SJs in the internet age

[Viridian]

A while ago, someone made a thread about how many MBTI type descriptions seemed quite biased towards the (mid-20th Century?) Western world, especially the USA. There, I remarked on how several descriptions of SJs/Guardians/Golds/Stabilizers were too based on conservative regions of the U.S. (or something similar). I decided the topic was worthy of its own thread.

Nowadays, it's easy to type SJs as Ns if we go by outdated stereotypes of "good ol' traditional men" or "proper ladies" or whatnot. It's a new era, in some ways, and the "SJ = close-minded traditionalist" stereotype seems staler than ever. Not that the internet age doesn't have its traditions, so to speak - I think it's a pretty universal concept - but, given the increased access to information and to other communities and cultures, it's kind a given that the SJs of our (1980s onward) generation(s) are quite difficult to identify unless we decide to go further than those clichés and examine cognitive processes 'n' stuff.

Basically, what I ask is: what do the internet age SJs "look/sound like"? What roles do they usually fulfill? In what ways do they clash with/resemble the SJs of yore? Are they cautious, community-minded, rule-bound, etc.? Do you know of any SJ "internet celebrities"?

(Thanks to [MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION] for her help with tweaking this post. )

(And sorry for my bad English - prepositions are tricky, man! )

 

[Thalassa]

It is largely because of people typing by stereotypes rather than by Si. While Si can be more cautious about accepting new information, or assimilate new experiences carefully into their existing linear framework, it doesn't mean that their original framework took place in a white Protestant Christian household in middle class Montana.

Not only that, but the information age has made new information and ideas more available to everyone, meaning that young SJs actually have an original foundation in a culture full of varying ideas.

 

[tinker683]

MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

<--shamelessly attention whoring

ETA: Ok, a more serious and useful addition:

I'd say the difference between SJs and N's is just that we tend to take things at face value and compare it previous experiences to see if they match up with past experiences with this particular set of stimuli. Since I was raised by an ENFx father and IxFJ mother, I had a much more idea-open household. What's "traditional" for me is actually a paradigm (I hate post-modernism as a rule but that is a useful word) that seems common amongst other Gen-Y'ers. What's interesting is that as I grow older, I'm becoming more "traditionally" masculine in a lot of respects as I'm finding there is a lot of practical value in being that way.

Hope that helps. Am definitely open to questions

 

[Thalassa]

MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

<--shamelessly attention whoring

Basically, what I ask is: what do the internet age SJs "look/sound like"? What roles do they usually fulfill? In what ways do they clash with/resemble the SJs of yore? Are they cautious, community-minded, rule-bound, etc.? Do you know of any SJ "internet celebrities"?

I didn't answer this in my last post. I think internet age SJs seem more savvy with geek culture than some NFs or NTs would give them credit for, which is why they wouldn't be guessed by some people as SJs. They know about memes, trolling, video games, cool new music, and maybe avant garde film. They aren't "sheltered" or necessarily religious (though they CAN be religious, SJ doesn't mean religious or not religious!!!!)

I know several SJ atheists, but others who are very Christian...and the ones I know who are very Christian were raised in the small Southern towns I grew up in with very conservative Christian, Republican families. The ones I know who are atheists were usually raised in more liberal homes; one I know has hippie parents and one I know whose mom is an INTP Buddhist.

I still think they may be viewed as cautious by some other types (but not all other types), and SFJs might be more community minded, while STJs might be more rule bound. It's just best to keep in mind that that "community" isn't necessarily a traditional community and that those rules aren't always conservative Republican rules.

 

[KDude]

SJs just need some sense of order or familiarity more than others. Theoretically speaking. Some of their thinking could be more along the lines of a Rube Goldberg configuration, where everything is arranged and ordered in a proper place for things to flow optimally. If something deviates from it, it pisses them off. And rightly so. Because it's a thing of beauty when it works. The arrangement and pieces however are up for grabs. Like others are saying, it's not a White Middle Class Christian Conservative arrangement necessarily. It could be anything. Or almost anything.

 

[Stanton Moore]

It's possible that without the traditional descriptions, the value of the distinctions is diminished.
We think that typology describes something, but maybe the description can't exist without culturally specific objects. In other words, if a person was identifiable as an ‘SJ’ though the common image of a traditional person (with all of those streotypes), and now that image is less clear, the type distinction is less meaningful or useful.

 

[Viridian]

I didn't answer this in my last post. I think internet age SJs seem more savvy with geek culture than some NFs or NTs would give them credit for, which is why they wouldn't be guessed by some people as SJs. They know about memes, trolling, video games, cool new music, and maybe avant garde film. They aren't "sheltered" or necessarily religious (though they CAN be religious, SJ doesn't mean religious or not religious!!!!)

I know several SJ atheists, but others who are very Christian...and the ones I know who are very Christian were raised in the small Southern towns I grew up in with very conservative Christian, Republican families. The ones I know who are atheists were usually raised in more liberal homes; one I know has hippie parents and one I know whose mom is an INTP Buddhist.

I still think they may be viewed as cautious by some other types (but not all other types), and SFJs might be more community minded, while STJs might be more rule bound. It's just best to keep in mind that that "community" isn't necessarily a traditional community and that those rules aren't always conservative Republican rules.

Yeah, it kinda bugs me when people assume all SJs are like this:

 

[Thalassa]

I think this love of tradition is based in a sense of tangible order, like KDude said.

For my ISTJ this takes the form of arranging physical external order, literally, to keep things neat and organized around him. It also means he thinks there are certain rules that obviously make society work better, like people shouldn't talk on cell phones in movie theaters or restaurants, and it's best to be cautious about allowing his friends into his mother's home (because it's his mother's home, not his own house), and it's best to be cautious about having casual sex because it could result in pregnancy, disease, or someone getting attached emotionally...all of this is sensible caution, and it really has nothing to do with tradition or religion.

Some level of tradition is good because it keeps us grounded. If the world changed too fast, there would be utter chaos, and that really isn't ...well it's not smart. In the realistic, physical realm that would cause so many problems for so many people.

There's some law of physics about stability and change, where change MUST occur, but there also must be a majority of stability so that the universe doesn't go spinning wildly out of control. It's funny to me that the statistic percentages of SJs compared to any N type reflects this.

 

[mujigay]

I think this love of tradition is based in a sense of tangible order, like KDude said.

For my ISTJ this takes the form of arranging physical external order, literally, to keep things neat and organized around him. It also means he thinks there are certain rules that obviously make society work better, like people shouldn't talk on cell phones in movie theaters or restaurants, and it's best to be cautious about allowing his friends into his mother's home (because it's his mother's home, not his own house), and it's best to be cautious about having casual sex because it could result in pregnancy, disease, or someone getting attached emotionally...all of this is sensible caution, and it really has nothing to do with tradition or religion.

Some level of tradition is good because it keeps us grounded. If the world changed too fast, there would be utter chaos, and that really isn't ...well it's not smart. In the realistic, physical realm that would cause so many problems for so many people.

There's some law of physics about stability and change, where change MUST occur, but there also must be a majority of stability so that the universe doesn't go spinning wildly out of control. It's funny to me that the statistic percentages of SJs compared to any N type reflects this.

I like the bolded description. It sounds far more STJ-ish to me than the usual fifties corporate American drone description that one tends to read on type websites.

 

[EJCC]

Holy crap, this thread was a fantastic idea; Thank you [MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION]! Everyone's descriptions of modern SJs ring true for me so far. [MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION] have it right.

I have some friends who have read ESTJ descriptions in books and compared them to me, and the parts that made them LOL knowingly were the parts about being very rigid about things going the way I want them to. If I plan on watching a movie on Friday night, and friday night comes around and that plan gets ruined, it kills my mood in a way that can be obnoxious for friends and/or family to deal with. Of course, that's less of an SJ thing and more of an STJ thing. But regardless, it's an aspect of me that is unaffected by "traditional values" or really any sort of time specificity. Anyone of any age can act like that. I was acting like that when I was in kindergarten!

p.s. I would also like to add that I know some older xNxJs who are as strict -- if not more strict -- about traditional values as/than stereotypical SJs. Which makes those stereotypes even less valid, and even more ridiculous.

 

[Hazashin]

(And sorry for my bad English - prepositions are tricky, man! )

(Off Topic) Dude, you're English is better than mine, and I'm the one everyone (who knows me) goes to me for editing papers. You're English is fine!

 

[Thalassa]

Holy crap, this thread was a fantastic idea; Thank you [MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION]! Everyone's descriptions of modern SJs ring true for me so far. [MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION] have it right.

I have some friends who have read ESTJ descriptions in books and compared them to me, and the parts that made them LOL knowingly were the parts about being very rigid about things going the way I want them to. If I plan on watching a movie on Friday night, and friday night comes around and that plan gets ruined, it kills my mood in a way that can be obnoxious for friends and/or family to deal with. Of course, that's less of an SJ thing and more of an STJ thing. But regardless, it's an aspect of me that is unaffected by "traditional values" or really any sort of time specificity. Anyone of any age can act like that. I was acting like that when I was in kindergarten!

p.s. I would also like to add that I know some older xNxJs who are as strict -- if not more strict -- about traditional values as/than stereotypical SJs. Which makes those stereotypes even less valid, and even more ridiculous.

Oh gosh I know. There's nothing quite like an ENFJ enforcing their politically correct values or an uptight, rigid INTJ who says PEOPLE ARE THIS BLACK AND WHITE BIOLOGICAL WAY BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE SIMPLER TO UNDERSTAND SO I'LL COVER MY EARS AND HUM WHEN YOU POINT OUT FACTORS LIKE SOCIALIZATION AND CULTURAL INFLUENCE.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I don't think the word "tradition" is misapplied to SJs, just that people are zeroing in on the narrowest definition of tradition.

Tradition in regards to Si + Je types tends to mean following an established pattern because it's proved tried & true & maintains stability which allows people to be in control of what happens. Predictability ensures some level of productivity, but the unknown does not ensure much of anything.

This amounts to cultural "common sense", which creates common standards so people can get stuff done without overthinking it & wasting time on constant experimentation. These are things we take for granted within our cultures, & it's not necessarily religion, politics or even world views. These are refined over time, and if they did change too fast, we would not be able to keep up & they'd lose their purpose.

An example is: how do you enter a building? Through a door. You automatically look for a door. Are there other ways to enter a building? Yeah, but having a common standard makes life a bit easier. We can make simple assumptions about how something will be which allows us to turn our creativity to more significant areas.

The inclination for stability is due to Si wanting to control the object, not to be controlled by it (true of all the introverted functions). This means they want to master the object, and that involves knowledge of the object's details, then using planning, order & structure to control it (Je). If looking for some non-standard entry to a building takes a lot of time & causes frustration, then the external physical world is mastering YOU.

SJs especially take these "common sense" standards for granted, because they are inclined to be aware of them without trying, having an almost innate, inner sense of the factual/tangible nature of life. Their focus on their subjective impressions of experiences & facts can amount to an unconscious storehouse of them which quickly pulls up the appropriate interpretation of a sensory object, so that they know just how to react to it. No experience with it means they may approach it cautiously. If it has changed, they may note it quickly for this reason.

So this does not mean SJs aren't open to change. SJs will often say they will embrace innovation as long as it has a good argument (preferably with some factual/tangible proof as support) for why it's better than the current mode.

There's definitely a very individual nature to Si also. I think its Meyers who calls it "idiosyncratic". Their experience of the world is quite subjective & can result in quirks. I notice a lot of SJs feel "weird", and I suspect that's because their inner world is an extremely subjective view of the outer world (ie. like an impressionistic painting), and it's this view they identify with; but since Je is a judging according to the outer world, they may end up seeing themselves or their inner world as weird (not the outer world).

 

[Viridian]

Holy crap, this thread was a fantastic idea; Thank you [MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION]! Everyone's descriptions of modern SJs ring true for me so far. [MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION] have it right.

I have some friends who have read ESTJ descriptions in books and compared them to me, and the parts that made them LOL knowingly were the parts about being very rigid about things going the way I want them to. If I plan on watching a movie on Friday night, and friday night comes around and that plan gets ruined, it kills my mood in a way that can be obnoxious for friends and/or family to deal with. Of course, that's less of an SJ thing and more of an STJ thing. But regardless, it's an aspect of me that is unaffected by "traditional values" or really any sort of time specificity. Anyone of any age can act like that. I was acting like that when I was in kindergarten!

p.s. I would also like to add that I know some older xNxJs who are as strict -- if not more strict -- about traditional values as/than stereotypical SJs. Which makes those stereotypes even less valid, and even more ridiculous.

Well, thank you for the kind words, EJCC!

I've been called "rigid" before and I get kinda peeved when my plans for [insert time period here] are ruined, which has made me wonder whether I'm a gen Y SJ.

(Off Topic) Dude, you're English is better than mine, and I'm the one everyone (who knows me) goes to me for editing papers. You're English is fine!

Hah, thanks! I also worked as a text editor (in my mother tongue) for a while. Weird coincidence, huh?