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Possible rule for determining one's MBTI Tertiary doppelganger

Mal12345

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You said ISTJ and ISFP share Se. That must have been a mistake on your part, then. Because I know why an ISTJ can look like an ISFP...Si/Fi loop with very high Fi, and looking less INFP even though they have Ne instead of Se, simply through the fact they're Si dom...which is what I already said many posts back.

Jung was an ISTP and based his theories on actual observations of patients. He at least began with reality.

Maybe the entire thing I wrote is mistaken, but I see some level of agreement at the start of this thread. The agreement doesn't relate to THEORY per se, but only to some people's actual experiences with the types. And I am partially working from experience to extrapolate the rest of the type tertiaries. That assumes (yes, I assume things too) the possibility of creating one theory to describe all types. But I don't mistake my own assumptions as factual.

I argued against the absurd idea that Jung was on ISTP back on PersN. I don't base my INTJ call on Jung's self-description as being a factually oriented person. If he really was fact-oriented, then *he should have produced the facts*. But all he produced was theory.
 

Mal12345

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<snop>
ESFJ in a test does not mean your function order is a model in the locker.
It only means you stand closest to the ESFJ, of the types.

You could have made great friends out of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff. I think the former was a 5 and the latter an 8.
 

Thalassa

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Maybe the entire thing I wrote is mistaken, but I see some level of agreement at the start of this thread. The agreement doesn't relate to THEORY per se, but only to some people's actual experiences with the types. And I am partially working from experience to extrapolate the rest of the type tertiaries. That assumes (yes, I assume things too) the possibility of creating one theory to describe all types. But I don't mistake my own assumptions as factual.

I argued against the absurd idea that Jung was on ISTP back on PersN. I don't base my INTJ call on Jung's self-description as being factually oriented. If he really was fact-oriented, then *he should have produced the facts*. But all he produced was theory.

Jung described himself as a scientist who had thinking and sensing upper most in his consciousness. I'm pretty certain he understood his own theory.

The Ni you're seeing is ISTP tert Ni.

What you described sounds like Keirsey bias. Keirsey almost got it, but not quite. Too broadly generalized. Starts as a stepping stone, but too much Ne generalization bogged down in meaningless Si details. Keirsey is INTP.
 

Mal12345

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Jung described himself as a scientist who had thinking and sensing upper most in his consciousness. I'm pretty certain he understood his own theory.

The Ni you're seeing is ISTP tert Ni.

What you described sounds like Keirsey bias. Keirsey almost got it, but not quite. Too broadly generalized. Starts as a stepping stone, but too much Ne generalization bogged down in meaningless Si details. Keirsey is INTP.

I see all that as PersN bias.
 

Thalassa

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I see all that as PersN bias.

That's funny since I was here first and read Jung and Keirsey apart from these websites.

My theory about Keirsey is my own. I'm not a fan, and I've read Please Understand Me II. He generalizes people in such a way that is too generalized on one hand, and too specific in another. All SJs are not white Protestant middle class 60 year olds from Nebraska. Keirsey offends me with his over simplification, it's Kindergarten personality theory. Not real school.
 

Mal12345

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That's funny since I was here first and read Jung and Keirsey apart from these websites.

My theory about Keirsey is my own. I'm not a fan, and I've read Please Understand Me II. He generalizes people in such a way that is too generalized on one hand, and too specific in another. All SJs are not white Protestant middle class 60 year olds from Nebraska. Keirsey offends me with his over simplification, it's Kindergarten personality theory. Not real school.

Being offended by such a stupid theory offends me.
 

Thalassa

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Being offended by such a stupid theory offends me.

Your assertions about SJ relgiousity and prudishness and INTJ IQ vs. ISTP IQ are as dumb as Keirsey, so I can't imagine why.
 

Mal12345

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Your assertions about SJ relgiousity and prudishness and INTJ IQ vs. ISTP IQ are as dumb as Keirsey, so I can't imagine why.

You're acting religious over some silly theories. I'm interested in the science of theories, and science often involves statistics. Any such statements I have made were based on empirically-based statistics. As a kind of religious person, you are equating science with absolutes. Your interpretation of everything I write is invalid, and is based on projecting your religious attitude in between the lines. I have also noticed in the past you ignored my observations regarding logic. That, too, is a religious attitude. Your hyper-religious, pseudo-scientific PersN stubbornness is the reason I have you on my PLONK list.
 

Thalassa

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You're acting religious over some silly theories. I'm interested in the science of theories, and science often involves statistics. Any such statements I have made were based on empirically-based statistics.

UGH. Such as? It's funny, you know, because while Si likes routine and order, I know two SJs who are staunch atheists, one since childhood who could never be convinced that such a thing was remotely probable.

As a kind of religious person, you are equating science with absolutes.

ORLY? AM I? That's funny because I'm not the one who says all SFJs are prudes, all SJs are religious and INTJs are more intelligent than ISTPs, because babies with low IQs cry more. You say some really fucked up crazy shit, bro, stuff that just makes you sound like an over-generalizing, socially retarded fool. Not saying that you are, but you sound like it.

Your interpretation of everything I write is invalid, and is based on projecting your religious attitude in between the lines. I have also noticed in the past you ignored my observations regarding logic. That, too, is a religious attitude. Your hyper-religious, pseudo-scientific PersN stubbornness is the reason I have you on my PLONK list.

PersN? WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Dude, you're nuts. You're just...nuts.
 

Mal12345

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UGH. Such as? It's funny, you know, because while Si likes routine and order, I know two SJs who are staunch atheists, one since childhood who could never be convinced that such a thing was remotely probable.



ORLY? AM I? That's funny because I'm not the one who says all SFJs are prudes, all SJs are religious and INTJs are more intelligent than ISTPs, because babies with low IQs cry more. You say some really fucked up crazy shit, bro, stuff that just makes you sound like an over-generalizing, socially retarded fool. Not saying that you are, but you sound like it.



PersN? WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Dude, you're nuts. You're just...nuts.

That is the stupidest thing I have read all day.

No, all week.

No, all YEAR.

Now go cry about it to your HACKER friends back at PersN. Maybe your HACKER friends back at PersN would like to take another crack at HACKING my accounts the way they did last time. What a wonderful forum your PersN is. Of course it's wonderful, it's run by a bunch of HACKERS.
 

wildcat

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Before I read the rest of this, I just want to point out one issue here, which you would say is a merely rhetorical point. But it isn't.

You say that S is not N, and that S and N stand on one continuum, like a straight, continuous line.

Let's create an analogy for this. The boiling point of water is not the freezing point of water. Yet they stand on one continuum, that is, the temperature of water. They don't stand at opposite sides of this continuum in reality, but let's just say that they do for arguments sake.

But granted that they do stand on opposite ends of the continuum, like north and south poles, you're not really describing this in terms analogous to temperatures. Lukewarm water is formed by mixing equal amounts of hot and cold, but when mixed together, it is neither one. The molecular activity slows down or speeds up to attain a point of equilibrium. In your scheme, however, N and S are not lost in any kind of blending. They remain distinct elements of personality. And that's how the idea of this as a continuum gets lost on me.

Not bad at all, mal12345.
Thank you :)

Let us take a close look how the circle goes.

I say the absolute function order for INTP is
Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe

What is the criterium of a circle? The ends must compound.

1. Introversion-Extraversion.

I E I E I E I E .. the ends compound.

2. The blend of J - P

J P P J J P P J .. the ends compound.

3. The blend of T - F (n for neutral)

T n n T F n n F .. the ends compound.

4. The blend of N - S

n N N n n S S n .. the ends compound ..


Four dichotomies? Basically only one.
We have only a horizontal circle?
We have also a vertical circle.

Is the vertical circle idiomatic with the horizontal circle?
It is.

Is there an overall symmetric blend?
There is.

INTP is not the entirety. It is but a part of the entirety.
 

Thalassa

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That is the stupidest thing I have read all day.

No, all week.

No, all YEAR.

Now go cry about it to your HACKER friends back at PersN. Maybe your HACKER friends back at PersN would like to take another crack at HACKING my accounts the way they did last time. What a wonderful forum your PersN is. Of course it's wonderful, it's run by a bunch of HACKERS.

Wow. Whoa. Your tin foil hat is out of control friend. Is this your trolling ploy to give me schizo crazy since I said you're nuts? Or are you really this nuts? :thelook: :wacko:

I don't even know what you're talking about now.

Besides, I thought I was on your ignore list.

You still didn't explain your theory.
 

Jaguar

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Maybe your HACKER friends back at PersN would like to take another crack at HACKING my accounts the way they did last time.


i-demand-an-explanation-baby-demotivational-poster.jpg
 

Mal12345

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Not bad at all, mal12345.
Thank you :)

Let us take a close look how the circle goes.

I say the absolute function order for INTP is
Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe

What is the criterium of a circle? The ends must compound.

1. Introversion-Extraversion.

I E I E I E I E .. the ends compound.

2. The blend of J - P

J P P J J P P J .. the ends compound.

3. The blend of T - F (n for neutral)

T n n T F n n F .. the ends compound.

4. The blend of N - S

n N N n n S S n .. the ends compound ..


Four dichotomies? Basically only one.
We have only a horizontal circle?
We have also a vertical circle.

Is the vertical circle idiomatic with the horizontal circle?
It is.

Is there an overall symmetric blend?
There is.

INTP is not the entirety. It is but a part of the entirety.

I think we all learned this last bit when we started to learn typology.

The difference between you and me, as INTPs, is that I have no desire to write over people's heads. So you won't see me using very many $5.00 words, or using plain 50 cent words in an overly obscure way.
 

jixmixfix

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huh. :yes: I like that... only, without consuming the time it may take for me to change all the types, i'll try to explain my thought. I would think the doppleanger would be one with similar functions all around.... like, instead of INTP (Ti/Ne/Si/Fe) with ISTJ (si/te/fi/ne) it would more be like INTP with ISFJ- jumbled functions (Si/Fe/Ti/Ne.) Know what I mean? I've always thought of strange similarities in the people with jumbled functions- one's tertiary is another one's primary and visa versa (and other top functions are the same.) . Ugh, this is coming out so strange, I hope it makes sense.

Just one more example to make me more comfortable with this post. INFP (Fi/Ne/Si/Te) with ISTJ (Si/Te/Fi/Ne)

sounds like good ol socionics to me.
 

lunalum

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You are correct. In Thomson's theory of Dom-Tert loops the loop of the ENTP is more similar to that of the ESFJ, and the loop of the ESTP to the ENFJ.

But Mal is taking into consideration that an Ne dom (such as ENTP) would still look a little more like an ENFJ if they were using a ton of Fe and skipping their Ti.

I don't think this is so much about a dominant-tertiary loop as it is a "tertiary doppelganger"... sort of like the personality that presents when presenting a huge excess of the tertiary. So, an ENTP showing excess of the tertiary may seem Fe dominant, but also still seem N (not otherwise specified) from the true dominant still showing through. So, kind of like an ENFJ.

What you described sounds like Keirsey bias. Keirsey almost got it, but not quite. Too broadly generalized. Starts as a stepping stone, but too much Ne generalization bogged down in meaningless Si details. Keirsey is INTP.

Oh no you didn't! :D
 

Thalassa

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I don't think this is so much about a dominant-tertiary loop as it is a "tertiary doppelganger"... sort of like the personality that presents when presenting a huge excess of the tertiary. So, an ENTP showing excess of the tertiary may seem Fe dominant, but also still seem N (not otherwise specified) from the true dominant still showing through. So, kind of like an ENFJ.

Yeah. That's what I said. But I wanted him to explain his theory from his own perspective, especially since he said ISFP and ISTJ were both Se types.

Instead I got all sorts of non-sense about hackers on PersN.

Mal really needs to take his tin foil hat off.


Oh no you didn't! :D

lol....
 

wildcat

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I think we all learned this last bit when we started to learn typology.

The difference between you and me, as INTPs, is that I have no desire to write over people's heads. So you won't see me using very many $5.00 words, or using plain 50 cent words in an overly obscure way.

I am so sorry I have hurt your feelings. :(
It was never my intention.
Regrets.

However.
Emotionality clouds the issue.
Clear logic wins the day.
 

wildcat

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Friends of Lenore, John and Linda.
Lend me your ears.

A sound theory winds back.
Give me the axioms.
I have not found them.
 
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