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MBTI with more axis and higher resolution?

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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I was pondering the possibility of sub-axis to the MBTI cognitive functions. In particular I have wondered about the Feeling function. I have struggled with determining if my Fi or Fe is stronger because I have certain aspects of both, and lack certain aspects of both. The following is a hypothesis which shows two axis instead of one. Such things could be applied to the other functions by separating the concept of "i" and "e" into the point of reference (the vantage point from which the system is viewed) and the location of the dynamic system, which may not have to be both internal or external. This idea could possibly be applied to the other functions, but this is the only one for which I have given any thought in applying the idea. I find myself clearly in one quadrant and wonder how this applies to others. What do you think of this hypothesis and/or have you come across other attempts at a higher resolution image of cognitive functions which create clear sub-axis of some sort?

____________________________________________________________________________________
Feeling

Definition of terms (the italicized portions are from dictionary.com)

Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

Intrapersonal = Existing or occurring within the individual self or mind. These are the dynamics within the internal system of an individual.

Interpersonal = pertaining to the relations between persons. These are the dynamics in the external systems of people.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Four Quadrants

Introverted Intrapersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within the self. This focus is on self-awareness.

Introverted Interpersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between others and self. This focus is on harmony with others.

Extroverted Intrapersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within individuals outside the self. This focus is on individual empathy.

Extroverted Interpersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between individuals outside of the self. This focus is on hosting, caretaking, and maintaining the community.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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The following may need revision or to just be tossed. This is essentially a first draft but demonstrates a similar concept of two axis 1. Point of reference 2. Location of system. I was mostly curious if the previous concept was applicable to Thinking. I did invent a couple of words. ha. If the concept does not apply to Thinking, then there may not be justification for applying it to Feeling since the two exist on the same axis.

_________________________________________________________________
Thinking

Definitions

Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

Intra-thought = Existing or occurring within the individual self or mind. These are the dynamics within the internal system of ideas and original thought.

Inter-thought = pertaining to the relations between persons. These are the dynamics in the external systems of ideas and established thought.

_________________________________________________________________
Four Quadrants

Introverted Intra-thought

An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of ideas that occur within the self. This focus is on original thought from within self. This internal framework of reason is the point of reference for all thought.

Introverted Inter-thought

An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of thought that occur between original and external ideas. This focus is integrating new ideas into established concepts.

Extroverted Intra-thought
An external point of reference concerned with original ideas generated outside the self. This focus readily accepts and adapts to new systems of thought discovered outside self. It assumes an internal framework, but this may be constructed outside of self and still be readily grasped.

Extroverted Inter-thought

An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between external systems of ideas. This focus is based on solidifying relationships between existing ideas.
 

aeon

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I like what you have presented here, toonia, and in it I see a parallel to Ken Wilber's four-quadrant model as part of his Integral Theory of Consciousness.


cheers,
Ian
 

Wandering

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Four Quadrants

Introverted Intrapersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within the self. This focus is on self-awareness.

Introverted Interpersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between others and self. This focus is on harmony with others.

Extroverted Intrapersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within individuals outside the self. This focus is on individual empathy.

Extroverted Interpersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between individuals outside of the self. This focus is on hosting, caretaking, and maintaining the community.
I like it!

I'm not sure I've properly digested it yet, but I can see myself as Introverted Interpersonal: my point of reference is within me, but my concern is about others.

I can also see my ENFJ husband as Extroverted Intrapersonal, and I wonder if this is one reason he tends to see himself as Introverted? His focus tends to go inward, but his point of reference is clearly, in my eyes at least, external.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Cool. Can you elaborate on extraverted inter vs. intra thought?
 

cascadeco

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Four Quadrants

Introverted Intrapersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within the self. This focus is on self-awareness.

Introverted Interpersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between others and self. This focus is on harmony with others.

Extroverted Intrapersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within individuals outside the self. This focus is on individual empathy.

Extroverted Interpersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between individuals outside of the self. This focus is on hosting, caretaking, and maintaining the community.

I like these four quadrants quite a lot, and breaking it up in this manner applies well to me!! I think both my Introverted Intra- and Interpersonal are pretty high, and I'd say they tie. My Extroverted Intra- would be somewhat high as well, although I'm not sure. However, I think I have almost zero Extroverted Interpersonal, which would be why when I take cognitive function tests, or even mbti tests, I tend to score lower on Fe. It is also possibly why I would test as a 'T' when I was younger...because many of the online tests seem to hone in more on Extroverted Interpersonal feeling (based on your description) when determining ones' F-ness. ;-) Of the Thinking quadrants, I believe my Introverted Intra-thought would be highest, but that's a tossup w/ Introverted Inter-.
 

kelric

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I find myself clearly in one quadrant and wonder how this applies to others. _____________________________________________
Four Quadrants

Introverted Intrapersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within the self. This focus is on self-awareness.

Introverted Interpersonal
An internal point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between others and self. This focus is on harmony with others.

Extroverted Intrapersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur within individuals outside the self. This focus is on individual empathy.

Extroverted Interpersonal
An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between individuals outside of the self. This focus is on hosting, caretaking, and maintaining the community.

I like the distinctions that you've made, particularly for feeling - they seem valid, and as you said, I find myself falling predominantly in one category (Introverted Interpersonal), and I don't really identify with Introverted Intrapersonal or Extroverted Interpersonal at all (Extroverted Intrapersonal's sort of in between).

I'm not as certain about the thinking subdivisions - Extroverted Intra in particular seems murky, but darned if I can find the words to explain why (big help I am). I suppose I've always identified Ti with internal logic and Te with "gettin' stuff done", so distinguishing them further seems more difficult. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that you're on the right track there too.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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_________________________________________________________________
Thinking

Definitions

Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

Intra-thought = Existing or occurring within the individual self or mind. These are the dynamics within the internal system of ideas and original thought.

Inter-thought = pertaining to the relations between concepts. These are the dynamics in the external systems of ideas and established thought.

_________________________________________________________________
Four Quadrants

Introverted Intra-thought

An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of ideas that occur within the self. This focus is on original thought from within self. This internal framework of reason is the point of reference for all thought. This process would produce highly original thought, but is the least connected to the outside world. Perhaps John Nash represents this thinking.

Introverted Inter-thought

An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of thought that occur between original and external ideas. This focus is integrating new ideas into established concepts. Perhaps Einstein demonstrates this.

Extroverted Intra-thought
An external point of reference concerned with original ideas generated outside the self. This focus readily accepts and adapts to new systems of thought discovered outside self. It assumes an internal framework, but this may be constructed outside of self and still be readily grasped. It seeks new and original relationships between external ideas. Perhaps Feynman is an example of this thinking.

Extroverted Inter-thought

An external point of reference concerned with the dynamics that occur between external systems of ideas. This focus is based on solidifying relationships between existing ideas. This would be an organizers and facilitator of ideas perhaps.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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_________________________________________________________________
Intuition

Definitions

Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

Mono-Systems = The framework for integrating concepts is into a single system.

Poly-Systems = The framework for integrating ideas is into multiple systems.

_________________________________________________________________
Four Quadrants

Introverted Mono-System

An internal point of reference concerned with organizing internalized concepts into a single system that encompasses all of reality. There is an underlying assumption of a singular point of reference.

Introverted Poly-Systems

An internal point of reference concerned with organizing internalized concepts into multiple hypothesized systems that encompasses all of reality. There is an underlying assumption of multiple plausible points of reference.

Extroverted Mono-System
An external point of reference concerned with organizing external concepts into a single system that encompasses all of reality. There is an underlying assumption of a singular point of reference.

Extroverted Poly-Systems

An external point of reference concerned with organizing externalized concepts into multiple hypothesized systems that encompasses all of reality. There is an underlying assumption of multiple plausible points of reference. This approach may be the most fluid of all.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'm not sure if the concept of mono and poly-systems could plausibly map to Sensing. What I am attempting to generate here is a discussion that takes into account some of the most significant differences that can occur within a function to help explain the great diversity within each. This is all just hypothesis, and so discussion is welcome to further explore what is presented here or to propose a different way of breaking down a function. While this is based on MBTI, I'm not approaching the system as the end-all, and so new ideas are welcome to be brought into it.
 

jryn1993

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I like the concept. How fundamental to the mono/poly dichotomy is the assumption of certainty or lack there of? I identify more with the mono-system description but I have an underlying assumption of uncertainty.
I have a vague idea in my head about dividing sensing (or at least Se) along the inter/intra axis, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good description. The basic observation being that some Se users seem to use the function more in a social context, while some focus it more on individual action. Not sure if it could apply to Si or not.
Also do you see any reason why opposite functions would be more prone take opposite or similar stances? I identify more with both Introverted Inter-thought and Extroverted Interpersonal.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Sensing

Definitions

Introversion = the state of being concerned primarily with one's own thoughts and feelings rather than with the external environment. The point of reference is inside self.

Extroversion = the state of being concerned primarily with things outside the self, with the external environment rather than with one's own thoughts and feelings. The point of reference is outside self.

Internal-Systems = Sensing preferences are derived internally. This could compare to the Intuitive concept of a single or Mono-System.

External-Systems = Sensing preferences are derived externally. This could compare with the Intuitive concept of multiple, or Poly-Systems.
_________________________________________________________________
Four Quadrants

Introverted Internal-System

An internal point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on internally created preferences. A possible more extreme example is an individual like Larry from "Num3ers" who eats only white food. It would be someone who creates their own sensory preferences based on internal ideas about these and having little or no influence from external systems like what you are "supposed" to eat for Thanksgiving. This person may be seen as eccentric because they have an extremely personal way of creating preferences that is not based on any tradition or system.

Introverted External-Systems

An internal point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on externally created preferences. A possible example would be someone who always eats strawberry pancakes on Sunday morning because they grew up with this experience. Or perhaps someone who spends a year in Thailand, but still needs to have a Thanksgiving dinner with a turkey and all the trimmings just they are supposed to be. This person has personalized an external concept of how a sensory experience is experienced. This is one type of strong traditionalist, but someone who bases their concept of tradition on individual experience.

Extroverted Internal-System
An external point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on internally created preferences. This would be someone who makes sensory choices based on what is happening or available externally done in harmony with internal preferences. This person is not concerned with external systems of sensory experience like what is a proper Thanksgiving, but they don't have preconceived notions about sensory experience, but go with whatever flow is available that they personally prefer. This is seen as the free-spirit for sensory experience.

Extroverted External-Systems

An external point of reference concerned with sensory experiences based on externally created preferences. This would be someone who makes sensory choices based on what is happening or available externally done in harmony with whatever external systems are in place. When this person has Thanksgiving dinner in Kansas, it has all the correct trimmings with Turkey, but when they live in Korea for a year, they will have Kimchee served authentically. This person is also a kind of traditionalist, but one who is aware of whatever traditions they encounter externally. They think in terms of established systems, but interact with as many as they encounter.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I like the concept. How fundamental to the mono/poly dichotomy is the assumption of certainty or lack there of? I identify more with the mono-system description but I have an underlying assumption of uncertainty.
I have a vague idea in my head about dividing sensing (or at least Se) along the inter/intra axis, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a good description. The basic observation being that some Se users seem to use the function more in a social context, while some focus it more on individual action. Not sure if it could apply to Si or not.
Also do you see any reason why opposite functions would be more prone take opposite or similar stances? I identify more with both Introverted Inter-thought and Extroverted Interpersonal.
I think you are right about the certainty issue. Let me go back and edit that out. Thanks for pointing that out.

I made an attempt at the Sensing axis, but it probably needs some revision. The Sensing and Intuitive should have two similar axis, so I'm not sure if the single and multiple system approach is the right one for Intuition.
 

Such Irony

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Introverted Mono-System
An internal point of reference concerned with organizing internalized concepts into a single system that encompasses all of reality. There is an underlying assumption of a singular point of reference.

This sounds like Ti to me.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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This sounds like Ti to me.
I think Ti and Ni are similar, but they are systems organized differently. One is based more on logic and tends to have mastery over the system so that it is all comprehended. Ni is like viewing something so large it cannot be consciously comprehended and so it is funneled down to core concepts from which the whole can be extrapolated. It is possible that I can confuse the two because I am lost in a Ni-Ti Tert-loop. :happy2:

This is what I have for Ti. It sound almost the same, and the new axis distinguishes between the Ti that is primarily internal and unique, and the Ti that combines that internalized thinking moreso with external knowledge, but in both cases the point of reference is internal. There are Ti's who read constantly and absorb much from the outside world, but still integrate it internally rather than like Te would. There are also Ti's who are more purely internally focused. Let me know what you think of the distinction between the two and if there is a way to further clarify - also if there is a better way to distinguish between Ti and Ni.

Introverted Intra-thought
An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of ideas that occur within the self. This focus is on original thought from within self. This internal framework of reason is the point of reference for all thought.

Introverted Inter-thought
An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of thought that occur between original and external ideas. This focus is integrating new ideas into established concepts.
 

UniqueMixture

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This is actually interesting. You could define it in terms of neurological firing patterns and what they're being stimulated by (repeating firing as is often seen in those with high d1 levels could be intuition?) and whether those patterns impact the larger totality of organism and the selves outside of itself. However, I would still like for their to be gradient in terms of "levels" of the various functions because it probably varies with synaptic density. I believe J types tend to have higher executive function generally for example. Also, this does not explain states which transcend the individual ones where one is simultaneously inter/intra connected and when one views oneself as and others as both subjects and objects. I think feelings would be more closely related in some ways at least to similarities of sensory data to that previously mapped with positive affect (not lighting up of amygdala/negative hippocampus experience/cortisol release) with some similarities for intuition (dopamine channels) and extraversion and perception thus the enfp-istj polarization that is so common to see in most (the opposing states to those mentioned previously would correlate with dissimilarity of experience).

/random thoughts
 

Such Irony

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I think Ti and Ni are similar, but they are systems organized differently. One is based more on logic and tends to have mastery over the system so that it is all comprehended. Ni is like viewing something so large it cannot be consciously comprehended and so it is funneled down to core concepts from which the whole can be extrapolated. It is possible that I can confuse the two because I am lost in a Ni-Ti Tert-loop. :happy2:

This is what I have for Ti. It sound almost the same, and the new axis distinguishes between the Ti that is primarily internal and unique, and the Ti that combines that internalized thinking moreso with external knowledge, but in both cases the point of reference is internal. There are Ti's who read constantly and absorb much from the outside world, but still integrate it internally rather than like Te would. There are also Ti's who are more purely internally focused. Let me know what you think of the distinction between the two and if there is a way to further clarify - also if there is a better way to distinguish between Ti and Ni.

Introverted Intra-thought
An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of ideas that occur within the self. This focus is on original thought from within self. This internal framework of reason is the point of reference for all thought.

Introverted Inter-thought
An internal point of reference concerned with the systems of thought that occur between original and external ideas. This focus is integrating new ideas into established concepts.

Interesting. I identify mostly with the latter description.
 

RoadPaveMent

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I am 100% extroverted intrapersonal. My whole life is spent being upset for others.
 

Eric B

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Interesting idea.
Though I don't think each function attitude would really need to be divided like that, at least not as far as some sort of preference. I'll have to digest these more, but the first thing that comes to mind (and which no one here was really saying back when this thread started, but has been pointed out more recently, particularly in discussions with [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] /Naama), is that according to Jung, each function attitude is like a loop (my term), starting at its preferred i/e orientation, then traveling to the opposite orientation, and yet coming back and finishing at its starting point. You often hear i/e described as "energy flowing toward" the subject/object, or one being "energized by" the internal or external world. So energy moves in both directions, and both realms (orientations) are accessed by the function. The attitude is determined by the starting/ending point.

So what you're describing might simply be those two different aspects of the function-attitude.
It also might be the other function being used in tandem. Like Introverted Internal Systems where the person has their own peculiar tradition might be Si with Ti or Fi, and Introverted External Systems might be Si with Te or Fe, or even Ne. Like I can identify with both modes, and when in the first mode; it's likely from Ti, and in the other mode, from Fe.
 
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