Fe politics versus Fi politics

[Totenkindly]

It can be a little difficult experiencing both at once.

I think a lot of my issues came from dealing with extremes of Fe, feeling pressure from others and also pressure from myself because my actions inadvertently impacted them and there was no way to extract myself from that web. Like it or not, our behavior impacts those who are part of our lives. Sometimes it hurts them, even if we're honoring other values that need to be honored.

But the Fi thing gives validity and confidence, as you said, to make choices for one's own life and honor oneself as well. There's a sense that the inner identify must be true if the external relationships are to be true as well, and that ultimately we are each responsible for our own lives regardless of how others behave. In the past, I think as soon as I got into a group context, I automatically was aware of myself through my awareness of how others perceived me; that really does screw with your head. Any sense of self was automatically jarred by other's perceptions, right or wrong, fair or unfair. The identity has to be stabilized within to some degree to withstand the pressures of external opinion.

(Obviously you still see me intellectualizing all of this. I approach it this way not necessarily because Fi is instinctive but because it seems fair and "makes sense" to me when I look at the big picture.)

 

[Kiddo]

I can see the conflict you are describing...even in my own life.

I suppose the argument I would make is that I find it offensive to imagine that I am more important than the bonds I share with my friends and family. I think that probably demonstrates my Fe bias. However, I am aware that I have to be secure enough in myself to know that I have rights and purpose that is all my own, and nobody should be allowed to violate that. And that is probably the essence of Fi.

 

[heart]

I can see the conflict you are describing...even in my own life.

I suppose the argument I would make is that I find it offensive to imagine that I am more important than the bonds I share with my friends and family. I think that probably demonstrates my Fe bias. However, I am aware that I have to be secure enough in myself to know that I have rights and purpose that is all my own, and nobody should be allowed to violate that. And that is probably the essence of Fi.

You have a very poor understanding of Fi, if you can imagine that an Fi domiant person (person whose dominant judging function is Fi) does not hold the bonds of those closest to them very dear. I won't hold a bond dear JUST BECAUSE the person happens to be family, it is more what they mean to me and our personal relationship, but I hold the bonds I value very dear and do what I can to accomedate those persons. I tend to go for intensive bonds rather than extensive ones, meaning I tend to pick a few select people and hold them up with loyalty, devotion and admiration.

 

[Kiddo]

You have a very poor understanding of Fi, if you can imagine that an Fi domiant person (person whose dominant judging function is Fi) does not hold the bonds of those closest to them very dear. I won't hold a bond dear JUST BECAUSE the person happens to be family, it is more what they mean to me and our personal relationship, but I hold the bonds I value very dear and do what I can to accomedate those persons. I tend to go for intensive bonds rather than extensive ones, meaning I tend to pick a few select people and hold them up with loyalty, devotion and admiration.

My understanding comes from the discussion I had with my ENFP friend that I mentioned on the previous page. Could you go back and tell me where I got off track? It sounds like Jennifer understands where I am coming from, so I must not have a "very poor understanding".

 

[heart]

My understanding comes from the discussion I had with my ENFP friend that I mentioned on the previous page. Could you go back and tell me where I got off track? It sounds like Jennifer understands where I am coming from, so I must not have a "very poor understanding".

I don't know how to be clearer here. You said that an Fi dom would hold themselves to be more imporant than their dearest bonds and that's just not true. I know it from my own personal experience. Unhealthy Fi would put their own ego glorification above everyone and anything else in life I think, but this would not be the rule for all Fi, especially those who put love of others as part of their higher purpose.

I would never put my own wants above the needs of a person I held to be dear and close to me.

 

[Kiddo]

I don't know how to be clearer here. You said that an Fi dom would hold themselves to be more imporant than their dearest bonds and that's just not true. I know it from my own personal experience. Unhealthy Fi would put their own ego glorification above everyone and anything else in life I think, but this would not be the rule.

I would never put my own wants above the needs of a person I held to be dear and close to me.

I simply asked you to go to the post I made prior to that one so that you could understand where I am coming from. That post is an oversimplification unless you understand the prior reasoning.

 

[heart]

I simply asked you to go to the post I made prior to that one so that you could understand where I am coming from. That post is an oversimplification unless you understand the prior reasoning.

I had already read that. No matter what the prior reasoning, the conclusion is in error.

 

[Kiddo]

I had already read that. No matter what the prior reasoning, the conclusion is in error.

That isn't a conclusion, just an observance in conflict within my life that I percieve as Fe and Fi related. Feel free to ignore that and tell me how I am wrong in my conclusions in the prior post. Is my understanding of Fi in that post, "very poor"? If so, then please explain how so.

 

[heart]

II can't really decide which would be superior to the other since they are so fundamentally different. If you are talking about identity, as in the character and attributes that are composed and asserted from a person's very entity, then Fi is superior.

If you are talking about interdependence, as in how everything and everyone is connected and how those bonds are nurtured through self control and dedication to ideals, then Fe is superior.

Fi's can control themselves just fine via internal judgement. They may very well work with others in a interdepdent way, it is just they will not accept a popular tenent until they have run it through their own values and reasoning and accept it based on their own internal judgment. They can become just as devoted to an idea, it is just that their coming to value that idea is based on internal measures and not external pressures to conform.

I see nothing in your line of reasoning here that justifies saying that Fi holds themselves as more important than loved ones and friends.

 

[Kiddo]

Fi's can control themselves just fine via internal judgement. They may very well work with others in a interdepdent way, it is just they will not accept a popular tenent until they have run it through their own values and reasoning and accept it based on their own internal judgment. They can become just as devoted to an idea, it is just that their coming to value that idea is based on internal measures and not external pressures to conform.

I see nothing in your line of reasoning here that justifies saying that Fi holds themselves as more important than loved ones and friends.

I've said to simply ignore that post. I'll openly admit I may be wrong to draw such a vague conclusion based on my perceptions of the conflict in my life. Is there some reason you refuse to discuss my reasoning in the prior post? Do you find my reasoning in that prior to be sound or not?

It seems to me that you don't really want to discuss it, you are just looking for an argument. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to give you one.

 

[heart]

It seems to me that you don't really want to discuss it, you are just looking for an argument. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to give you one.

I nearly choked laughing at this! Teaches me not to drink and read posts at the same time.

Kiddo, I explained my side of things and how I thought you had things a bit wrong about Fi. I don't it can be explained in a way you will hear and understand.

 

[Kiddo]

I nearly choked laughing at this! Teaches me not to drink and read posts at the same time.

Kiddo, I explained my side of things and how I thought you had things a bit wrong about Fi. I don't it can be explained in a way you will hear and understand.

You don't seem to want to explain why my reasoning is off. In fact, I'm not even taking you seriously at all anymore. It's clear that you have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. I'll leave you to your "jeers" and demeaning of my intelligence.

My Fi is telling me I don't have to stand for your bullshit because I made an honest and open exploration of what Fi means in that post, and all you could do was insult me without providing any rationalization of how I was misguided. I'm far from perfect, but at least I'm a better person than that.

 

[heart]

You don't seem to want to explain why my reasoning is off. In fact, I'm not even taking you seriously at all anymore. It's clear that you have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. I'll leave you to your "jeers" and demeaning of my intelligence.

My Fi is telling me I don't have to stand for your bullshit because I made an honest and open exploration of what Fi means in that post, and all you could do was insult me without providing any rationalization of how I was misguided. I'm far from perfect, but at least I'm a better person than that.

Saying that you are in error is an insult now? You didn't provide any reasoning, just some vague observations about some ENFP friend of yours. I said based on my own experience I think you are in error. You had no hard logic to debate and therefore I don't owe you some in depth response with footnotes and quotes from experts. You have already been provided with a link to Jung's work on Personality Types and that's all the proof that is needed really to discuss his theories on Introverted and Extroverted feeling and what their clear definitions are.

You made an extreme statement that Fi doms put their own self above the people close to them and it is simply not true. You seem to be most upset with me for having the audacity to say I don't agree with you on that point without some lengthy explaination why. As I said, you offered no real proof yourself, except personal observation. I am offering my own direct experience in return, nothing more. Nothing more is warranted by your contribution.

Your hyperbole and attempts at using your Fe shaming on me always put a smile on my face. And your ending with the "I am a better person!" is classic. I think it is cute.

 

[Kiddo]

Whatever.

 

[heart]

Whatever.

I am curious as to why you are opposed to reading and trying to understand Jung's original definitions of Fi and Fe. That's the basis of all discussion on the topic and you seem to have an adversion to starting at that basic point.

My Te gets flabergasted by this and my Fi would really like to hear your explaination to understand you better.

 

[Kiddo]

I am curious as to why you are opposed to reading and trying to understand Jung's original definitions of Fi and Fe. That's the basis of all discussion on the topic and you seem to have an adversion to starting at that basic point.

I read them, and I don't think my interpretation is too far off of what was said.

And by interpretation I mean this post. http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/225438-post360.html

 

[heart]

I read them, and I don't think my interpretation is too far off of what was said.

And by interpretation I mean this post. http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/225438-post360.html

I can't really decide which would be superior to the other since they are so fundamentally different. If you are talking about identity, as in the character and attributes that are composed and asserted from a person's very entity, then Fi is superior. If you are talking about interdependence, as in how everything and everyone is connected and how those bonds are nurtured through self control and dedication to ideals, then Fe is superior.

Are you implying that an Fi dom is not self directed and self controlled?

 

[Kiddo]

Are you implying that an Fi dom is not self directed and self controlled?

I'm implying you can't have one without the other and be a sane (or at least very emotionally functional) human being.

 

[heart]

I'm implying you can't have one without the other and be a sane (or at least very emotionally functional) human being.

I simply think that you missed an important point in Jung's descriptions about the difference between Fi and Fe, being that Fi is more intensive than extensive, so an Fi will tend to focus their caring on a select fewer individuals and give a more intensive emotional bond to those few, when they are lucky enough to have someone be accepting of this. Sometimes it is hard to find people who want that kind of intense closeness.

It just struck me as being off the mark to say that an Fi will put themselves above the people they care about. If you believed that, you would have a hard time understanding any Fi dom you are truly close to in your life. That's all I was saying.

 

[cascadeco]

In the past, I think as soon as I got into a group context, I automatically was aware of myself through my awareness of how others perceived me; that really does screw with your head. Any sense of self was automatically jarred by other's perceptions, right or wrong, fair or unfair. The identity has to be stabilized within to some degree to withstand the pressures of external opinion.

This was kind of how I was up into my early 20's. I couldn't carve out my own identity, or rather was afraid to & didn't have the confidence, because I was so self-conscious of what others thought of me and how they perceived me. And I was aware of what I felt were huge differences between who I was and who everyone else around me was. (actually I didn't like how I knew they perceived me, which is why I started to switch things up in college, and then post-college I started to try to find the 'real me', and accept myself without being embarassed)

But the Fi thing gives validity and confidence, as you said, to make choices for one's own life and honor oneself as well. There's a sense that the inner identify must be true if the external relationships are to be true as well, and that ultimately we are each responsible for our own lives regardless of how others behave.

Yep. While I do think Fe shines through when I'm interacting with others, I also ultimately listen to my own inner voice these days, in terms of the direction I want to go in life. And I think I'm gaining more confidence in myself as a result, and I think it's highly possible to balance the Fe and Fi and integrate both into life. I still DO have quite a lot of anxiety/internal turmoil, though, when I know I'm doing something that will displease those close to me -- but I still do it because I can't not do it. And I know I am ultimately in charge of my own happiness and my own life - and I think when you boil things down enough, everyone is - regardless of Fe/Fi.

I have to admit I have a hard time relating to the seeming giant gap between Fe and Fi, and the whole topic of this thread -- I just don't see see them as being in opposition, or someone having only one, and none of the other. I think most people blend the two, and it's just a matter of degree. But that takes us out of strict mbti theory I suppose. [also I can still totally relate to pieces of both Fe and Fi as they've been defined throughout this board]

Also, most behavioral processes/decision points are far more complex than breaking it down to just one sole function -- there are a myriad of 'lesser' functions that would come into play for the person to reach their final conclusion (well, not in all cases, but in a more developed individual it would be the case). Sure, the dominant function might have the strongest hold, but the other functions would build onto it, and add a support system, if you will.


Oh, one thing that caught my eye -

Fi's can control themselves just fine via internal judgement. They may very well work with others in a interdepdent way, it is just they will not accept a popular tenent until they have run it through their own values and reasoning and accept it based on their own internal judgment. They can become just as devoted to an idea, it is just that their coming to value that idea is based on internal measures and not external pressures to conform.

I think the bolded piece is over-simplifying Fe as well, and doesn't get to the core of Fe either. Or else it might pertain more to some Fe-dom types, but not so much to others. I highly doubt most Fe's would accept a popular tenet either without doing their own reasoning/etc, which they would also balance against the interpersonal aspects of the situation. But I know your main intent w/ this example was to illustrate Fi's!!! So no biggie.