• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Is your shadow type really like your opposite gender, feminine or masculine, side?

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
Well yeah, early childhood experiences and pressures are both extremely pervasive in our lives and extremely hard to remember and pinpoint. My point was that there is no biological reason for a girl to act girly or a guy to act manly. At some point, your parents probably felt that, as a girl, you should identify with other girls, and nudged you in that direction, just like my parents did with boy stuff.

That's funny, I have vivid memories of thinking girls/women were preferable to men/boys as a very small child. When I was like 3/4/5...like eww boys gross and just thought girls were better, in the sense of my own identity. I'm pretty sure that stage children go through is biological and not socially enforced.

Also, I do think that many girls really are more comfortable acting feminine, and vice versa, and that it's a small percentage that actually strongly, naturally prefer the opposite role ...it's due to something rather than socialization because one of my sisters was a fucking brute compared to the rest of us, while another one of my sisters (ISFJ) is so feminine and giving and "fragile" seeming it's ridiculous, until you see her tough fighting side come out.

I really liked loving things as a child. Dogs, cats, stuffed animals more than baby dolls, honestly. I wanted to nurture things, it felt better than many things to me...but I also liked jumping on my bed and riding my tricycle and playing outdoors. I remember being very fascinated by watching ant hills in our yard as a small child, too. Like not wanting to kill them but to watch them.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
Well yeah, early childhood experiences and pressures are both extremely pervasive in our lives and extremely hard to remember and pinpoint. My point was that there is no biological reason for a girl to act girly or a guy to act manly. At some point, your parents probably felt that, as a girl, you should identify with other girls, and nudged you in that direction, just like my parents did with boy stuff.

There is a biological reason for you to act manly, it's called testosterone. Nobody had to nudge me in the direction of a barbie and a pink corvette. If you handed me a boring boy toy at 4, I would have girly'fied it with pink or made a joke of it.

One year Barbie was sold with a tiny tube of real lipstick. Ken wore a pink scarf and he had Barbie kisses all over his face. He rode shotgun in Barbie's pink Corvette convertible and Mr. Potato head rode strapped in the back. Good times.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
I loved the hell out of my Barbie Dreamhouse!

I liked Mr. Potato Head too. :laugh:
 

amerellis

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
461
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4/9
Girls only act 'feminine' because they feel like they are expected to, and have been placed in that box from a young age. Boys are, of course, the same with masculinity. Even the link between testosterone and traditional male aggression is not certain. When upset, I don't act how I think girls act because I don't think girls act in any particular way.

Down with sexual discrimination! :solidarity:

Yeah no I know what you mean, but I don't mean superficial stereotypical stuff. I mean there are some ENTP males who are always making funny facial expressions while I've noticed this is less common in ENTP girls. And ISFJ girls with well developed shadow functions, you'll find having a similar sort of flow to their speech as ENTP males and making the same sort of faces. Thart's just one example of what I mean.
 

Xyk

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
284
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
There is a biological reason for you to act manly, it's called testosterone. Nobody had to nudge me in the direction of a barbie and a pink corvette. If you handed me a boring boy toy at 4, I would have girlyfied it with pink or made a joke of it. Yep, I would have cut up one of barbie's pink dresses to make little pink scarfs, which I would have tied around g.i. joe's neck. Nobody would have nudged me to do that.

Do you have any baby pictures in dresses? You would have to get the behavior from somewhere, and it's culture, whether your parents gave you subtle clues on how a girl acts or your peers or the things you read/watched/listened to, not biology that attracts women to cuteness. I've actually never had to make this argument before because it seemed so obvious. Do you think you have a "cute" gland somewhere in your head that's somehow connected to the XX chromosome? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Estrogen doesn't have any effect that attracts girls to girly things. It is completely cultural.

Testosterone may play a part in typical male behavior, i.e. aggression. The link between testosterone and aggression in humans is shaky at best as demonstrated here, here, and here.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
Do you have any baby pictures in dresses? You would have to get the behavior from somewhere, and it's culture, whether your parents gave you subtle clues on how a girl acts or your peers or the things you read/watched/listened to, not biology that attracts women to cuteness. I've actually never had to make this argument before because it seemed so obvious. Do you think you have a "cute" gland somewhere in your head that's somehow connected to the XX chromosome? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Estrogen doesn't have any effect that attracts girls to girly things. It is completely cultural.

Testosterone may play a part in typical male behavior, i.e. aggression. The link between testosterone and aggression in humans is shaky at best as demonstrated here, here, and here.

It's true that part of our behavior is learned, but that's only part of it. The most basic explanation for feminine and masculine behavior is biological. I didn't just pull that out of my back panty pocket. To say "the link between testosterone and agression in humans is shakey at best" is a trick of semantics and not a real scientific explanation. Do you agree? I read the NYTimes article you provided to support that idea and due to its lack of a proper scientific explanation, the article is what I would call "shakey at best." The behavior of men and women, just like that of other species is partly determined by levels of sex hormones in the body. That's a fact.
 

amerellis

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
461
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4/9
[MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION] [MENTION=13419]Xyk[/MENTION] : Ok you guys, no offense, but I specifically said that I didn't want this thread to turn into a gender debate. Please take this else where.
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
[MENTION=8543]Nerd Girl[/MENTION] [MENTION=13419]Xyk[/MENTION] : Ok you guys, no offense, but I specifically said that I didn't want this thread to turn into a gender debate. Please take this else where.

If you're hell bent on micro-managing this three ring circus, then you better speak up and clarify what you mean by "gender debate." You lost me and I'm guessing a few other folks with that; all I'm hearing right now are crickets.
 

amerellis

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
461
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4/9
If you're hell bent on micro-managing this three ring circus, then you better speak up and clarify what you mean by "gender debate." You lost me and I'm guessing a few other folks with that; all I'm hearing right now is crickets.

*crickets*
 
A

A window to the soul

Guest
Do you think shadow type corresponds with your opposite gender?

I have seen where [some] men appeared effeminate and [some] women appeared masculine under pressure. I don’t know what I’m looking for in myself to see it, or I don’t want to see it.

Eric B provided a pretty good explanation.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I can also add the Opposing Personality, which is the shadow of the dominant (or "Hero") and also a sort of reflection of the anima/animus. It uses the dominant function in the opposite attitude, and Beebe had said this complex was contrasexual as well.
So this, in the Beebean sense of the word, is the true "shadow type", as the inferior is considered to be on the "ego-syntonic" side.

Where your dominant perspective bears your preferred J/P orientation (and associated brain hemisphere), the inferior is the opposite orientation and hemisphere. As a "reflection" of this, the OP bears the same orientations and hemisphere as the inferior, and gender seems to follow this as well.

At first, it was hard to believe (especially regarding Te), but when I really looked at it, things started to make sense (including stuff I was aware of from early ages, but could never explain).
The OP for me can be described a sassy female image who uses objective logic to "buck the system" in various ways. I found it is what I've often projected onto spunky TJ females who seem to fit the role (especially using wit over males).
Its sort of the more negative projections further isolated off from the anima.

This seems to be harder to detect and identify in yourself, because of the fact, that it lies in the true shadow (ego-dystonic) or deeper in the unconscious than the inferior.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,245
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I used to have a lot of questions about my gender identity in the past, and am now of the belief that most of what we identify as gender differences is really just societally induced bullshit.

Some of it is, especially when used to limit/constrain behavior.

However, I think you can't escape from the fact that there tend to be some natural differences between the genders. However, I don't these differences limit either gender at all or that one gender is more deficient than the other. I'd really like to aviod getting in a gender debate though and try to focus on the topic at hand. Do you think shadow type corresponds with your opposite gender?

I'm not really sold on the idea of the inferior NEEDING to be the opposite (AKA anima/animus). That seems to be something deduced as way of balancing the theory, rather than something empirically observed.

My story is a bit complicated, but I would say that for me, it kind of worked that way. However, I'm not sure it typically works if the type goes against grain (i.e., for F males and T women). I think the concept has more to do with the T/F type bias than with the inferior necessarily needing to be opposite-gendered... if we could clearly even define what a type looks like between the male and female presentation in a particular culture.

After fighting off F-style processing through much of my 20's, I finally relented and permitted integration. I think I noticed more stereotypical gender behavior between my T and F (both sides) when I was fighting integration, not when I finally permitted it. Allowing the two to embrace each other left my gendered traits also in more balance with each other, rather than exuding T & F as gendered extremes.

ericb said:
It makes sense, as the ego chooses both a dominant gender identity, as well as a dominant function and dominant attitude. What is not preferred becomes suppressed into the unconscious, and likely forms a [unconscious] complete "image" of sorts, of this totally opposite entity you are incomplete without.

That's a good thought. Kind of funny for me, since what I suppressed was what's attributed to "masculine power/assertion" I think, and then any feminine qualities I did express openly (part of the conscious mind) were distorted / shrill / weak.

The point is that the unconscious gets projected as a defence mechanism of the ego. ego doesent want to see things in self that contradict it, so it represses those things to unconscious, but in some cases the instinct from the unconscious(shadow) are too strong, so ego channels them on external things, aka projects them.

Imo when it comes to anima(or other stuff in unconscious, like inferior function), its better to develop these things in you, to become conscious of them in self, instead of trying to find someone to fill this role in you.

Agreed, that's what "health" typically is. It's awareness and balance and wholeness, rather than chasing thoughtlessly after external means to fulfill the unconscious deficiency.

Not to mention when it comes to inferior projection, its like living in an illusionary world, because these projections have control over you and guide your conscious mind, usually to directions that the ego doesent want and cause dissrtess in this way. but when you have developed the inferior, you have the control for yourself and since developing inferior requires you to let go of your stubborn ego to some extend, you can find something the inferior guides you to sort of like pleasant surprice, because you might find something that the ego would otherwice reject, but what the self actually really likes.

I think it's just scary to let yourself go and risk becoming someone different, out of your control. It's a survival instinct, we want to preserve who we are even if it's not really working for you, and the more scared we are, the more we bury things. You have to really trust the process to submit yourself to "the river of change" so to speak, since that's rather what it is... you throw yourself in and learn to enjoy the swim, rather than fearing you'll drown and lose yourself.

If you're hell bent on micro-managing this three ring circus, then you better speak up and clarify what you mean by "gender debate." You lost me and I'm guessing a few other folks with that; all I'm hearing right now are crickets.

I thought it meant focusing on the anima/animus concept, coupled with discussion of the inferior and the conscious/unconscious (as per the earlier part of the thread), rather than talking about what color babies are supposed to wear and what hormones do to people and why gender stereotypes are bad.
 

Little_Sticks

New member
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
1,358
This seems to be harder to detect and identify in yourself, because of the fact, that it lies in the true shadow (ego-dystonic) or deeper in the unconscious than the inferior.

I've wondered about this, if it would make more sense not to attribute it to the personal unconscious, but the collective. Or perhaps both, but in different ways? I suppose we could analyze it indefinitely then, but stars wars represents the good and evil archetype of the collective uconscious or light and dark that Jung talks about.

I mean I wonder if we should talk about the shadow as being what comes about when controlled by the neurosis of the personal unconscious in a person. And then we could also talk about it belonging to certain collective archetypes.

Archetypes is something really interesting that I don't think anyone has attempted to go in depth with (that seems to be what Jung focused most of his effort on last), perhaps being it can be too suggestive, but it would still be really interesting.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It would lie in both areas. The archetype starts out in the collective unconscious, and when it fills up with personal experience, it enters the personal unconscious and becomes a complex.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Archetypes is something really interesting that I don't think anyone has attempted to go in depth with (that seems to be what Jung focused most of his effort on last), perhaps being it can be too suggestive, but it would still be really interesting.

People have looked deeper into archetypes, but its the professionals who do that stuff, not people on typology forums. if you read journal of analytical psychology for example, there has been loads of articles about archetypes and collective unconscious, linking them to internet age etc
 
Top