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"Feeling" & "Thinking"

edcoaching

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bleh, it's impossible to completely separate thinking and feeling anyway.

Actually, decision makers do it all the time. Read John Dewey's How We Think, the premise that underlies decisions in our culture. My bet his he preferred INTP, dominant Ti. His steps for the process?
  1. Location and definition of a problem through observation (really the Sensing function)
  2. Suggestion of possible solutions, suspending judgment while inference goes on (his Intuitive step)
  3. Determining the implications of each suggested solution (the Thinking function, as he only looks at objective factors)
  4. Further observation and experiment leading to acceptance or rejection of the solution

Note he leaves out the Feeling function. Isabel Myers, whose mother used Dewey's concepts to home school her, added the Feeling function to this process in her Introduction to Type: "Understand the impact on people."

A great way to separate T and F is to consider what a decision looks like when either one is ignored...I agree though that it's hard for INFJs to separate the two since they're their second and third functions, both extraverted. For me, I have two advanced degrees in disciplines that require logic and went to heavy science/math public schools, all wonderful venues for developing my Thinking side. But my first reaction is always the subjective side--Thinking comes later in the decision process...

edcoaching
 

Nocapszy

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Sure F is values. How do you suppose those values are determined though?
So is T.
So is S, and N.

For introverted functions.

Feeling's values are determined by what emotions are evoked by a given event.



The confusion in this thread comes from a T who's not thorough enough.
 

edcoaching

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Feeling's values are determined by what emotions are evoked by a given event.

This isn't my experience in working with the Feeling function in countless interventions and conflict resolution situations. It's much more about rationally thinking through how others will be affected by possible options. The values often come through conscious choice as well, not emotions. Thinking and Feeling were described by Jung as the rational functions--we have control over them. He felt we had less control over what we perceive, whether through the Sensing or Intuitive functions, and called them the irrational functions.

edcoaching
 

Orangey

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if you're consciously thinking about something being 'bad', you'll be much more likely to have an emotional reaction than if you think of something as 'false'.

example: when i solve a hard computer science problem, i figure out a few lines of code that hold 'true' to what my assignment was. but i don't react emotionally until i decide that it's 'good' that i solved the problem.

Wait...the only reason that it's good is because it was true (meaning it worked).

Okay, I think something needs to be cleared up here. Either we say that the feeling function has no more to do with emotion than thinking (meaning either that emotion influences both or neither), or we accept that emotion is the main influence of the feeling function and not the thinking function (or it could possibly influence the thinking function only, but I think we've ruled that out). If we accept the former, then it makes sense to say that "F" types are just as naturally capable of making rational decisions as "T" types, because their judging process would not be any more influenced by transient emotions (which are anathema to logic). If we accept the latter, then we have to admit that those who have feeling as a dominant function would be less naturally inclined to reasoning, and would therefore have to work harder at making logical decisions than someone with a dominant T preference.

Sorry to be annoying, I just don't seem to be able to grasp the subtlety of the difference between T and F.
 

redacted

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Determining the implications of each suggested solution (the Thinking function, as he only looks at objective factors)

it's impossible to only look at objective factors in practice, which was my point.

i mean, it's possible to separate them conceptually, but no human actually makes a conscious decision based on purely a T function or purely an F function.

Wait...the only reason that it's good is because it was true (meaning it worked).

it's good because it fits a value set. something true could be bad, too, given the value set.

Okay, I think something needs to be cleared up here. Either we say that the feeling function has no more to do with emotion than thinking (meaning either that emotion influences both or neither), or we accept that emotion is the main influence of the feeling function and not the thinking function (or it could possibly influence the thinking function only, but I think we've ruled that out). If we accept the former, then it makes sense to say that "F" types are just as naturally capable of making rational decisions as "T" types, because their judging process would not be any more influenced by transient emotions (which are anathema to logic). If we accept the latter, then we have to admit that those who have feeling as a dominant function would be less naturally inclined to reasoning, and would therefore have to work harder at making logical decisions than someone with a dominant T preference.

perceiving functions are how you unconsciously react to data, which would include emotional responses. so actual emotion lies in S and N. S and N also do all of the storage of data. so take INTJs and INFJs -- the stuff stored in their Nis will be different -- the Ni of an INFJ will be more oriented to value judgments. so their unconscious reaction to data (Ni) -- their emotional response, will be different than that of an INTJ.
 

Orangey

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perceiving functions are how you unconsciously react to data, which would include emotional responses. so actual emotion lies in S and N. S and N also do all of the storage of data. so take INTJs and INFJs -- the stuff stored in their Nis will be different -- the Ni of an INFJ will be more oriented to value judgments. so their unconscious reaction to data (Ni) -- their emotional response, will be different than that of an INTJ.

What does someone's "unconscious reaction to data" have to do with their judging function? Are you saying that Ni will function differently when conjoined with either Te or Fe?
 

Nocapszy

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This isn't my experience in working with the Feeling function in countless interventions and conflict resolution situations. It's much more about rationally thinking through how others will be affected by possible options. The values often come through conscious choice as well, not emotions. Thinking and Feeling were described by Jung as the rational functions--we have control over them. He felt we had less control over what we perceive, whether through the Sensing or Intuitive functions, and called them the irrational functions.

edcoaching

Feeling is rational as in rationale -- the reasoning. You're right in that respect.

In the same respect, conscious decision making doesn't have to be rational as in logical.
Until someone can come up with another source for the Feeling functions' values, I fail to see how F does not equal emotional.
 

redacted

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What does someone's "unconscious reaction to data" have to do with their judging function? Are you saying that Ni will function differently when conjoined with either Te or Fe?

yes, that's what i'm saying.

Ni is a perceiving function that unconsciously processes data in an abstract way, focused on the "internal standard", which is basically your current state of mind/current goals. (as opposed to Ne, which focuses on data from the external environment without filtering it through goals)

since introverted perceiving functions are goal oriented, and Fs focus more on value judgments than truth judgments, Ni will act differently with Fe than with Te. the "internal standard" is different.
 
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Thank you.

I'm a T and am quite emotional. However, this may have something to do with being a teenager.

It could also be that your identity hasn't cemented yet, since you're still a teenager. You may not still think you're an INTJ in 10 years.

This means that people that use F functions more are not necessarily any more emotional than people who use T functions more. Thinking preference does not mean supreme intelligence or Feeling preference supreme emotions.

Am I right in thinking this is sort of a veiled lecture directed at thinkers? It's not like feelers are prone to calling other feelers emotional or going on and on about how intelligent thinkers are.
 

Thursday

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Fe is much more different than Fi
so......
we should consider it on a more specific plane
the functions

F and T is too vague
 

Nocapszy

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yes, that's what i'm saying.

Ni is a perceiving function that unconsciously processes data in an abstract way, focused on the "internal standard", which is basically your current state of mind/current goals. (as opposed to Ne, which focuses on data from the external environment without filtering it through goals)

since introverted perceiving functions are goal oriented, and Fs focus more on value judgments than truth judgments, Ni will act differently with Fe than with Te. the "internal standard" is different.
The definition of an introverted intuition is set in stone as it is for all the functions. Ni doesn't really act differently, we just use what data comes in differently. Ni's product is where discrepancies and confusion come in. The functions are designed to be abstract specifically for the sake of avoiding confusion: If it's not one function, it must be the other, if not that, the next, etc.

It's come to my attention that a lot of typists (not just you dude -- even me sometimes I forget) blur the line between function use and function product.

The functions themselves are nothing but a skeleton. Personality (or whatever it is typology covers) is extruded through the functions - it's not comprised entirely by them.
 

redacted

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The definition of an introverted intuition is set in stone as it is for all the functions. Ni doesn't really act differently, we just use what data comes in differently. Ni's product is where discrepancies and confusion come in. The functions are designed to be abstract specifically for the sake of avoiding confusion: If it's not one function, it must be the other, if not that, the next, etc.

It's come to my attention that a lot of typists (not just you dude -- even me sometimes I forget) blur the line between function use and function product.

The functions themselves are nothing but a skeleton. Personality (or whatever it is typology covers) is extruded through the functions - it's not comprised entirely by them.

that's what i was trying to say, but i guess it wasn't quite clear.

Fe is much more different than Fi
so......
we should consider it on a more specific plane
the functions

F and T is too vague

F and T is not too vague.

feeling is conscious judgment of good/bad. thinking is conscious judgment of true/false. the definitions are clear.

introverted uses current mindset, extroverted uses current environment. but that's just a further specification.
 

Orangey

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that's what i was trying to say, but i guess it wasn't quite clear.

Then whether or not one uses Ni, Ne, Si, or Se is irrelevant to the issue of how Te, Ti, Fe, and Fi function in essence.
 

Thursday

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F and T is not too vague.

feeling is conscious judgment of good/bad. thinking is conscious judgment of true/false. the definitions are clear.

introverted uses current mindset, extroverted uses current environment. but that's just a further specification.

right
which is why i think it should be included
from the looks of it, you all have beat me to it

eh
 

redacted

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Then whether or not one uses Ni, Ne, Si, or Se is irrelevant to the issue of how Te, Ti, Fe, and Fi function in essence.

well the functions are all clearly and separately defined. and they all work exactly how they're defined.

but the actual output of Ni is gonna be different from an INTJ to an INFJ because the internal standard is different. (true with extroverted functions as well)

the point i was trying to make is that being an F doesn't directly make you more emotional. but since being an F affects perception (which includes emotion), it indirectly makes you more likely to be emotional.
 

Orangey

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Feeling is rational as in rationale -- the reasoning. You're right in that respect.

In the same respect, conscious decision making doesn't have to be rational as in logical.
Until someone can come up with another source for the Feeling functions' values, I fail to see how F does not equal emotional.

It takes another step, however, to say that F's basis in emotion (the emotional basis of values) outputs more emotional behavior. Because someone holds a value system that is based in emotion doesn't mean that any given decision that they make using said system will be emotional/create an emotional reaction.
 

Orangey

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well the functions are all clearly and separately defined. and they all work exactly how they're defined.

but the actual output of Ni is gonna be different from an INTJ to an INFJ because the internal standard is different. (true with extroverted functions as well)

the point i was trying to make is that being an F doesn't directly make you more emotional. but since being an F affects perception (which includes emotion), it indirectly makes you more likely to be emotional.

But if being an F affects perception, then perception will act differently for F's than for T's.

If we're talking about the output of perception, then it is not perception that creates the difference, but T or F. So if someone is an F, then that is the factor that directly influences the output, making it different from T. So yes, it is being an F that directly makes one more emotional.
 

redacted

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But if being an F affects perception, then perception will act differently for F's than for T's.

If we're talking about the output of perception, then it is not perception that creates the difference, but T or F. So if someone is an F, then that is the factor that directly influences the output, making it different from T. So yes, it is being an F that directly makes one more emotional.

i don't know how you're defining perception.

the way i'm using it is this -- everything that is not deductive good/bad or true/false judgments is perception.

perception is a storage system, an input system, an engine for induction and comparison, gut feelings, hunches, etc.

i'm having a hard time explaining this point, but i'll try again...

Ni is defined as abstract perception focused on an internal standard. this holds true for both INTJs and INFJs. but the internal standard itself (which is stored in Ni), will be different for INTJs and INFJs. so their Nis will have different outputs. (when i'm using the word output, i mean the actual output of the specific function Ni BEFORE it gets sent to a judging function)

T and F do not directly cause emotion. they are just pure deductive reasoning.
 

Orangey

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i don't know how you're defining perception.

the way i'm using it is this -- everything that is not deductive good/bad or true/false judgments is perception.

perception is a storage system, an input system, an engine for induction and comparison, gut feelings, hunches, etc.

i'm having a hard time explaining this point, but i'll try again...

Ni is defined as abstract perception focused on an internal standard. this holds true for both INTJs and INFJs. but the internal standard itself (which is stored in Ni), will be different for INTJs and INFJs. so their Nis will have different outputs. (when i'm using the word output, i mean the actual output of the specific function Ni BEFORE it gets sent to a judging function)

T and F do not directly cause emotion. they are just pure deductive reasoning.

But if we don't account for the difference in "internal standard" by saying that the T or F caused it, then why are the Ni's different? They must have different internal standards directly because of the preference for F or T.
 

redacted

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yes, T and F directly affect the internal standard. i guess we got caught up in semantics :)
 
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