Which FP?

[Elfboy]

I started questioning the Si thing after reading Beebe's theory about Opposing Personality Complex...Si is supposed to be subconscious? Well it isn't in me. So wouldn't it make sense if Si was my Opposing Personality complex (5th function in Beebe) rather than an unconscious inferior?

Actually I don't tend to have huge communication issues with most of the ENFPs on here, so whatever there is between you and I may have nothing to do with type. Think of Saturned too...she's INFP and I've also seen communication differences between you and her.

Of course my mother is ESFP and we can get in outrageous arguments. Same with ExFP sister. But then in a way I understand both of them on some level, and think I have more functional similarities to them than my ENFJ sister, although I hardly ever argue with her...it's because she's ENFJ and avoids arguments, and is a very "placating" communicator.

It could be a clash of similar mindsets. Or it could be because of individual differences.

fair enough. saturned really does hate me lol

 

[Rail Tracer]

I'd say EXFP, but it is just based on a gut reaction. I just don't see you as an IXFP.

The way I come in contact with you always speaks somewhere along the lines of Ne/Se.

As for which of the two? Not enough contact with you to figure which one. But with my minimum contact, ESFP is possible.

 

[Thalassa]

fair enough. saturned really does hate me lol

You should know that I see similar qualities in you to myself which is why I'm dead set convinced you're ExFP.

Confrontational stubborn people will ten to grapple with other confrontational stubborn people. That's why I've openly argued more with my mom and ExFP sister, and yet on some level feel like they understand me better than ENFJ...I don't argue with ENFJ as much, but feel like she's trying to correct me, coerce me, is quietly judging me, and is sometimes just getting on my goddam nerves. But she's easy to not argue with, just like my ENFJ bff...that doesn't mean that I don't get irritated with my ENFJ sister though or that I feel like we're "the same." Then of course my ISFJ sister is the easiest to get along with of all of us, unless you fuck with her family or loved ones, then she'll fucking cut you. So funny because she's usually seeming kind of quiet, maybe a bit fragile, and very giving.

Do you see what I'm saying about how two similar people can clash, because of temperament combined with individual differences in world view? To me arguing and honesty is normal and healthy, to a degree, you know not like all the time IRL, of course.

 

[Elfboy]

You should know that I see similar qualities in you to myself which is why I'm dead set convinced you're ExFP.

Confrontational stubborn people will ten to grapple with other confrontational stubborn people. That's why I've openly argued more with my mom and ExFP sister, and yet on some level feel like they understand me better than ENFJ...I don't argue with ENFJ as much, but feel like she's trying to correct me, coerce me, is quietly judging me, and is sometimes just getting on my goddam nerves. But she's easy to not argue with, just like my ENFJ bff...that doesn't mean that I don't get irritated with my ENFJ sister though or that I feel like we're "the same." Then of course my ISFJ sister is the easiest to get along with of all of us, unless you fuck with her family or loved ones, then she'll fucking cut you. So funny because she's usually seeming kind of quiet, maybe a bit fragile, and very giving.

Do you see what I'm saying about how two similar people can clash, because of temperament combined with individual differences in world view? To me arguing and honesty is normal and healthy, to a degree, you know not like all the time IRL, of course.

oh don't worry, I don't take it personally it just seems we'd understand each other a little better if we were both NFP. perhaps I'm wrong though, as I said, I'm a bit on the fence

 

[Robopop]

Maybe considering which function is your inferior(Si or Ni) would make choosing a "best fit" easier, do you have Si or Ni problems. Like for me as a Ti dominant, I have some issues with unwarranted social expectations and responsibilities(Fe), it feels like an intrusion on my personal freedom and sometimes it does not match up with my idea of what is fair. Ti is like "how can they expect me to do/or agree with this(esp if I find it arbitrary) when I myself don't place the same expectations on other people"* this revels the very personal nature of Ti too.

 

[Xenon]

I recall a few months ago you seemed confident of ENFP, and you were saying you hadn't understood cognitive functions before and that was why you were confused, but since learning more about them you realized you were an Ne user. You also said you were "110% sure" you were N. (I found the thread I was thinking of; it's DisneyGeeks thread here).

Do you recall what it was you read about Ne that made you certain you had it, and what made you change your mind?

 

[wolfy]

I think e*fp, I lean towards esfp but aren't that sure. At the end of the day that's close enough. Everyone needs one letter...

 

[Eric B]

I started questioning the Si thing after reading Beebe's theory about Opposing Personality Complex...Si is supposed to be subconscious? Well it isn't in me. So wouldn't it make sense if Si was my Opposing Personality complex (5th function in Beebe) rather than an unconscious inferior?

You might be confusing four-process theory with eight-process theory. The inferior is initially unconscious (hence, four-process theory regarding it as "the shadow"), but is on the "ego-syntonic" side, and does gradually become more conscious. (Which four-process theorists would call "integrating the shadow).

In the eight-process model of Beebe and Berens, it is considered to lie on the "boundary" of the unconscious. The Opposing Personality is right on the other side of this boundary. It's the backup of the dominant, so it can enter consciousness a lot.

I had figured, regarding Ni, that both the ESFP and ENFP, which are so similar on the surface, might end up similar in their "use" of Ni. So the same would hold true for Si.

There is also the ship model, which suggests that the inferior comes out as the weakest function. (Supported my many people's Keys 2 Cognition results). This is likely from its being the vulnerable area which the feelings of inferiority come through. So it's not about "using" it (in the behavioral sense), and thus it doesn't appear to have much strength when judged in terms of behavior.

That would suggest against ENFP. But then, these things are subject to individual experience. I remember saying this recently, and will have to look over that conversation again.
For neither type would it normally be as strong as you make it sound (unless as an ENFP, you're past mid-life and really mature; approaching individuation), and it's not preferred (you're definitely not SJ), so it must be something unusually developed. (Unless you're mistaking what Si really is).
But for now, as someone else asked, how is your Ni?

 

[Santosha]

Here are some of my thoughts, just throwing them out..

I have wondered before if an intuitive can take on learned sensing communication when they have been raized by strong sensors. It would seem that at an early age the intuitive might realize a barrier, but an EF may find it especially difficult to have a limitation like this, spending tremendous time bridging the gap and learning how to communiate thoughts in a more concrete manner?

The other day I was reading a study done on sensors and intuitives, this is probably all common knowledge, but when broken into groups and given certain tasks, huge differences were observable. When asked to describe an apple.. the sensors almost always touched, smelled, bit into, and some even completely consumed it.. then described those sensory traits. THe intuitives always put the apple back in perfect form, and would describe it metaphorically, symbolically, or in relation to other things. When sensors were asked to look out a window and describe what was out there. they'd describe in detail "a man walking by with a blue coat, 3 houses in the distance with triangle roofs," etc. When intuitives were asked to look out a window then later report what they saw.. it was "an overcast day perfect for hiking, the sun was muted like it is in October, a house in the distance I've always imagined who lives there" like i said, probably common knowledge.

I would look at inferior si and inferior ni.. supposedly in ESFP's inferior Ni can occasionally manifest as deep mistrust of others, even close family and friends. When ESFP get's intouch with inferor Ni they are VERY uncomortable, because they begin thinking that all is not as it seems, but it causes them to entirely lose hold of the world as they have perceived it.. it's like there entire understanding of what is real is stripped from them, with a strange sense that there is more but being unable to pinpoint what.

Do you notice yourself casting out unrelated, random ideas to see what they catch and bring back? I've always thought of Ne as a Boomerang..

 

[King sns]

Eh, I don't know. Could be one or the other extravert. I don't think it matters. Intellectual does not equal N in my opinion at all. For me, my Ne tendencies came out in the opposite of intellectual. It had nothing to do with memorizing anything, knowing anything, reading books about somebody else's. It is a dreamy function, it wants to come up with theories on it's own, it has no use for old information. The Ne in me is the one seeing pictures of things that it didn't learn before, it dreams about things, it helps me stare out the window, play random mental movies, it helps me doodle, hum, play an instrument by ear, tell exaggerated stories that color the truth differently, write fiction despite not being a big reader in the past. It learns differently, it teaches differently. Helps me see the big picture and work backwards to fill in the details. It's literally a space cadet working with little information to create dreams. It's not concerned with what is fact or already discovered, right or wrong. It's concerned with thoughts and opinions of it's own making. (Downfall is obviously that it has no basis in reality.) I am still confused about how this gets confabulated with intellectual development, (the reading and attempted connection of past theories.) Sounds like an urban myth to me.

The Se, helps me relate to the physical world, take things at face value. It doesn't assume anything, it doesn't attach unnecessary meaning to what it sees. It takes in the physical world in vivid detail, reacts to sudden events quickly, pay attention, enjoy every moment. I think Se is associated with "fun" because when you are stuck in the moment all the time, the moment in the external world needs to be made more enjoyable, so the Se dom will create that enjoyable atmosphere to make the world a little bit easier for the moment. Both functions seem to start at the present and work forward, which has it's downfalls.

(I'm referencing what I perceive the differences are, since I can't speak for anyone else.) I don't see why you can't meld the two or vacillate between the two, (besides the fact that the theory doesn't allow for that.)

 

[Thalassa]

I recall a few months ago you seemed confident of ENFP, and you were saying you hadn't understood cognitive functions before and that was why you were confused, but since learning more about them you realized you were an Ne user. You also said you were "110% sure" you were N. (I found the thread I was thinking of; it's DisneyGeeks thread here).

Do you recall what it was you read about Ne that made you certain you had it, and what made you change your mind?

Yes I can tell you why I changed my mind. Because I tend to always refer to experiences I have had and people I know instead of speaking in abstracts. Although I like theory, I tend to illustrate theoretical concepts in a way that applies directly to people. In fact, when I was a teenager I realized I hated any subject that I couldn't direct relately back to life and people. I'm absolutely certain I am FP (I could absolutely not be FJ, Ti is my most rejected function, like I find Ti unbearable, and my morality is pretty obviously Fi...I found after reading his book, that I couldn't even possibly be a J In the Keirsey sense, I am one of the most procrastinating, late, erratic people on the face of the earth. I can also be pretty inconsistent with my emotional expression, getting really mad, and then getting over it and forgiving quickly or apologizing...which is a more FP thing.)

I'm not terribly abstract, I'm just theoretical. I also don't imagine alternative endings when I read books, my favorite type of novels to read are things I can "experience" with good atmosphere, characters, and sensory imagery.

The primary thing that made me think ENFP over ESFP is the "introverted extrovert" thing...which someone suggested could actually be explained by being ISFP, because they are the extroverted introvert. If you knew me IRL you'd see what I'm talking about. I can be VERY talkative, very straight-forward, very experimental, but I need plenty of time to myself and I'm perfectly fine on my own. I'm quite independent and I think I love my freedom above all else.

But then apparently the people-crazy ultra-extrovert ESFP is a stereotype, and I could still be an Se dom without fitting that stereotype? I don't know. I've done a lot of outlandish things which seem extroverted, and I'm quite free and expressive, but I don't think I'm people-oriented in the way an Fe dom is...I tend to think of ExFJs as actually being the most people oriented, I don't know.

 

[Thalassa]

The Ne in me is the one seeing pictures of things that it didn't learn before, it dreams about things, it helps me stare out the window, play random mental movies,

Inner visualization can actually be Se. I read an article on another personality site that people with Se tend to visualize what they're reading very clearly in their head. It also explains why there's so many SP visual artists.

it helps me doodle, hum, play an instrument by ear, tell exaggerated stories that color the truth differently,

I don't see how this is Ne rather than Se. Playing an instrument by ear especially seems very Se, and both ENFPs and ESFPs are known for telling exaggerated stories. I read someone's post on here that ENFPs do it to make themselves look smarter and ESFPs do it to entertain people...but that's probably an exaggeration.

write fiction despite not being a big reader in the past.

I've found that a lot of fiction writers are actually Sensors. Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald were both SP fiction writers who are considered literary giants.

It learns differently, it teaches differently. Helps me see the big picture and work backwards to fill in the details. It's literally a space cadet working with little information to create dreams. It's not concerned with what is fact or already discovered, right or wrong. It's concerned with thoughts and opinions of it's own making. (Downfall is obviously that it has no basis in reality.) I am still confused about how this gets confabulated with intellectual development, (the reading and attempted connection of past theories.) Sounds like an urban myth to me.

The Se, helps me relate to the physical world, take things at face value. It doesn't assume anything, it doesn't attach unnecessary meaning to what it sees. It takes in the physical world in vivid detail, reacts to sudden events quickly, pay attention, enjoy every moment. I think Se is associated with "fun" because when you are stuck in the moment all the time, the moment in the external world needs to be made more enjoyable, so the Se dom will create that enjoyable atmosphere to make the world a little bit easier for the moment. Both functions seem to start at the present and work forward, which has it's downfalls.

(I'm referencing what I perceive the differences are, since I can't speak for anyone else.) I don't see why you can't meld the two or vacillate between the two, (besides the fact that the theory doesn't allow for that.)

I don't know I think you could just be very intelligent and have Se, and good development of Ni.

I DON'T KNOW.

The easiest functions for me to understand are the judging functions: Fi, Fe, Ti, Te. I can tell those apart so easily in anyone, and describe to you exactly what they are.

As far as the perceiving functions go, I can grasp Si better than the other three. I have a hard time telling Ne and Se apart, and it took me forever to grasp the meaning of Ni. I've seen supposed Ni users running around who can't even explain Ni.

 

[Thalassa]

Maybe considering which function is your inferior(Si or Ni) would make choosing a "best fit" easier, do you have Si or Ni problems. Like for me as a Ti dominant, I have some issues with unwarranted social expectations and responsibilities(Fe), it feels like an intrusion on my personal freedom and sometimes it does not match up with my idea of what is fair. Ti is like "how can they expect me to do/or agree with this(esp if I find it arbitrary) when I myself don't place the same expectations on other people"* this revels the very personal nature of Ti too.

Here are some of my thoughts, just throwing them out..

I have wondered before if an intuitive can take on learned sensing communication when they have been raized by strong sensors. It would seem that at an early age the intuitive might realize a barrier, but an EF may find it especially difficult to have a limitation like this, spending tremendous time bridging the gap and learning how to communiate thoughts in a more concrete manner?

The other day I was reading a study done on sensors and intuitives, this is probably all common knowledge, but when broken into groups and given certain tasks, huge differences were observable. When asked to describe an apple.. the sensors almost always touched, smelled, bit into, and some even completely consumed it.. then described those sensory traits. THe intuitives always put the apple back in perfect form, and would describe it metaphorically, symbolically, or in relation to other things. When sensors were asked to look out a window and describe what was out there. they'd describe in detail "a man walking by with a blue coat, 3 houses in the distance with triangle roofs," etc. When intuitives were asked to look out a window then later report what they saw.. it was "an overcast day perfect for hiking, the sun was muted like it is in October, a house in the distance I've always imagined who lives there" like i said, probably common knowledge.

I would look at inferior si and inferior ni.. supposedly in ESFP's inferior Ni can occasionally manifest as deep mistrust of others, even close family and friends. When ESFP get's intouch with inferor Ni they are VERY uncomortable, because they begin thinking that all is not as it seems, but it causes them to entirely lose hold of the world as they have perceived it.. it's like there entire understanding of what is real is stripped from them, with a strange sense that there is more but being unable to pinpoint what. Do you notice yourself casting out unrelated, random ideas to see what they catch and bring back? I've always thought of Ne as a Boomerang..

In another thread last night I posted a little bit about this huge existentialist crisis I had in my early twenties. I was actually about 23 or 24, but my entire perception of the world shifted, and because of the perception shift I suddenly became very anxious and even developed agoraphobia for a while. Of course, I've long adjusted to that now, and I'd never thought of it in these terms, but that traumatic perception shift and my exaggerated reaction to it could easily have been emerging Ni...because up until that point I was quite adventurous and engaged in risky behavior, I'm talking about crashing cars and physically hitting people...and suddenly in the realization that A) there potentially is no god and B) I'm mortal, I totally freaked out...I also had an experience in my mid-twenties (more like 25, 26) where I began to realize that things weren't going to go the way I thought they were "supposed" to go, is the only way I can explain it. It does sound a bit like suddenly realizing the world isn't at all what you thought it was and getting freaked out by it. Fortunately, I've gone through all of that now and am better for it, not just past it, but I think I matured because of it.

I also went through a phase when I was an adolescent of believing I was psychic or having special knowledge, which apparently can be a manifestation of inferior Ni, by ascribing mystical meaning to gut feelings and thinking you see things that other people don't.

 

[rav3n]

Not sure what you are Marm but Si appears to play a strong role and your decision maker is F-based.

 

[Glycerine]

Only thing I am sure of is not ISFP.

 

[Thalassa]

You might be confusing four-process theory with eight-process theory. The inferior is initially unconscious (hence, four-process theory regarding it as "the shadow"), but is on the "ego-syntonic" side, and does gradually become more conscious. (Which four-process theorists would call "integrating the shadow).

In the eight-process model of Beebe and Berens, it is considered to lie on the "boundary" of the unconscious. The Opposing Personality is right on the other side of this boundary. It's the backup of the dominant, so it can enter consciousness a lot.I had figured, regarding Ni, that both the ESFP and ENFP, which are so similar on the surface, might end up similar in their "use" of Ni. So the same would hold true for Si.

There is also the ship model, which suggests that the inferior comes out as the weakest function. (Supported my many people's Keys 2 Cognition results). This is likely from its being the vulnerable area which the feelings of inferiority come through. So it's not about "using" it (in the behavioral sense), and thus it doesn't appear to have much strength when judged in terms of behavior.

That would suggest against ENFP. But then, these things are subject to individual experience. I remember saying this recently, and will have to look over that conversation again.
For neither type would it normally be as strong as you make it sound (unless as an ENFP, you're past mid-life and really mature; approaching individuation), and it's not preferred (you're definitely not SJ), so it must be something unusually developed. (Unless you're mistaking what Si really is).
But for now, as someone else asked, how is your Ni?

I need to address this individually. I am not past mid-life and I am not exceptionally mature (to the contrary, I am definitely not mature in the sense of having adult Si.)

I don't mean to make it sound like a have a bunch of Si, because I don't. I'm bad with detail work and that which is linear. I definitely do not have Si as a major function...I am just saying that I am conscious of it...either that, or I'm actually SFP, and I just think I'm conscious of Si because I'm actually an Se type.

 

[CzeCze]

Hey Marm, not to shift the focus away from your thread, but [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] and [MENTION=8585]InvisibleJim[/MENTION] (your favorite!) seem to think I am ESFP. So we can both hop on that ESFP party bus together. First round of margaritas is on me!

 

[Thalassa]

Hey Marm, not to shift the focus away from your thread, but [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] and [MENTION=8585]InvisibleJim[/MENTION] (your favorite!) seem to think I am ESFP. So we can both hop on that ESFP party bus together. First round of margaritas is on me!

MMmmm margaritas! Frozen with salt!

<----- us dancing

 

[InvisibleJim]

Jim and his Shenanigans!

Hey Marm, not to shift the focus away from your thread, but [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] and [MENTION=8585]InvisibleJim[/MENTION] (your favorite!) seem to think I am ESFP. So we can both hop on that ESFP party bus together. First round of margaritas is on me!

Oh contrairé, I merely pointed out the obvious reason as to how one makes the distinction. However, I do officially think you are simply *kittens* (since you have thousands of posts on a typology forum and don't know the difference AND since you can't read posts) rather than just plain ridiculous. This is not a type specific trait.

You can cry into your cold soup about it later.

 

[Thalassa]

Jim get out of my thread and go have a pint or something. Lighten up.