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At what point do you stop trying to grow and just accept your type?

Usehername

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After years of practicing social graces, and to some level, mastering their employment when I consciously choose to do so, I can't seem to recalibrate my default setting.

A few days ago a very respectable lecturer flown in from out of state stopped his presentation mid-sentence to say, "you look like you have a lot of critiques . . . do we need to pause because I'm missing a gaping hole in my logic? You're making me nervous!"

He is definitely my superior (incidentally, also an NTJ), but my natural concentrating face was so unnerving that he had to pause and say something.

Do I continue to make a conscious effort to turn on the social graces for my 40 hour facetime, or can I just say, "I gave it my best effort, and I'll employ my learned skills when necessary, but I need to accept that this is me."

?
 

Xyk

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I think it probably depends partly on how old you are and partly some other stuff I can't say with certainty. For instance, I'm 18 and only discovered mbti sometime last year (?). I thought something was deeply wrong with me because I couldn't focus on anything for any significant duration and because I felt really detached from my environment and other people. It turned out a full ~1-2% of people (INTPs) had the same problem. Now I'm thinking that's just who I am, and I am so relieved.
 

Coriolis

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Usehername said:
At what point do you stop trying to grow and just accept your type?

Accepting your type and continuing to grow are not mutually exclusive. Everyone should continue to grow, in whatever way is most beneficial and fulfilling for them. But working to become a different type is not productive growth, it is more like self-delusion. As you mention, mastering a basic set of non-preferred skills for use when you consider it helpful is the way to go. As we get older and experience more in life, we may get a bit better with some of these, or even add new ones to the toolbox. As long as we continue to do this, there is nothing wrong with being comfortable in who we are fundamentally.

BTW, how did you respond to the lecturer? I would have said simply, "no, not at all; please continue", assuming I really didn't have a critique or question.
 

lunalum

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You got the order mixed up.

Accept your type first, then grow from it second :yes:
 

rav3n

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If you've been working on your social graces it might feel like a setback and kind of mortifying if someone did this in public. If anyone lacked social graces, as well as being insecure, it was the lecturer since you weren't heckling him or doing anything to disturb the continuity of his lecture.

As far as growth is concerned, please don't stop growing. Stagnation is worse than death.
 

Thalassa

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Um, I think that accepting the natural gifts and limitations of your type are important. It's helped me tremendously to accept the fact that I am NFP, and am, to my relief, not failing at life just because I didn't grow up to be an ESTJ or an INTP.

That being said, we can always grow as human beings, to aspire to be a better developed version of our own type - rather than trying to grow into a another type. That's the difference.

We have to accept who we are and make the best of it. There's a lot of wisdom in doing that.
 

Kalach

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After years of practicing social graces, and to some level, mastering their employment when I consciously choose to do so, I can't seem to recalibrate my default setting.

A few days ago a very respectable lecturer flown in from out of state stopped his presentation mid-sentence to say, "you look like you have a lot of critiques . . . do we need to pause because I'm missing a gaping hole in my logic? You're making me nervous!"

He is definitely my superior (incidentally, also an NTJ), but my natural concentrating face was so unnerving that he had to pause and say something.

Do I continue to make a conscious effort to turn on the social graces for my 40 hour facetime, or can I just say, "I gave it my best effort, and I'll employ my learned skills when necessary, but I need to accept that this is me."

?

Did you not want to talk with the guy? Social graces could have ensured you an innocuous enough appearance that he didn't even know you were there. Which one were you going for?

What if that lecturer was offering a social graces opportunity...

"Ya make me nervus, missy"
"Why, its yer ideaz, mister."
"How's that, turtledove?"
"They make me all.... sweaty."

Etc.

A social exchange. A graceless exchange, to be sure, but an exchange... and likely not unpoised if performed well.
 

Red Herring

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Hmm, I think there is a difference between learning social graces (as a useful survival skill) and growing emotionally, as a person by discovering the pleasures of other people's company.

The graces thing is just a code you can learn by observation that society uses to run more smoothly; learning and applying this is not betraying who you are but a soft skill that makes life easier for yourself and others. Use it when you need it, but KNOW when you need it.
Developing decent Fe is more than that, if I understand it correctly. It is about connecting with other people, about empathy and your social instinct.

I am 5w4 sp/so and constantly torn between the desire to be left alone by the world and just do my thing and a certain need for social harmony. For a long time that meant caving in to just about anything in order to avoid conflict and not get sucked up by some emotional vortex. I was taught that if I played nice, the world would repay me in kind. Only that I forgot to grow a spine in the process. That is what I would call very rudimentary Fe.
I have now started to get into the finer aspects of it: defending my own interests (or juggling them with other people's interests) and it has helped me to become more social and enjoy other people's company more. Because the weight of having to please everybody without even having a clue about half of what is going on is now off my shoulders. My interaction with others has improved considerably because of this.

My little sister is an ISFP and, in many respects, my complete opposite. She visited me this weekend and it was fascinating to see the world with her eyes. It drains em to turn on Se for too long, for example, but watching her play sports in the sun on a lawn by the river and clearly enjoy herself so much opened my eyes to a world of pleasures that I usually ignore and that are there for the taking. Also, being Fi, she knows exactly what she likes and dislikes, what she values, what she abhores and what she wants for herself and her life. I admire that and can only learn from it.

Where am I going with all of this? I would say that this developement is a mixture of accepting who you are (detachment is not a desease you must or can fight by raping yourself) and developing new skills or aspects of yourself. And it improves your quality of life if you do it right.
 

King sns

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The funny thing is that I picture you with a very serious and focused face. Like you're taking a test all the time.

Anyway, It never hurts to try to be better, even if you can only keep it up for a short period of time. I think if you truly want to change, be a more rounded person, than over time you can change, (even if it's only slightly better than your baseline.)
 
R

RDF

Guest
After years of practicing social graces, and to some level, mastering their employment when I consciously choose to do so, I can't seem to recalibrate my default setting.[...]

As I understand this statement, you've gotten good at appearing more approachable or friendly or whatever when you consciously practice your social skills, but when you relax and go to unconscious default mode, you fall back into old habits--apparently some sort of ferocious scowl, based on your anecdote.

First off, congrats on mastering your conscious social skills. That's a big accomplishment by itself.

As for your look when you're not paying attention to your appearance (unconscious "default mode"), I've been working on this as well. You don't mention what measures you've taken to attack this problem, so I'll describe what I've done in my case. It'll sound a little silly, but maybe it'll contain something you can use.

Anyway, I've found that it's not enough to simply forbid yourself to do something; you have to adopt a new goal and build yourself up to it. For example, it's difficult to simply tell yourself that you want to practice better posture and simply remember to stand up straight when standing around in public. A better approach is to adopt a whole new "look" or attitude: Find a balance point further back on your heels, throw your shoulders back and down, tuck your head back and chin down, and rock on your heels or bob up and down a little bit on your knees like a bored mafioso. :) Instead of simply banning something (bad posture), you build a whole new positive body awareness to play with. And at first it feels strange, but eventually it feels more and more natural over time to unconsiously seek and fall into that new posture.

The military does this. They don't just ban bad posture; they give you a whole new body awareness to play with: shoulders back, chest out, and all that. And any ex-military person will tell you: it works. Same with dancing or whatever.

So to me, success in this respect is just a question of taking the right approach. Don't just ban the scowl. Build a whole new facial posture to aspire to and fall into, in place of the old fierce scowl. If you're attending presentations, then study how you sit and how that affects your head position. Then study your scowl. Look at the scowls of famous actors and actresses. For example, extend your scowl out at the sides and bring up your lower lip a touch, push your chin forward, maybe arch one side of the upper lip a touch, and you can have a very mobile, changeable type of scowl like De Niro. Not at all forbidding, but plenty of attitude and plenty of expression if you do it right. And it's easy to play with it and fall into unconsciously over time.
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...QG20-nWCw&sqi=2&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1536&bih=892

Again, it sounds silly. But my point is this: Don't just ban the old; build something new to fall into. It'll probably mean spending some time in front of the mirror seeing what works for you. And then spend some time really looking at favorite actors and actresses on TV and in movies. They spend a lot of time in front of the mirror honing their look and making it natural/unconscious. (Example: Clint Eastwood was a non-smoker, but the nasty taste of cheroots caused his face to screw up perfectly for his Western roles, so he made them part of his act.) Borrow the tricks of the pros and make like a favorite actor or actress. Create a whole new facial attitude, something you can play with in bored moments and then fall into naturally over time.
http://www.soundonsight.org/throwback-clint-eastwood/
 

Lethe

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You got the order mixed up.

Accept your type first, then grow from it second.

Agreed! Acceptance, IMO, means that someone acknowledges the presence of the template, the mold, they start out with (a presence they may see time again and again, each moment they start anew). They are not required like it, but it also doesn't mean that the default settings will predetermine how things would ultimately end. That's for the individual to decide.

Usehername said:
Do I continue to make a conscious effort to turn on the social graces for my 40 hour facetime, or can I just say, "I gave it my best effort, and I'll employ my learned skills when necessary, but I need to accept that this is me."

For an example, it's not enough to be a "FJ" or naturally diplomatic to excel at social graces. Sure it may help initially, though to keep being "good", one has to practice them all the time -- constantly tackling new challenges and changing old ways.

The thing I noticed about the field of social graces is that something, somewhere, will always throw you off at one point. And you will suddenly find yourself back at square one. I don't think it indicates all your prior efforts are meaningless, it just means that you have something new to learn and add to your existing knowledge.

It's not exactly a negative thing -- in fact, I can't think of any incident that is more suited for growing, other than finding out unknown unknowns, and that you're more naive than you thought you were.

As far as growth is concerned, please don't stop growing. Stagnation is worse than death.

:yes:

Usehername said:
At what point do you stop trying to grow and just accept your type?

To answer your question though, my personal take is trying to recalibrate one's default settings is largely unnecessary, and a waste of resources. New patterns, thoughts and behaviors will emerge on its own anyway, possibly replacing the previous ones, when given enough input, experiences and feedback.

You also can't truly predict when you'll have an "a-ha", transformational moment; you just have to keep exposing yourself to a wide range of diverse ideas and hope for the best. If something doesn't stick, then it probably doesn't hold enough meaning for you. At least not yet. Don't force the meaning, instead look for another one that prompts you to say, "Yes! That's it!". Natural emergence will give you higher quality, and longer-lasting resources to work with in the end.

Always try new things whenever you want different results. Maybe you've reached a point where your old strategy isn't working as well as it once did.

==================
*Edit-

FineLine also brings up a good point. (Bolded) here:

FineLine said:
Anyway, I've found that it's not enough to simply forbid yourself to do something; you have to adopt a new goal and build yourself up to it. For example, it's difficult to simply tell yourself that you want to practice better posture and simply remember to stand up straight when standing around in public. A better approach is to adopt a whole new "look" or attitude: Find a balance point further back on your heels, throw your shoulders back and down, tuck your head back and chin down, and rock on your heels or bob up and down a little bit on your knees like a bored mafioso. Instead of simply banning something (bad posture), you build a whole new positive body awareness to play with. And at first it feels strange, but eventually it feels more and more natural over time to unconsiously seek and fall into that new posture.

To expand on this, Bruce Lee phrases the idea eloquently, "Remember, you are expressing the techniques and not doing the techniques. If somebody attacks you, your response is not Technique No.1, Stance No. 2, Section 4, Paragraph 5."

When one testing out unfamiliar techniques, the best way to start is to simply roll with what they have -- those default settings. It doesn't matter if they're doing it all wrong at first, because before one can tinker with anything, they have to know where they initially stand. Try out everything, every single movement, even if it feels awkward and wrong. And that's the point. To bridge a connection between what's strange, and what you're comfortable with. It's all a diagnostic, really. Later, you can take on a more rationale approach, and fix/critique your 'movements'.

Knowledge is a co-creative act; you have to be an active participant. Which means, after experimenting and gaining some basic skills, you should practice them as if you believe them, and even add your own spin. Find ways to push that information deeper and deeper into your existing cognitive map, to the point where you can recreate the information without being pushed.

If social graces is your aim, and you want this to be a part of your default settings, then it ought to be more than just a means to another end, it should be a way of life, an enjoyable experience. Your whole mind has to agree that a portion of it is valuable enough to be integrated in their system.

For an example, maintaining a healthy lifestyle is easier (and more rewarding) for an athlete because of the benefits it offers in their activities. When they're not doing that, they may feel some discomfort because that behavior is so ingrained within their attitude. But for the typical potato couches, why not? Actually, they'd rather miss the gym today, and get back to it tomorrow. The subconscious part of themselves aren't convinced that the hard changes are important enough. The solution? Keep finding new reasons to be convinced.

==================

Some people will think this is overwhelming, and perhaps overreaching, if they're merely aiming to be decent. Luckily enough, you don't have to be 100% committed or passionate to start anything new.

Instead, seek out people and places that harbor the mindset you want to develop. Let the interest and commitment gradually build over time. Sometimes, I would just listen to people speak, without intending to respond back. I'd try to imagine what's going on in their heads, even using their "lens" to briefly experience the world and occasionally observing the dynamics of their presence -- tone, posture, facial expressions, movement, etc. If I see anything I like, then I'd take that back and attempt to make sense out of it. Every so often, I get a weird sensation that what I've just seen, cannot be unseen. :shock:

Usehername said:
A few days ago a very respectable lecturer flown in from out of state stopped his presentation mid-sentence to say, "you look like you have a lot of critiques . . . do we need to pause because I'm missing a gaping hole in my logic? You're making me nervous!"

BTW, it's funny that you mention how your "natural concentrating face" puts the instructor at unease, because I've been told the same thing many times before. I do this a lot without realizing it. To even out my glare, I would spend an extra minute or two relaxing my face each time I frowned. It got to the point where I could control "The Glare" much better. I still have my "natural concentrating face", but it appears out of nowhere less frequently. :)

So it's not always possible to predict (or control) the conditions of your mood and responses, but you can always add little things to spin it around, and to make it a bit different. :D Do it enough times, and this might change the behavior altogether.

If you're working on scowling less, for instance, then no unexpected scowl should distract you from your goal. Allow yourself to feel surprise, yet take it as it is, and figure out what minor changes you can do so long as it's sitting there.

This is what acceptance means from my perspective. That's not the same thing as resignation. :yes:
 
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skylights

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^ this is an impressive and very insightful post :)

i just think i accept the things that make me happy, and try to change what makes me frustrated. that doesn't necessarily mean learning how to change the tendency, but learning how to work around it.

for example, i tend to set up failsafes for myself. as a P, i tend to be last-minute. i try to curb this, but it seems extraordinarily difficult. so i keep an extra set of clothes, shoes, a hairbrush, and some money in the car. i set my clocks a little too far forward, so i err on the side of running early. i set multiple alarms in the morning. i use schedules and make lists. i keep a little notepad in my bag because i know that if i don't write things down, they will evaporate into the ether.

i also adapt to meet the people i'm with... when i'm with a J i can be more relaxed, because i know they will keep an eye on things. when i'm with another P, i have to be more on top of things to meet my own standards.

in the case of the presentation, usehername, i think that's really sort of up to how you feel about it. if it bothers you, then you can try working on it. practicing relaxing your facial muscles might help. but it sounds like your superior was not particularly graceful about the whole situation himself... most people tend to look more critical when they're concentrating hard (i've judged enough music performances to be well aware) - and i don't know why he would say that, really. it seems fairly awkward to me.
 
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