Does N accomodate S more than S accomodates N?

[IZthe411]

I think you're dead on accurate in this description of the general weakness of the N position. And let me be the first to admit that I'm not sure how to get around this sometimes. I guess my Te (my tertiary function) tries to run regular fact checks on my theories. For example, if I conclude someone is an asshole, it's easy for me to look at the facts to support my theory. But when I'm at my best, I try to periodically step back, look at the big factual picture, and see if the behavior I observe backs of my theory. When I'm not at my best, it's easy for me to let my theorizing run a muck.

As far as it specifically applies to my understanding of being an S and what this means, let me be the first to admit that I'm starting with the theory and then looking for behavior from my S friends that supports the theory as I understand it. That's why I'm upfront that I welcome S clarification. I know I'm still learning here.

================================

Until a couple of years ago, I didn't appreciate how profound the differences between being an S and N were. But I've come to conclude that this is the most profound difference two people can have. It's not that being S or N changes the way we think. The way we think is pretty much the same for all people. Instead, being an S or N changes what we think about.

If I were to place an apple on a table in front of us and asked everyone to describe it, an S is more likely to say "round and red." An N is more likely to say "a fruit." There are literally thousands pieces of information any human being is exposed to at any given moment... far more than can be processed by our senses / brain. So we all make choices about what information to process first.

Thus, an S and an N can be in the exact same situation and take in radically different information because they focus on different things. This affects how all of our other mental functions play out.

Think of it this way: There is a chronological component to the way we think. First we take in information (S/N). Then we make decisions on the information we take in (T/F). So back to the profound differences between how Ss and Ns think... if Ss and Ns take in different information from the very get go, then doesn't it stand to reason that all subsequent steps will play out differently because the input is so different?

A better way to describe the difference is that we take different paths to the same destination..

 

[King sns]

A better way to describe the difference is that we take different paths to the same destination..

There ya go! Thank you. My post was so scattered but that is essentially what I was trying to say.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

So is there more accommodating? Well, sure, if an N is in an S-dominated environment or family, it will fall on the N to accommodate more. Just as an S in an N-dominated environment/family/peer group will probably have to accommodate more to the N's. There is comfort/ease with connection and similarity - so whomever is more in the majority -- of whatever personality trait -- will feel the need to accommodate less. I mean, as a non S/N example, I know that I tend to be pretty uncomfortable / feel out of place with a group of FP-types. My differences in comparison to them, as a group bonding together, become apparent. So...

I think Cascadeco and some others (like Jennifer) bring up a good point that I didn't discuss in my original post... namely that being surrounded by a bunch of people of the opposite type will force someone to exercise their non-dominant mental muscles.

I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.

But to the OP, I can't deny that growing up, I looked around me and saw all of my peers conversing and talking about things I didn't care about at all, and that I couldn't relate to at all.

Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, the point of all this is that if there is an undertone of elitism in being N for some Ns, I think this is where it comes from. (I don't condone N elitism. In fact, I think it's very short-sited and wrong.) But I think N elitism grows out of two common experiences that Ns share:

1. That when they communicate with Ss, they wind up accommodating S-styles of communication more than Ss accommodate their native N-style of communication.
2. That they've spent a lot of their lives feeling like the odd man out, like a freak of nature, like they are somehow different.

For all the Ss out there who are pissed off about perceived N elitism, maybe this will help you understand why it exists. I'm not suggesting you condone it, but maybe understanding where it comes from might help you find common ground with Ns who are feeling a little "N specialness."

Perhaps if you, as an S, made an effort to accommodate N styles of communicating, this would undercut some of the underpinnings of N elitism.

Just a thought. Now I'm going to go take cover before the sh*tstorm I expect this to stir up, begins.

 

[IZthe411]

Well yes, there is this. I wish I had the book in front of me, as I could then provide the actual quotes/info rather than the gist, but I'm reading a book on brain function, and in it it of course goes into all of these crazy exceptions in the world - the people who cannot sleep at all, the people who sleep nonstop, the people who retain amazing amounts of irrelevant detail for decades but have zero ability to synthesize and detect patterns (= 100% 'S'?), people with amazing stress-recovery ability, and on and on. So all of these exceptions to me represent those on the extreme end of any number of spectrums (hormonally/genetically) - and the reality is that many of them ARE for all intents and purposes nonfunctional in the world, or become catatonic. So, there is that.

But to the OP, I can't deny that growing up, I looked around me and saw all of my peers conversing and talking about things I didn't care about at all, and that I couldn't relate to at all. And it's also true that when I go out with a group of people as an adult, if they are predominantly sensor, I am bored out of my mind, or I find all of them so focused on things I don't focus on. And - there's nothing wrong about that. They would feel likewise with my group of friends. But it means a lack of connection/common ground, and there ARE differences between N's and S's.

So is there more accommodating? Well, sure, if an N is in an S-dominated environment or family, it will fall on the N to accommodate more. Just as an S in an N-dominated environment/family/peer group will probably have to accommodate more to the N's. There is comfort/ease with connection and similarity - so whomever is more in the majority -- of whatever personality trait -- will feel the need to accommodate less. I mean, as a non S/N example, I know that I tend to be pretty uncomfortable / feel out of place with a group of FP-types. My differences in comparison to them, as a group bonding together, become apparent. So...

I thought the same thing but I thought that would just lead off in that there are more S than Ns, so mathematically there would have to be more Ns doing the accomodating- too easy.

 

[IZthe411]

I think Cascadeco and some others (like Jennifer) bring up a good point that I didn't discuss in my original post... namely that being surrounded by a bunch of people of the opposite type will force someone to exercise their non-dominant mental muscles.

I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.



Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, the point of all this is that if there is an undertone of elitism in being N for some Ns, I think this is where it comes from. (I don't condone N elitism. In fact, I think it's very short-sited and wrong.) But I think N elitism grows out of two common experiences that Ns share:

1. That when they communicate with Ss, they wind up accommodating S-styles of communication more than Ss accommodate their native N-style of communication.
2. That they've spent a lot of their lives feeling like the odd man out, like a freak of nature, like they are somehow different.

For all the Ss out there who are pissed off about perceived N elitism, maybe this will help you understand why it exists. I'm not suggesting you condone it, but maybe understanding where it comes from might help you find common ground with Ns who are feeling a little "N specialness."

Perhaps if you, as an S, made an effort to accommodate N styles of communicating, this would undercut some of the underpinnings of N elitism.

Just a thought. Now I'm going to go take cover before the sh*tstorm I expect this to stir up, begins.

Or your intuition could finally point you to the fact that, at the end of the day, it's not that serious.
Or, it could say, maybe I'm the one with the problem!

 

[King sns]

I think Cascadeco and some others (like Jennifer) bring up a good point that I didn't discuss in my original post... namely that being surrounded by a bunch of people of the opposite type will force someone to exercise their non-dominant mental muscles.

I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.



Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

^^^^^^^^^^
Anyway, the point of all this is that if there is an undertone of elitism in being N for some Ns, I think this is where it comes from. (I don't condone N elitism. In fact, I think it's very short-sited and wrong.) But I think N elitism grows out of two common experiences that Ns share:

1. That when they communicate with Ss, they wind up accommodating S-styles of communication more than Ss accommodate their native N-style of communication.
2. That they've spent a lot of their lives feeling like the odd man out, like a freak of nature, like they are somehow different.

For all the Ss out there who are pissed off about perceived N elitism, maybe this will help you understand why it exists. I'm not suggesting you condone it, but maybe understanding where it comes from might help you find common ground with Ns who are feeling a little "N specialness."

Perhaps if you, as an S, made an effort to accommodate N styles of communicating, this would undercut some of the underpinnings of N elitism.

Just a thought. Now I'm going to go take cover before the sh*tstorm I expect this to stir up, begins.

What about now? You guys talk about school years and home life and growing up. Once you're in college you're independent and free to make your own decisions. Everyone is going to be happier with that situation after their playground and high school years. Teenagers and kids are underdeveloped people who are learning about themselves and haven't fully learned to communicate. Everyone in their growing years is going to feel left out at one point or another.

Do you still feel left out in the world?

(Edit: I'm actually just curious rather than disagreeing with your experience.)

 

[Esoteric Wench]

A better way to describe the difference is that we take different paths to the same destination..

Really? Because I think the differing paths lead to very different destinations. How are they the same? I think you can learn to accommodate the differences, but I don't think the differences go away. I've heard several Ss say things like this... and maybe this is how it seems from the S perspective, but I don't think most Ns would agree with this. (I predict that upon me writing these words, an N is going to agree with you, nonetheless I don't think most Ns will.)

I sometimes get depressed because I feel that the S/N differences are almost insurmountable... and I want to overcome them. I love the Ss in my life (which includes my ISTP significant other) and I'm sick of feeling so different from Ss.

I always think of a story I once read in high school about how it was impossible to describe the color red to someone who had never been able to see. You can describe it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, you just won't get it until you've experienced it yourself. Well this is how being an N feels for me. I feel like I see a color that the S has never seen and can hardly imagine. I can do my best to describe it, but at the end of the day, an S can't really understand what my N view of the world looks like.

This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique. I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.

 

[King sns]

Really? Because I think the differing paths lead to very different destinations. How are they the same? I think you can learn to accommodate the differences, but I don't think the differences go away. I've heard several Ss say things like this... and maybe this is how it seems from the S perspective, but I don't think most Ns would agree with this. (I predict that upon me writing these words, an N is going to agree with you, nonetheless I don't think most Ns will.)

I sometimes get depressed because I feel that the S/N differences are almost insurmountable... and I want to overcome them. I love the Ss in my life (which includes my ISTP significant other) and I'm sick of feeling so different from Ss.

I always think of a story I once read in high school about how it was impossible to describe the color red to someone who had never been able to see. You can describe it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, you just won't get it until you've experienced it yourself. Well this is how being an N feels for me. I feel like I see a color that the S has never seen and can't hardly imagine. I can do my best to describe it, but at the end of the day, an S can't really understand what my N view of the world looks like.

This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique. I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.

We understand that. To me, it sounds like you're projecting that S's don't understand you, when really you don't understand S's. And also, I question who you're thinking is an S and who you're thinking is an N, (since you don't understand S's.) I know that you feel left out for some reason. I'm not downplaying how you feel, I don't think any of us are. I'm trying to understand why N's may feel that way, or if they are typing themselves "N" because people don't understand them, or if there's something in the N way of thinking that projects that they can't communicate with S's, or any other factors come into play. What makes you think that the people who understand you are all N's?

(Edit: Because to me, an S can take University classes and be surrounded by college professors and still feel understood. It sounds like you're trying to look for places where the S would be out of place, since you feel out of place in the world. I think that's what we don't get. I feel that I can understand and make myself understood in most environments, I guess that does confirm what you say about S's feeling understood.)

 

[IZthe411]

Really? Because I think the differing paths lead to very different destinations. How are they the same? I think you can learn to accommodate the differences, but I don't think the differences go away. I've heard several Ss say things like this... and maybe this is how it seems from the S perspective, but I don't think most Ns would agree with this. (I predict that upon me writing these words, an N is going to agree with you, nonetheless I don't think most Ns will.)

I sometimes get depressed because I feel that the S/N differences are almost insurmountable... and I want to overcome them. I love the Ss in my life (which includes my ISTP significant other) and I'm sick of feeling so different from Ss.

I always think of a story I once read in high school about how it was impossible to describe the color red to someone who had never been able to see. You can describe it as much as you want, but at the end of the day, you just won't get it until you've experienced it yourself. Well this is how being an N feels for me. I feel like I see a color that the S has never seen and can't hardly imagine. I can do my best to describe it, but at the end of the day, an S can't really understand what my N view of the world looks like.

This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique. I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.

Points taken and considered......It sounds more like the operation of intuition in the situation - you know, "possibilities"- at work. And I'm sitting here wondering if it's Ne users more than Ni that feels like they are different- in the sense you are speaking of... or even an NF combination. I dunno. I can't speak for all S types, but all the Ns I'm close to don't feel this way. Unless they aren't sharing it specifically- they get along generally well. The ones I have introduced to MBTI were happy to validate their way of thinking, and it was less of 'This is why nobody understands me' and more of 'this is where I differ from people of other types.'

You can't fully understand a person's motivations or how they will conclude based on type. Will you be right from time to time? Yes. But it's definitely an individual sport.

 

[Eric B]

If I were to place an apple on a table in front of us and asked everyone to describe it, an S is more likely to say "round and red." An N is more likely to say "a fruit." There are literally thousands pieces of information any human being is exposed to at any given moment... far more than can be processed by our senses / brain. So we all make choices about what information to process first.

The way I've heard it summed up, the S hears: "What are the properties of this image?" the N hears: "What does this image mean to you?"

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I’m posting my response to Orangey before catching up with the rest of the thread, so usual apologies for anything that’s already been said.

As for Southern Cross's "point" about my comment being ironic, I thought that the irony she was pointing out came from the fact that I, an S, was criticizing EW, an N, for extrapolating meaning beyond the details of the text while at the same time protesting the stated differences between N and S (which I wasn't. I was protesting something much more specific. But I could see how one might not think to hard about it if they just wanted an opportunity to be pithy. Or at least attempt to be pithy, as the case may be.) I'm not seeing the irony in the sentence that you bolded, though.

The part of your paragraph that seems contradictory (I really don’t know if this is what Southern Cross was also referring to or not) is that you’re trying to nullify the proposition that Ns and Ss speak a different language while also pointing out how the language is different (the part I bolded). I mean, I get that you were focusing on esoteric wench’s specific claim (impressions, patterns, meaning)- but in pointing out how those impressions/patterns/meanings would be different, you did point out how the language is different.

It’s just that it really does make a difference, to talk to someone with the same starting point. I relate strongly to the first post Jennifer left- a lot of times point A for me isn’t close enough to point B (where its practical value is apparent) in what I’m saying for its value to be easily digestible. It helps to talk to people who can help me iron it out- others who make the same leaps of thought, so they can either show me where I’ve gone wrong or show me where I need to present the connections in a more linear way. I suppose I would call this a “secret language”, it does help me make it more readily digestible if I’ve got someone to iron it out with. If I can’t make it more digestible, it gets dismissed as imagination or just making things more complicated then they need to be- because the meaning isn’t based on what “REAL meaning” is to the other person. This is frustrating when I’m pretty sure I’ve got a valid point (with practical value, however many stages removed from “REAL” as it may seem). And the more someone can understand the leaps in thought I tend to make, the less they are likely to dismiss what I’m saying as crazy talk.

I thought this was a good point:

I don't notice much of a communication barrier between myself and N's in my life. To me it just looks like they are thinking backwards. It's like, they start with the theory and the big picture and then move backwards to fill it in with the details. Underdeveloped people won't move past their original thought process. So, an underdeveloped S may have trouble communicating with an underdeveloped N, because they aren't meeting anywhere in between. Most well rounded adults end up appearing to speak both S and N languages, their processes moving in different directions. (Sorry if this came out awkward.)

I agree that Ss who are willing to move past their own thought process are no more or less accommodating than Ns who are willing to move past their initial thought process- and that both Ss and Ns can be equally unwilling to do so. [edit:] There’s a quote I love by R.D. Laing: “The way we construe a difference may serve to narrow or widen it. Both what you say and how I listen contribute to how close or far apart we are.” I’ll wholly concede there are intuitives who (consciously or not) widen the difference because of special snowflake syndrome, and who seem to believe they are accomplishing something sensational by simply being intuitive. As annoying as that is, arguing that a difference doesn’t exist isn’t the same as arguing that people aren’t accomplishing something magical and profound by being intuitive (as opposed to accomplishing something magical and profound by actually accomplishing something magical and profound)- and not recognizing the real differences (and the difficulties Ns claim to experience in feeling understood by others) is actually also widening the gap because there are real differences. It’s a mistake I see happening in these S/N threads, as a knee-jerk reaction to this other special snowflake syndrome-induced ‘imagined’ differences issue going on. It’s like it all gets dismissed as being caused by special snowflake syndrome.

To the op, I think there is a point by virtue of N being a minority. A minority in any group will always have to be somewhat more accommodating than the majority, because that’s just how things work. This, and there was a point in how Ns have to develop S in order to function in the world and communicate with others (to both Ss and other Ns alike)- whereas Ss don’t really need to develop N simply to be functional.

I’m not sure I agree that sensing much of communication barrier at all means a person is underdeveloped, but I guess that depends on how we’re qualifying a communication barrier. As I said above, I do perceive something like bumps in the road- but someone has to be a really unwilling, super-underdeveloped S for me to think it isn't worth the effort of trying to communicate with them.

 

[Orangey]

I see that this line of thinking is one which is too far ingrained in the thinking of this community as a whole...

I can think of two great examples: family and work. These are often situations where we can't choose our companions. I grew up in a heavily N family (INTJ mother and ENTP father) and I didn't have to learn how to deal with S-ness in the way Jennifer did with her heavily S family. By the same token, I've worked in law firms and universities which tend to be heavily N. (The majority of lawyers and liberal arts college professors are N). An S working in either of these environments would be required to practice their N mental muscles.

Yeah right, like I'm going to believe that the majority of university professors and lawyers are N (especially lawyers, good God! Talk about an SJ bastion.) This statement alone leads me to think that you're simply typing people as N IRL if they are smart or open-minded. Just what about doing work as a lawyer or being a university professor (especially in fields that are more practical) is more inherently N? I'm surprised that there aren't more Ss taking offense to this, as it's basically saying that any serious profession in which extensive knowledge is required is inherently not suited for you, unless you can somehow exercise your "N muscles." Goddamn.

Another similar example is my and Cascadeco's experiences growing up. I TOTALLY identified with what Cascadeco wrote here. When interacting with my peers which presumably were 80% sensors I found myself bored sh*tless by the things they talked about. I didn't care about what they cared about, and couldn't relate to these things at all. It took a lot of life experience for me to start seeking out other Ns. (Although, I didn't know that's what I was doing at the time.)

What makes you think this is a strictly N experience? I get the feeling that a lot of these anecdotes about "growing up N around Ss" are nothing other than the result of bad thinking coupled with some sort of complex over having been left out at school.

Guess what? I found MY peers to be fucking boring and stupid too! And I found my parents to be narrow minded, controlling, and traditional. Does that make me an N? Or does that mean I was somehow an S in a majority N environment? That would HAVE to be the logical implication of what you guys are saying.

This thread started because I was trying to understand why I feel like I understand the S worldview but that Ss couldn't ever fully understand my N-ness. I didn't want to come to this conclusion... and I fully admit that I might be wrong in my conclusions. All I can say is that this is what my gut tells me... and for the other Ns I've talked to about this, they agree with me.

Can you please tell me what the S worldview is? I'd really like to know what it is that I think.

I don't hear a lot of Ss going on about how they feel so different from Ns. I guess I concluded it's because they are often unaware of the N-ness going on around them.

Right. That must be the only possible conclusion, because Ss and Ns are so inherently different.

Please, please, please hear me when I re-emphasize that I'm not saying being N is inherently more special or better than being S. It's just that being N feels very different and "other" than S. It feels unique.

If it feels very "different" and "unique" to you, then it's probably because you WANT to feel that way about it.

I know the reverse must also be true, but I don't hear Ss talk about this much so I conclude that maybe this isn't salient to the S reality.

Yeah, because no S feels different or "other."

 

[stalemate]

 

[Sunny Ghost]

isn't poetry, art, literature, music, science, all a way of "accommodating" intuitive communication style?

and is this really accommodating, or rather just we live in a world where both intuition and sensing is used by all 16 types.

I'm quite positive that I use both sensing and intuition.

 

[Saslou]

^^ I like your thinking

Guess what? I found MY peers to be fucking boring and stupid too! And I found my parents to be narrow minded, controlling, and traditional. Does that make me an N? Or does that mean I was somehow an S in a majority N environment? That would HAVE to be the logical implication of what you guys are saying.

Just following from this

I have a work colleague who went to university and her topic of conversation usually include which mansion she'd like to live in, who her role model is (It's Katie price AKA Jordon) and what make-up she recently brought etc .. I find that boring to shit.
Another colleague went to university and studied Law and psychology .. we have amazing discussions.

My father is an INTJ and bores me with his theories on how i should live (still love him though) and my step dad who is an ENFJ is sooo fricking easy to talk to especially when we are debating space, time, technology and robot world domination
My mother is a sensor and although i sometimes roll my eyes, i appreciate what she brings to the table.

So regardless of the N/S split .. I think i've done a good job of incorporating different personalities to make my life experience as varied as possible.

 

[INTP]

my view on this is that Ne is basically unconscious perception of "Se", taking these details that this "Se" provides and unconscious mind working to find patterns about where those details came from and where they might be going, now these patterns that unconscious mind made from the details are taken into the conscious and those patterns coming to conscious perception is Ne.

the reason i said "Se", is that its not actually Se thats being used, even tho it basically does the same thing(perceiving the details). Se is when those details come to conscious mind and viewed as they are without further processing(like finding patterns) of the unconscious. Se is objective perception, the objectivity of the perception vanishes when when its the patterns that are perceived by the conscious, not the details itself.

and Se user trying to figure out patterns isnt Ne, because Ne is unconscious perception of those patterns.

naturally even Ne types are capable of seeing details with their eyes, but just seeing them doesent mean you are using Se, it means that you are using your eyes.

so to N its about looking to his unconscious, but for S its about doing extra conscious processing on the info.

i think it might be easiest to ESTJ, because of tert Ne and Te being capable of seeing facts on external world. also Si and Ne kinda go hand to hand. also i think it might be the hardest for ESFP, because of inferior Ni and no Ne

 

[Orangey]

The part of your paragraph that seems contradictory (I really don’t know if this is what Southern Cross was also referring to or not) is that you’re trying to nullify the proposition that Ns and Ss speak a different language while also pointing out how the language is different (the part I bolded). I mean, I get that you were focusing on esoteric wench’s specific claim (impressions, patterns, meaning)- but in pointing out how those impressions/patterns/meanings would be different, you did point out how the language is different.

Really? I did? Did my text break into wingbats for you there? Or are you seriously saying that having different interests/ways of thinking about things impedes communication? Then how do you communicate with anyone at all?

 

[IZthe411]

The way I've heard it summed up, the S hears: "What are the properties of this image?" the N hears: "What does this image mean to you?"

Can't that also be expressed F vs T?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Really? I did? Did my text break into wingbats for you there? Or are you seriously saying that having different interests/ways of thinking about things impedes communication? Then how do you communicate with anyone at all?

It seems to me like I answered this in my response. I just came back to edit it, adding more, which might clarify. Yes- having a different way of processing information impedes communication. And the statement "Meaning is okay as long as it's REAL meaning" is indicative of a significant difference.

 

[skylights]

^ i did get that feeling a little bit from your paragraph too actually orangey haha. just that like... theory on theory isn't always totally illegitimate, or non-real. it's just very filtered. sometimes i actually need to back away from the tangible for a moment to understand what i'm trying to get at, because i have so much of an easier time understanding a theoretical construct, where things can be ordered and even and symmetrical. it feels like a simplification to me, even though to some people it seems like a complication. not to say this makes communication hard, but sometimes i have to double-back in my own mind to understand. i'm sure everyone has to do this with some things. my particular brand just happens to be retreating back to theory so that i can understand the messier aspects of moment-to-moment reality.

Can't that also be expressed F vs T?

yeah. i tend to think that all Perception asks the question, what do you see? and each function just returns slightly different aspects of that.

i just wanted to poke in and say that, much like pretty much everyone on the planet, i've felt a bit "odd" at times, but i can't really isolate it as ever being a result of N/S stuff. my ESFJ mom was my primary teacher/mentor in life and we've always communicated pretty well. we experience more Fe-Fi contention than N/S.