That's right everybody: it's ANOTHER fellow asking if he's ENTP or ENFP!! XD

[ChrisC99]

OH - also! If it is a known characterization that ENFPs possess that 'mental switch' that enables them to move between being silly and bursting with enthusiasm one moment, and serious and professional the next...do ENFPs in their serious mode essentially resemble ENTPs?

If so, it would seem ENFPs could easily be mistaken for ENTPs at times...while the reverse would be less true (i.e. an ENTP exuding ENFP-like sentimentality would be a more uncharacteristic sight).

 

[KDude]

Do you occassionally (and sometimes annoyingly) play career counselor and have decent people skills? ENFP. Or do people basically facepalm around you, and are you oblivious to the epic level of oddness that you have attained? ENTP.

 

[King sns]

OH - also! If it is a known characterization that ENFPs possess that 'mental switch' that enables them to move between being silly and bursting with enthusiasm one moment, and serious and professional the next...do ENFPs in their serious mode essentially resemble ENTPs?

If so, it would seem ENFPs could easily be mistaken for ENTPs at times...while the reverse would be less true (i.e. an ENTP exuding ENFP-like sentimentality would be a more uncharacteristic sight).

Hmm... I've been told I resemble ENTP's IRL, but normally that's when we're both in a relaxed, social setting. (Perhaps using a lot of Ne.) I think there is a distinct difference between the ENFP who is using Te (like in a work setting) - or even if not- I notice they are more on the humanistic, democratic end of things- can have visions and good suggestions but are largely focused on relationships. (Suspected) ENTP's are more about the changes themselves as far as I've seen.
I think ENFP's are skilled at "playing a role" if they have to, so can resemble a lot of types like a chameleon. ENTP may be more solid in their actions and decisions.

(This is just my own thought on it.)

^Oh, and I totally do that career counseling thing all the time like KDude said- non professional workers at my job often get bombarded with questions about what they are doing next and (probably unwanted, but gentle) advice about where they could go and what they could do. I annoy myself with it, but I'm usually genuinely curious about smart young non-professionals hopes and dreams.

 

[Eric B]

OH - also! If it is a known characterization that ENFPs possess that 'mental switch' that enables them to move between being silly and bursting with enthusiasm one moment, and serious and professional the next...do ENFPs in their serious mode essentially resemble ENTPs?

If so, it would seem ENFPs could easily be mistaken for ENTPs at times...while the reverse would be less true (i.e. an ENTP exuding ENFP-like sentimentality would be a more uncharacteristic sight).

NTP's have that too. It's from the Ne plus the Thinking. Which also is connected to the "informing" and"structure focused" communication in the Interaction Styles and temperament models. The "informing" part also tends to make one like people and want to avoid conflict despite the T/F preference.
In fact, NTP's are what I consider "enigmatic Types" (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-tm-other-personality-matrices/46096-enigmatic-types.html) because of that mix of people and task focus, while NFP's are more solidly people-focused (informing + motive).

So ENTP and ENFP are both not only same dominant function (and thus, considered by Jung to actually be the same type!), but also the same Interaction Style: Get Things Going, which is extraverted and informing. So you definitely fit that part.

The thing that counts most is "making decisions based on logic". The preference is based on what we prefer, moreso than all these behavioral descriptions. And when you do probe into people, your advice being more logical and less Feeling. The expressiveness would probably be more from the NeFe (and your descriptions of the "feeling you do show sound more extraverted), and the rational content you are giving them is shaped by an internal logic.
Your analyzing the whole thing also seems more T. You overall sound more like ENTP's I know here because of that. Tertiary Fe might provide the sentimentality people describe. It doesn't seem like an ENFP's tertiary Te, which I imagine would not be as focused. It also wouldn't be the most preferred decision making function. When we speak of the tertiary being "strong", it's generally a "relief" function, or to back up the dominant function by maintaining its dominant orientation; it doesn't replace the [primary] auxiliary.

Feeling in the nonpreferred position is very vulnerable. So your feelings can be easily hurt. Most Thinkers try to hide and disown this, of course. Leading to the typical descriptions of them being so "detached" and "unemotional". Inferior Feeling (such as an ITP) will be even further suppressed. Tertiary Feeling might be more visible as well, and more conscious.
I'm also thinking now, that while F's are more known for "getting their feelings hurt" more; I believe they tend to be more accepting of this (since Feeling is the more accepted function for them), while for Thinkers, when it does come to consciousness as being "hurt"; it is more negative, and they likely make more of an issue out of it (And thus will make the point to mention it as a possible indicator of F; and thus further throw them off. I went through this, and it made me seem to possibly be a Feeler. But the real key is that it is so negative; you don't want the feelings or emotions, and wish it would all go away.

It seems real ENFP's often wonder whether they are ESFP's (a few who really seemed solid have recently switched over to that type or ISFP). Even though it was commonly believed that people with T/F uncertainly are likely on the F side; it seems to be really be more the other way around, due to misconceptions about the T/F preference.
Also, in another personality system I often discuss, there's a third area of interaction similar to Interaction Styles, but dealing with deeper personal relations and affection. So that might make you more like that than others.

 

[ChrisC99]

Everyone wants me to be THEIR function!! I feel so...wanted and loved ;D (Personality type: magnetic! Or vain XD)

Thanks so much KDude, ShortnSweet and Eric B! Haha, I definitely play counselor to the point that people can become irritated if they didn't ask for the advice! But then, my antics also bring about more than the occasional facepalm...so can I answer 'all of the above'?? XD

That's exactly why the T/F dichotomy is particularly confusing to me: to me, the logical decision is always the one that makes the most PEOPLE happy in the end...and conversely, doing what's right and most helpful for others is the most logical choice in a group dynamic. So I find it difficult to separate a preference for one from the other!

Also, they often claim intraverted thinking will make one go by rules or conventions before feelings. But what if the prevailing norms don't seem logical to the ENTP - do many ENTPs also eschew convention?

So, the cognitive functions are where the gravy really lies in the roast, right? I suppose cognitive function theory could be envisioned in the context of 'steps' one makes in interacting with themself and their world: an ENTP for example will first make intuitions and ideas based on active interaction with their surroundings; second, process these through an internal 'logic filter' to make their decisions (does this sound logical?); and third, consult their tertiary as a 'backup' to consider how their actions will impact everyone's feelings around them.

An ENFP, meanwhile, would go through the same first step, but then process these through an internal 'feeling filter' to make their decisions (does this feel right?); and consult their tertiary to consider whether their actions are logical in the impact they will have outwardly.

Does this sound about right? (Why IS the secondary always internal, and the tertiary always external in extroverts in this model anyway? I mean, isn't it theoretically possible for someone's next thought after extraverted intuiting to be extraverted feeling or thinking? Or is the central concept based on the idea that an extrovert's next actions MUST follow some internal evaluations?? And couldn't it also be theoretically possible for a person to switch between the two based on mood or situation???

I am almost universally accused of the things that ENFPs seem to be known for, behaviors that would seem unusual for an ENTP: absolutely gushing sentiment, annoying people with over-the-top enthusiasm and sticking my nose in 'counseling' them (whether they ask for it or not!); crying over any sweet movie, and missing sleep over it for MONTHS if I so much as think a friend doesn't like me or that I hurt somebody. I don't relate to people who seem even remotely 'coldhearted', don't let go of emotional hurt or attachment easily, and I share my innermost feelings very readily. Does this suggest Fi, or Fe?

...Now on the other side of the psychological coin, I ALSO approach everything from the analytical standpoint, and all of my 'big' choices in life (i.e. the ones that aren't just for fun) are based on an internal framework, a long-term plan. To me logic is the greatest instrument for determining actions that will ultimately help people in the long run, and sometimes I can be detached and even seem a little cold giving fact-based advice when somebody's in emotional pain (although this is partly because their pain can hurt me so much that keeping detached makes me more helpful!). I work in medical science, which demands a great deal of putting emotion aside
(but then again, unlike many people who seem to only get into the field out of fascination, my main reason for getting into it WAS to help people like disabled friends I'd once had as well). Does this seem more suggestive of Ti, or Te?

I guess when people seem on the fence between these two, the problem is a strong tertiary which can resemble the secondary! So I guess in order to resolve whether I'm an ENTP for whom everything IS inwardly thinking-based but who juggles that with very high extraverted feeling - or an ENFP for whom everything is inwardly feeling-based but who balances those tendencies with very high extraverted thinking, what really has to be determined is which is truly first or internally-based, and which follows secondly as 'backup' relating to the external world!

 

[mrcockburn]

I think you sound like an ENFJ who can scrape up Ti. ENFJs have that "mother hen" thing going on, and they're very inquisitive, caring, and very big on having things thought-out and planned.

You seem to use F in an outward sense and in relation to people, which is 100% Fe. But I think it seems to almost lead you. Your posts are EFFERVESCENT with emotions, for one thing. And Ni-Se paired right next to each other can often seem like Ne, for extroverts. (It doesn't seem to work the same way with ISxPs for some reason, probably because they're more contained in general, and Ne is a very RRRAAAAA!!! function.

 

[Such Irony]

I'm also thinking now, that while F's are more known for "getting their feelings hurt" more; I believe they tend to be more accepting of this (since Feeling is the more accepted function for them), while for Thinkers, when it does come to consciousness as being "hurt"; it is more negative, and they likely make more of an issue out of it (And thus will make the point to mention it as a possible indicator of F; and thus further throw them off. I went through this, and it made me seem to possibly be a Feeler. But the real key is that it is so negative; you don't want the feelings or emotions, and wish it would all go away.

This is so true of me, it's not even funny. Periodically, I go through phases where I seriously doubt my type because I am sensitive and prone to have my feelings hurt. Yet, I'm not so 'accepting' of the hurt feelings as you describe. Occassionally, I'll be hurt and get worked up over seemingly nothing and I replay in my mind over and over how its not logical for me to overreact and how it matters so little in the whole large scheme of things and I hate myself for losing control emotionally. I'm guessing an F type would also feel hurt, yet be more likely to be of the mindset of, yes I felt hurt, such is life, it makes me human, and not have to over-analyze the situation?

 

[Eric B]

Yes, apparently. that last statement sounds like something my wife would say. She gets all emotional, it frazzles me, and she says something to the effect of "I'm not {yelling, screaming, arguing, fighting, upset, terribly angry, etc}; it's just my emotions".

We basically project how we would have to be feeling if we were reacting that way, at the other person, so then it is very negative to us. To them, it's basically "nothing".

(WHOAH; just noticed that you have ESFP up now! Is that a joke? I thought this whole point here would help confirm/affirm you as a Thinker, and you seemed to be acknowledging that).

 

[lunalum]

That's exactly why the T/F dichotomy is particularly confusing to me: to me, the logical decision is always the one that makes the most PEOPLE happy in the end...and conversely, doing what's right and most helpful for others is the most logical choice in a group dynamic. So I find it difficult to separate a preference for one from the other!

Yeah, going about it that way is a whole gigantic loop of confusion. Instead, the question of F and T is more about which world you prefer to operate: the humanistic world of human compexities, or more of the complexities and puzzles that try to strip away the whole human complexity element?

Like, I'm not too great at the whole counseling thing, because the sharing of the intense personal problems triggers primarily the response of "aaaaah get it away, find solutions for it now!" instead of being able to launch easily into a sort of feel-good inspirational montage like I have noticed from a lot of NFPs. I try to not launch immediately into the problem solving to not look like such an ice queen and instead whip together my genuine empathy into cute and cuddly comforting first.... but with this in itself it's easy to see that it's childlike extraverted feeling, and in the background I'm dealing with it in a more 'thinking' way. I would make such a horrible but interesting professional counselor that it would make good reality tv

Also, they often claim intraverted thinking will make one go by rules or conventions before feelings. But what if the prevailing norms don't seem logical to the ENTP - do many ENTPs also eschew convention?

Yes introverted thinking is the opposite of going by rules and conventions, it's all about figuring out what works by one's own judgement (in the technical flavor).It's sort of like going by 'rules' sometimes but they are rules that your internal judement has processed and given the OK stamp. Paired with the ultimate rebel function Ne and we're just as unconventional as our Fi cousins.

(Why IS the secondary always internal, and the tertiary always external in extroverts in this model anyway? I mean, isn't it theoretically possible for someone's next thought after extraverted intuiting to be extraverted feeling or thinking?

Basically, if both the secondary and primary functions are extraverted (or introverted), it creates an imbalanced person because then they are nearly entirely floating through the wind of external influence (or nearly unaffected by the external world). This link touches on how this would look in terms of disorders http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...dom-tertiary-loops-personality-disorders.html

I am almost universally accused of the things that ENFPs seem to be known for, behaviors that would seem unusual for an ENTP: absolutely gushing sentiment, annoying people with over-the-top enthusiasm and sticking my nose in 'counseling' them (whether they ask for it or not!); crying over any sweet movie, and missing sleep over it for MONTHS if I so much as think a friend doesn't like me or that I hurt somebody. I don't relate to people who seem even remotely 'coldhearted', don't let go of emotional hurt or attachment easily, and I share my innermost feelings very readily. Does this suggest Fi, or Fe?

This all reads ENFP to me.

...Now on the other side of the psychological coin, I ALSO approach everything from the analytical standpoint, and all of my 'big' choices in life (i.e. the ones that aren't just for fun) are based on an internal framework, a long-term plan. To me logic is the greatest instrument for determining actions that will ultimately help people in the long run, and sometimes I can be detached and even seem a little cold giving fact-based advice when somebody's in emotional pain (although this is partly because their pain can hurt me so much that keeping detached makes me more helpful!). I work in medical science, which demands a great deal of putting emotion aside

These sorts of things aren't necessarily Ti and could be Te.

You seem to use F in an outward sense and in relation to people, which is 100% Fe. But I think it seems to almost lead you. Your posts are EFFERVESCENT with emotions, for one thing.

Extraverted Fi-users can also be very outward with feeling. Effervescence is pretty much a trademark for ENFPs

And Ni-Se paired right next to each other can often seem like Ne, for extroverts. (It doesn't seem to work the same way with ISxPs for some reason, probably because they're more contained in general, and Ne is a very RRRAAAAA!!! function.

RAAAAAAAAAAA? Only in certain moments ENPs can be ridiculously ambiverted most of the time. I think you're talking about Se

 

[A window to the soul]

[MENTION=14236]ChrisC99[/MENTION]: You sure use a lot of [fluffy] words to make a simple point. I vote ENFP for you.

 

[Eric B]

It seems like ENFP is being suggested purely by generalized behaviors. Again, its the dom. Ne, the Get Things Going Interaction Style, and the tertiary Fe (plus personal background) that might produce all of this as well.
Another big clue I had glossed over:

To me logic is the greatest instrument for determining actions that will ultimately help people in the long run

This is the Parent complex. Parent (auxiliary) Ti. If it were tertiary, it would probably not be so much about helping people. And if extraverted, it would be more externally focused (probably not so much "to me..."; it would be more about what the external situation dictates).

 

[StrawMan]

[MENTION=14236]ChrisC99[/MENTION]: You sure use a lot of [fluffy] words to make a simple point. I vote ENFP for you.

I second that.

absolutely gushing sentiment, annoying people with over-the-top enthusiasm and sticking my nose in 'counseling' them (whether they ask for it or not!);

Sounds like ENFP. Although some over-the-top enthusiasm may be seen in ENTPs also.

 

[Spurgeon]

I agree with those who said ENTP, for the same reasons they cited. They all had to do with your reasoning process.

The arguments for ENFP were downright silly. They focused on irrelevant things like your being emotional and using "fluffy" language.

 

[lunalum]

It seems like ENFP is being suggested purely by generalized behaviors. Again, its the dom. Ne, the Get Things Going Interaction Style, and the tertiary Fe (plus personal background) that might produce all of this as well.

It could...

Another big clue I had glossed over:
This is the Parent complex. Parent (auxiliary) Ti. If it were tertiary, it would probably not be so much about helping people. And if extraverted, it would be more externally focused (probably not so much "to me..."; it would be more about what the external situation dictates).

Ah ok! Missed that part... it does sound aux-Ti'ish.

I agree with those who said ENTP, for the same reasons they cited. They all had to do with your reasoning process.

The arguments for ENFP were downright silly. They focused on irrelevant things like your being emotional and using "fluffy" language.

Yeah, I'm not claiming one way or another yet. I know as well as any.... I get claimed as NF a lot becaue of a sort of "fluffiness" to me but now I'm pretty sure it's just the dom-Ne and silly to blame some serious judging function for it Emotional, yes as far as experiencing emotion is not type-related. But the one point that had me slightly leaning ENFP is how he says he is so comfortable sharing his innermost feelings, and how willing on here he is to describe himself as this sort of gushingly sentimental counselor figure. Actually being able to know, much less express, innermost feeling, is more often a weak point for ENTPs (ime). And I would think it would take a whole lot of Fe development for an ENTP to be fully comfortable with playing the sentimental counselor role. Again, I'm nothing close to decisive on these things but those were the impressions I picked up so far.

I, for one, like the ENZP type.... leaves things at the essentials and has the added coolness of the letter Z. No need to ask for more

 

[ChrisC99]

WOW! I take off for a few days, and when I come back all this! All this wonderful discussion and insights - it's almost like watching an exciting HORSERACE of psychological extrapolations! "And coming into the lead we have ENTP...no, wait, ENFP is making a run, ENFP is pressing quick into the lead...and oh, ENTP retakes the lead...what a THRILLING race this is, ladies and gentle-psych buffs!" XD (And best of all, it's all about ME! Ha, just kidding...seriously, all of this does help me to learn - and us collectively discuss - more about the types and theory in general ;D)

ENZP? Why, that definitely has a snazzy ring to it LunaLuminosity - I like it! Sounds like it could be a line right out of the Matrix: "Some think. Some feel. But I...Z!" *Puts sunglasses on* (I know that has nothing whatsoever to do with The Matrix...but just go with it XD)

Hmm, so you're essentially suggesting that using logic as a personal premise for extrinsic humanitarian motives implies Fe based on Ti. That would seem to be a valid argument - very nice observation there, Eric B!

Here's another finished paper plate to feed our campfire, though: I was recently reading about the differing way ENTPs versus ENFPs are supposed to act in romantic life. The former is supposedly able to detach from someone very readily once they no longer stimulate them intellectually, and are reputedly hard to get to know as they prefer not to share their innermost feelings readily; in an emotionally trying time they'll try to make a joke instead. I, on the other hand, share ALL of my innermost feelings with somebody within the first 5 minutes; 'wearing my heart on my sleeve' is the phrase people have used to describe my behavior. I smother a love interest with affection right in front of everybody (sometimes to their embarrassment :/)...because, well, shouldn't we? And even though I date a LOT of people, I haven't settled on somebody because I have this very idealized view of 'the one' - someone whose heart will beat in tune with mine like no other, where you can almost hear the music. And while having an intellectual match in somebody would be nice, it's not the most important thing to me. I have a fear of settling with somebody and then leaving them if they don't turn out to be the one (though I admittedly do have a habit of 'leading people on', writing them poetry and wanting to say 'I love you' one moment, and then saying 'no no, I meant let's just be friends!' the next)...and once somebody loses interest in me, even if it's someone who's mistreated me, I have EXTREME difficulty letting go. I'm characteristically 'clingy' in that respect. I wouldn't think any ENTP would be known for these, however prominent (or immature!) their tertiary!

On the other side of the coin, while I'm asking whether there are any ENTPs with my emotional behavior let me ask this also: are there any ENFPs who display my sort of analytical bent? As has been pointed out, my posts here alone (however stream-of-consciousness and oozing with fluff!) DO seem to reflect a thinking-based way of evaluating questions. BUT, doesn't Te (as one might see in a tertiary-strong ENFP) ALSO by definition move one to systematize their surroundings and use reason to interact with their outside world (or even use a logic-heavy approach when giving somebody counsel, for example)? Or would that kind of analyzing almost invariably derive from the intraverted thinking function? Alternatively, could Ne-dominance alone account for that analytical nature?

 

[ChrisC99]

OH! One last thing: I'm not a perfectionist. I don't give a hoot if people pronounce or spell a word incorrectly or what have you...while I believe in logic as an instrument to solve the world's problems, I just don't feel it's important in day-to-day interactions (it's really to-mah-to, not to-may-to? WHO CARES!). I DO, however, consider feelings important in everything I say or do: I never, ever say something if I think it may hurt people, and I struggle to be careful in my wording for just that reason (though I admittedly CAN offend people by saying too much or being too outspoken at times too!).

While concern for the feelings of those around me seems to imply Fe...does the fact that my everyday interactions invariably have to pass through a 'feeling filter' but not a 'logic filter' before I undertake them, so to speak, imply Fi over Ti?

Thanks agaaaaiiiiiiin!!

 

[Spurgeon]

I would recommend taking this Cognitive Development Survey: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/develop_old.html

Unfortunately the "submit" button doesn't work, but it's easy to calculate yourself. And it shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes.

It definitely helped me decide between ENTP and ENFP.

 

[ChrisC99]

Ah, that was an excellent instrument for shedding valuable insight there, Spurgeon - thankya oh so kindly!!

Some of the questions in the link were initially confusing to me, and it at once seemed as thought BOTH of the extraverted judging functions suited me, but niether in the intraverted sense. Alas, further reading on cognitive function theory and discussions thereof revealed valuable clues.

When an extraverted intuitive-dominant has thinking as their auxiliary (or 'helper function' as I like to call it) the way an ENTP does, then the inward, personal thoughts that follow or 'back up' the ideas they're bursting with via interaction with the outside world are impersonal: they're based on patterns, organization. Yes, the extraverted feeling tertiary can vary from a mere afterthought to a well-developed mode of interaction and expression, depending on the person...but that intraverted pattern-seeking auxiliary will still be the root basis for what an ENTP does, one way or the other. For an ENTP, feelings are justified by impersonal logic, and what's deemed appropriate for the group at large is more important than individual feelings.

It was an easy misidentification for me to make, designating intraverted thinking as my auxiliary, since both extraverted intuitives by definition live to generate ideas first and foremost. But lo and behold...that is not how my mind works. Once I've achieved the thrill of interacting with the world and coming up with glistening new ideas, the personal thoughts that ensue based on that are not impersonal and detached, they do not seek factual patterns above all else. They are an elaborate system of values defining and redefining why I do everything I'm about to do, who it will ultimately help in the long run. Accepted conventions mean nothing to me: what's right has a deep moral base, derived from putting myself in the other person's shoes. Conversely when I seek approval from others, it's also to feed my personal feelings; there is no logical base. I don't seek facts or systematize them for their own sake, only to achieve a desired end. I systematize and apply logic in the outside world (Te) only to serve the pursuit of a purpose to which I attribute personal value...and as the puerile function I can tend to neglect the mundane details of systematizing. The reasoning is not self-justified or done for its own sake, as an intraverted auxiliary would be; it's done to serve the pursuit of ideas (Ne) and the sense of what matters are of personal importance to myself or others at the individual level (Fi) - and THAT is the function that is self-justified.

Well then it's settled - I AM officially certified for ENFP-hoooood! In this certification I hereby reserve the right to be hyperactive, zany, and experience flights of insight before I even know what to do with them XD...but thoroughly love every step of the way!

*Bangs gavel*

Aww, thank you all so much!! This was fun...I'll MISS this forum discussion! Now I think I'll go see what OTHER threads there are to explore/create

 

[Spurgeon]

You'll be back to questioning it again. Mark my words.

 

[ChrisC99]

Of course I will! Delighted to see you're getting to know me from my posts ;D Or maybe it's just because I'm a characteristically indecisive ol' ENFP...I mean ENTP...I mean, I mean...XD

I'm going to go hit on some INFJs now, ttyl!