP, ESFJ, ENFJ, ISTP, INTJ
1: ESTP, ISFJ

Region F3 = Deductive Analyst
4: ESTP, INTP
3: ESTJ
2: ESFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ
1: ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ENTJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INFJ, ISTP, ISFP, INFP

Region F4 = Expert Classifier
4: ESTP, INTP
3: none
2: ESFJ, ENTJ, INFJ
1: ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ESTJ, ENFJ, INTJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, ISTP, ISFP, INFP

Region T3 = Precise Speaker
4: ENTP, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INFJ, INFP
3: ESTP, ESTJ, ISFJ, ISFP, ISTP
2: ESFP, ENFP, ISTJ, INTP
1: none

Region T4 = Intuitive Listener
4: ESFP, ENFP, INFP
3: ENTP, ENTJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, ISFP
2: ESTP, ESTJ, ISTJ, INFJ, ISTP
1: ESFJ, INTP

Region C3 = Factual Storekeeper
4: ESTJ, INTP
3: ESFP, ESFJ, ENTJ
2: ENFJ, ISFJ, INTJ, INFP
1: ESTP, ENTP, ENFP, ISTJ, INFJ, ISTP, ISFP

Region C4 = Flowing Artist
4: ENFJ, ISFJ
3: ESFP, ENTP
2: ENTJ, ESFJ, INFJ, INTP, ISFP, INFP
1: ENFP, ESTJ, ESTP, ISTJ, INTJ, ISTP

Region T5 = Sensitive Mediator
4: ESFJ, ENFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ
3: ENFP, INFJ
2: ENTP, ESTJ, ISFP, INTJ, ISTP, INFP
1: ESTP, ESFP, ENTJ, INTP

Region T6 = Purposeful Futurist
4: INTJ, ISFP
3: ENFP, ESFJ, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTP, INFP
2: ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, INTP
1: none

Region P3 = Tactical Navigator
4: ISTP
3: ESTP, ISTJ
2: ESFP, ENFP, ISFJ, ISFP
1: ENTP, ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INFJ, INTP, INFP

Region P4 = Strategic Gamer
4: ESTP, ENTP, ISTP
3: none
2: ENFP, ENTJ, ENFJ, INTJ, INTP
1: ESFP, ESTJ, ESFJ, ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, ISFP, INFP

Region O1 = Visual Engineer
4: ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INFJ, ISFP
3: ESFP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTP, INTP
2: ESTP, ENTP, ENFP, INFP
1: ENFJ

Region O2 = Astract Impressionist
4: ENFP, ISFJ, ISTP, ISFP
3: ESTP, ENTP, ENTJ, ENFJ, ISTJ, INTJ, INFP
2: ESFP, ESTJ, INFJ
1: ESFJ, INTP

I was typing this up, and then I went to eat dinner. I spent a lot of time putting this together at Starbucks yesterday. It's amazing how similar ESTPs and INTPs are. Nardi says that ESTPs are more geared towards tactical action (he used Mario Kart to simulate this), and I guess INTPs are more inclined to be boring data analysts.

If there's an error somewhere, let me know.

When I first read this thread I was like "wow I went and picked out the two sections IFPs use most, and I seem more ISFP than INFP"...reading your list, though, ESFP makes more sense, because I am more inclined to "factual storekeeping" for example.
 

FFF

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When I first read this thread I was like "wow I went and picked out the two sections IFPs use most, and I seem more ISFP than INFP"...reading your list, though, ESFP makes more sense, because I am more inclined to "factual storekeeping" for example.

Having made more progress in the book, I see that those are just averages of how much different people of those types used those regions. Some people of the same type had drastically different usage levels.
 

Mia.

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Having made more progress in the book, I see that those are just averages of how much different people of those types used those regions. Some people of the same type had drastically different usage levels.

Here is another example of why the small sample size becomes an issue.
 

uumlau

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Here is another example of why the small sample size becomes an issue.

True, but I would still tend to look for the "dynamics" of the EEG data, not the aggregate value of the "usages" of particular regions. The latter might be able to help determine type, in a very broad sense, but I think the dynamics might prove to be more specific.

I can totally see why he published the data, though. It's not conclusive, but DANG, there's a lot of useful info along with the stuff we can rightly be skeptical about.
 

Mia.

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True, but I would still tend to look for the "dynamics" of the EEG data, not the aggregate value of the "usages" of particular regions. The latter might be able to help determine type, in a very broad sense, but I think the dynamics might prove to be more specific.

I can totally see why he published the data, though. It's not conclusive, but DANG, there's a lot of useful info along with the stuff we can rightly be skeptical about.

Absolutely. In addition to the useful information already produced, what I'm hoping transpires is that all the attention given due to the findings and the book will attract more money and opportunities for him to do revised/more extensive and add-on research.
 

Eric B

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Book arrived today, so now I'll see what all the hoopla is about (looks interesting, from what I can see glancing through it).
 
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