The problem with intuition

[Glycerine]

Typical.

Still, he may be emotionally disturbed, are you completely certain that none of these childhood traits have carried over into adulthood, or just that as a grown man he's become a more charming sociopath?

Because generally sociopaths are quite charming.

Am I the only one who got a little disturbed by the fact he drew out plans for his classmates' demise? Trust me, I think of punching people on a regular basis but I never went THAT far.

 

[sculpting]

this is cool..
Some Characteristics of the INFJ Child-Some Behaviors to Look For
•INFJ children are intensely thoughtful, private young ones
•Cuddly, happy, cheerful babies…at home; away from home they can be quiet/serious
•INFJ children spend much of their time (all their lives!) inside their heads…very rich fantasy, imagination ability
•the INFJ child can be extremely tuned in to the emotional reality of their family….don’t argue/fight in front of them
•Most INFJ kids are naturally polite, obedient, gentle, patient, considerate kids
•INFJ children are so into their heads they may lag behind mastering some outside physical, sports related activity…they will get it however if interested…just don’t rush them
•INFJ children are naturally tuned into music, fantasy, literature and like to sit and engage in these things early on
•In school INFJ children usually exhibit a love of learning, reading, stories, myths, fairy tales and are very creative
•the INFJ child will easily excel in writing, music, painting, other fine artsy expressions
•the INFJ can be very stubborn when their mind is made up
•the INFJ may hang back from group activities of all kinds unless they know a few of the participants well…don’t push your INFJ into new group things too quickly
•the INFJ will need to spend a lot of time alone…you guessed it….in their heads
•the INFJ will show a marked tendency toward perfectionism
•as they become adolescent their will exhibit more future concerns, future thinking
•the INFJ penchant for future and perfectionist thinking can trouble them greatly as they consider operating in the outside world

At my son's daycare there are several little cute ones, including a little ESFP who today insisted on trying to kiss my little INTJ. "I DO NOT LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE KISS ME!!!!". The ESFP is so incredibely gooey and is the most flirty two year old I have ever seen-she is positively enchantingly cute and even batts her eyes at you. It is adorable.

But there is also this very cute little baby boy who I think may be an INFJ. He looks at you from a distance and is very quiet and reserved but smiles coyly once he gets to know you but doesnt want to be touched or even watched directly-yet he watches you intently observing everything you do. He is a doll.

(welcome to the forum btw!)

 

[Viridian]

I do hope Elfboy's friend didn't go through the rest of the Macdonald triad...

 

[Thalassa]

Am I the only one who got a little disturbed by the fact he drew out plans for his classmates' demise? Trust me, I think of punching people on a regular basis but I never went THAT far.

No I actually think that's adorable. Of course, I think INTJs are creepy cute.

I didn't get disturbed until Elfboy mentioned that his friend got pleasure from harming or killing multiple animals, and that he reminded him of "Patrick Bateman." That is not okay.

I'm also with Viridian on the MacDonald triad. I just did a shitload of research on sociopaths and serial killers: animal torture, bed wetting, fire starting.

Also bad (if combined):

- abusive homelife

- biological disposition which does not allow them to be able to bond with other humans, a lack of understanding of human relationships

- extremely intelligent and imaginative

- triggered by rejection/humiliation

- drug/alcohol/sadistic pornography catalysts

I doubt Elfboy's friend is a serial killer, but he sounds like he possibly could be a sociopath.

 

[Viridian]

Well, to avoid fanning the flames too much, Elfboy, I'll just say I trust your judgment on this matter. I just don't want you to get hurt by manipulative people or something like that...

 

[Anew Leaf]

When I was about 8, I realized that I wasn't too into this whole "human race" thing. My dad was teaching geography at the time so I did some research and selected the NW territory of Canada as the place where I was going to make a log cabin and live by myself.

My current plan is to write a crappy series of books that inexplicably speaks to a wide portion of the populace, and use those funds to buy my own island in the Pacific.

Also I am pretty sure I was an INFP from the get-go. I was an only child in a house of NPs, and I spent most of my time creating worlds in my head, gazing at clouds for hours at a time, and talking to bugs.

There was one funny family story from when I was about 4. We had just moved to Minnesota and my parents were designing and creating a white picket fence to go around our enormous yard. My dad was hammering them in place and my mom was painting them. My job was to stay out of the way and I did just that by talking to ladybugs. Well, one of my little ladybug friends got into some paint. I started crying and ran into the house with her, with the best of intentions towards washing my friend off. Well, I ended up washing her down the drain.... I was sobbing for hours.... and hours.... and my dad suddenly came to get me and said come here quick!! Brings me into the kitchen and lo! there is "my" ladybug! I was overjoyed until I remembered my dad's recent lecture about how drains connect in the house (INTP dad), and that this couldn't possibly be the same ladybug. So my mom interjected with how it was a magic ladybug because I had loved her so much. And that won me over... I carefully carried my ladybug out into the yard and set her free.

The end.

 

[Thalassa]

Well, to avoid fanning the flames too much, Elfboy, I'll just say I trust your judgment on this matter. I just don't want you to get hurt by manipulative people or something like that...

Well sometimes they don't hurt the people they love. The portrayal of Hannibal Lecter leaving Clarice Starling alone because he felt affection for her is based in reality. Ted Bundy had several girlfriends and a wife. He didn't harm any of them.

Sociopaths - even those as far gone as to participate in serial killing - apparently are capable of respecting the lives of certain individuals.

In fact, I wonder why, and what that means.

 

[Viridian]

Let me sort of rephrase what I was trying to say. I think we're born with the... er... instinct? (needs a better word) to act in certain ways. Personality can certainly be affected by life events, but it looks like nature prevails here. The reason why you may be different as you grow older seem to be the product of a few major things... 1. learning new skills 2. maturity level and 3. development of a mental disorder.

Perhaps "temperament" is the word you're looking for?

Well sometimes they don't hurt the people they love. The portrayal of Hannibal Lecter leaving Clarice Starling alone because he felt affection for her is based in reality. Ted Bundy had several girlfriends and a wife. He didn't harm any of them.

Sociopaths - even those as far gone as to participate in serial killing - apparently are capable of respecting the lives of certain individuals.

In fact, I wonder why, and what that means.

How does that work? Isn't sociopathy defined as an inability to feel empathy, like, at all?

 

[/DG/]

Perhaps "temperament" is the word you're looking for?

Ahhh yes! That's it!

 

[Viridian]

Ahhh yes! That's it!

Glad I could help! That term came up when I talked with my mother a few months ago; she said me and my brother (xSTJ, I think) had different temperaments even when we were babies. (Curiously, she also says I was more extroverted than my brother, in a non-MBTI use of the word... ) By the way, I'm not necessarily talking about Keirsey's temperaments, just the colloquial use of the word. She's a therapist, so I guess she knows that stuff.

 

[uumlau]

When I was 3 years old, a babysitter explained to me that it was "gravity" that kept us on the ground. So, I proceeded to ask her how it worked. Of course, she didn't have an answer (that would satisfy me). I eventually got a Ph.D. in astrophysics.

You may be right that one's personality (innate way of thinking) is with us from the get-go, but it takes a few years just to apply it to the real world, communicating with people around us. That way of looking at gravity is typical of how I think about everything. It isn't enough for me to stop at "gravity is what pulls things down." I have to know what's really going on, as best as I can. Even now, many years later, I teach myself new computer programming technologies by writing code to model orbital dynamics. There's something that pulls at me. (Gravity pun intended.)

 

[Thalassa]

How does that work? Isn't sociopathy defined as an inability to feel empathy, like, at all?

This is why I'm curious about it. Okay, apparently Ted was greatly taken by his first college gf, but she broke up with him because she said he was immature and lacked focus. Well, he became like, incredibly distraught, and withdrew from college, had a nervous breakdown, and drove across the country. It is speculated around the time of this break-up is when his first murder occurred (though according to some who are very suspicious and gossipy, that he's responsible for the disappearance of a girl in his town when he was a mere fourteen years old, but that was never confirmed).

Anyway, he went back to school, enrolled in law school after graduating, got another gf and seemed to be really normal. But then he started contacting the first gf - apparently to show off how focused he had become - and started seeing her and the second gf simultaneously. The first gf thought they might even get married, but he dumped her suddenly and coldly without any apparent motive or explanation, and later stated that he basically just wanted to get her back to see if he could, and get his revenge by dumping her.

He dated the second college gf on and off through much of his adult life, and they were both alcoholics, and he reportedly stole jewelry and presents for her. Bundy was committing serial murders behind her back throughout the duration of their relationship.

Bundy finally married his wife - an old co-worker - through some legal manipulation while in prison. He had a daughter with her via conjugal visits, but they divorced before he was executed when he finally confessed to her years later that he really was guilty.

I don't know. Many of his victims are said to have resembled the first gf who triggered his initial breakdown, and whom he dumped vengefully later.

All of his victims were total strangers.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

As was pointed out in the original posts, conventional developmental psychology theory says that children aren't capable of abstract thought until their adolescent years. Upon the reading, I remember thinking to myself, "Bullshit."

As someone with dominant Ne, let me tell you that I was thinking in all sorts of abstract ways when I was very young. Of course, I had no life experience and a lot of my thinking was muddled and childlike. But I was reading about philosophy and history and literature when I was in the first or second grade. These are all heavily N-oriented subjects. So looking back on things, I think I was already attracted to ideas over concrete details.

I remember talking to my INTJ mom about Greek proverbs and whether or not they could be applied in our time @ age 8 <--- Very N kind of activity. By the same token, I sucked / showed almost no interest in S activities. My Sensotard tendencies were already readily apparent. I was uncoordinated and had little interest in paying attention to my body or the concrete world around me. I'd far rather be daydreaming about the "meaning" of everything.

So yeah. If you're an N, you're an N at birth. I am still blown away by how radically different Ns and Ss experience the world. And it seems that those differences begin with birth... regardless of what some developmental psychologist say.

 

[Such Irony]

I can't say I was particularly intuitive in the MBTI sense as a child. I was heavy into the all the Ti stuff though. I didn't really develop my Ne until my teens (consistent with functional development theory).

I remember from my psychology class learning about Piaget's theory of cognitive development and according to that theory, children are in the concrete operational stage from ages 7-11. In this stage children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts. From what I remember about my childhood, I don't recall ever thinking much about abstract or hypothetical concepts at this age. I certainly didn't philosophize or think about things like the real meaning of life until my teens. So if this theory holds true, its hard to see how younger children's N actually manifests.

I remember in elementary school reading class where I read a story and then answered questions about it. At that time, I did terrible on the sorts of questions involving inferences and deducing someone's motivations. If the reason for someone's action wasn't explicitly stated, I was basically incapable of answering the question. So is this due to concrete operational stage of thinking? Intuition not being well developed yet? Or Asperger syndrome? I did have several Asperger traits as a child, some of which I outgrew as I got older. In my teens, I started making inferences all the time and reading between the lines. So is the change for me from pre-teens to teens due to functional development in the MBTI sense or it is just cognitive changes that could apply to just about any kid? Or a combination of the two?

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Perhaps there's a difference between an Ne or Ni dominant children and Ti/Te/Fi/Fe dominant children. Maybe, we all manifest our dominant functions at an early age and then as we get older, we learn how to tap into our secondary and tertiary functions. If this is correct, this might explain why you don't remember more about your iNtuition at a young age whereas I do have clear memories of my iNtuition being a powerful force in my young self.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I remember from my psychology class learning about Piaget's theory of cognitive development and according to that theory, children are in the concrete operational stage from ages 7-11. In this stage children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts. From what I remember about my childhood, I don't recall ever thinking much about abstract or hypothetical concepts at this age. I certainly didn't philosophize or think about things like the real meaning of life until my teens. So if this theory holds true, its hard to see how younger children's N actually manifests.

I remember from one of my own psychology classes, after reading Piaget's "The Child's Conception Of The World", thinking he was an asshole. His theories actually made me angry. I could remember enough about being little to know some of the things he said were off (and didn't give children much credit for knowing what they were talking about).

 

[/DG/]

I remember from my psychology class learning about Piaget's theory of cognitive development and according to that theory, children are in the concrete operational stage from ages 7-11. In this stage children begin thinking logically about concrete events, but have difficulty understanding abstract or hypothetical concepts.

Ahah! This! This is exactly what I was trying to refer to earlier! Jean Piaget's theory!

It seems to completely contradict the idea that someone could be born N.

 

[Elfboy]

Well sometimes they don't hurt the people they love. The portrayal of Hannibal Lecter leaving Clarice Starling alone because he felt affection for her is based in reality. Ted Bundy had several girlfriends and a wife. He didn't harm any of them.

Sociopaths - even those as far gone as to participate in serial killing - apparently are capable of respecting the lives of certain individuals.

In fact, I wonder why, and what that means.

is it possible to be a sociopath that isn't an evil serial killer? he says so himself that he thinks he has mild sociopathic tendencies, but he's always said hurting people for no reason was against his values. apparently this was always the case, but he felt like a lot of things were attacking him until he was younger (although in many instances he was right. he has been attacked by wild animals on more than one occasion and killed them lol). he never really had malicious intentions or saught to seek out conflict, but he did enjoy it when it was there. for instance, he was abused as a child and believes that it was actually good for him because it taught him to be stronger and he thought of it as a game where he and his dad would see who destroyed who first. in the end, he won by destroying his father's church from the inside and getting him arrested.he also claims that growing up with an abusive father strengthened his will and simultaneously taught him the value of being gentle, having a strong will (I could site 20 example of this) being self disciplined and not using unessessary force.

 

[Thalassa]

is it possible to be a sociopath that isn't an evil serial killer?

Yes, and apparently people with APD (anti-social personality disorder) can branch off into varying degrees of emotionality and even feel things for people but be unable to express it. It's apparently a lot more complicated than what was originally assumed. It would have to be, and the reason I get stuck on the Ted Bundy example is because clearly he had something like empathy or values about certain individuals.

Apparently it's also not unheard of for a psychopath to be able to love their pets but not people, etc.

he says so himself that he thinks he has mild sociopathic tendencies, but he's always said hurting people for no reason was against his values. apparently this was always the case, but he felt like a lot of things were attacking him until he was younger (although in many instances he was right. he has been attacked by wild animals on more than one occasion and killed them lol).

Killing a wild animal in self-defense and enjoying the feeling of triumph is not the same thing as intentionally tormenting your next door neighbor's harmless lap dog. That would probably actually fall within the range of normal, I'm sure.

he never really had malicious intentions or saught to seek out conflict, but he did enjoy it when it was there. for instance, he was abused as a child and believes that it was actually good for him because it taught him to be stronger and he thought of it as a game where he and his dad would see who destroyed who first. in the end, he won by destroying his father's church from the inside and getting him arrested.he also claims that growing up with an abusive father strengthened his will and simultaneously taught him the value of being gentle, having a strong will (I could site 20 example of this) being self disciplined and not using unessessary force.

Oh. I think from what you just described he actually sounds okay. He may just be somewhat emotionally troubled from the abuse.

I can't say - but the clarification that *he killed wild animals which attacked him* (or hunted for food, etc.) makes a HUGE difference.

Sociopathic torment of animals involves hurting helpless or defenseless things for enjoyment. And his ethic about not hurting anyone who doesn't deserve it sounds like he actually has pretty developed tertiary Fi.

 

[Elfboy]

Yes, and apparently people with APD (anti-social personality disorder) can branch off into varying degrees of emotionality and even feel things for people but be unable to express it. It's apparently a lot more complicated than what was originally assumed. It would have to be, and the reason I get stuck on the Ted Bundy example is because clearly he had something like empathy or values about certain individuals.

Apparently it's also not unheard of for a psychopath to be able to love their pets but not people, etc.



Killing a wild animal in self-defense and enjoying the feeling of triumph is not the same thing as intentionally tormenting your next door neighbor's harmless lap dog. That would probably actually fall within the range of normal, I'm sure.



Oh. I think from what you just described he actually sounds okay. He may just be somewhat emotionally troubled from the abuse.

I can't say - but the clarification that *he killed wild animals which attacked him* (or hunted for food, etc.) makes a HUGE difference.

Sociopathic torment of animals involves hurting helpless or defenseless things for enjoyment. And his ethic about not hurting anyone who doesn't deserve it sounds like he actually has pretty developed tertiary Fi.

I think his prior problems were more enneagram related. unhealthy type 8s are some of the most dangerous people on the planet and at their most unhealthy correlate with antisocial personality disorder. it would also explain his likeness to Patrick Bateman (another unhealthy INTJ 8). right now he's directing most of his energy towards business because it's the only thing hard and intense enough not to bore him (he is amazingly intelligent, although he refuses to admit it)