Fixing the Enneagram System

[Savage Idealist]

I've done a lot of thinking, I've mulled over the ideas behind it, I've wondered about for a while, and I've come to a conclusion.

The enneagram is a complete and utter pile of shit.

It is a non-sensical system built in an overconvulted way, with logical holes in it's framework, baffeling in it's design, quite frankly I think it needs a lot of re-adjusting.

Alright for one, the current order of the types makes no sense, considering that certain types can "wing" into others, yet cannot "wing" into any not ajacent to it. For example 2 and 9 can both wing into 1, yet 2 and 9, despite sharing utter similarities (I have seen people who could easily express aspects of thier personality that was both super chill and super helpful) cannot be paired with one another. This makes no damn sense, who the hell said that a person couldn't be primarily five, yet wing into one? I've known plenty of people who were analytical yet somewhat perfectionist, but in no way security or emotionall oriented. Thus types should be able to wing into each other one.

The tri-type could theoretically fix the problem stated above, but it to does not make sense. I mean it's based off head, heart, and gut triads. The hell are those suppose to mean? I mean I can see four as being part of the heart (as it is the most emotional types) but why the hell is 7, a type concerned with having fun, placed in the head group? What about it is thinking or logically oreinted? 1 is much more rationalistic and decisive, it should be in the head group. Hell 8 should be there too, and 6 and 2 should be in the gut group with 9. I fanything it should look like this:

Head: 1, 5, 6,
Heart: 3, 4, 7,
Gut: 2, 6, 9,

And where is the evidence that stressed people of one type can look like another? 1's looklike 5's when stressed, but 6's look like 2's, I'm sorry, who the hell came up with those idiotic assertions? Where's the evidence that people of type x act like people of type y when stressed in such a way? Until the systems are built better and tested then these personality theories are never going to be taken seriously in the scientific community.

 

[Curator]

have you ever thought that maybe the groupings arent the way you think they should be (for the tri-types) because you are perceiving them much differently than the categories where meant to be? why CANT 7 be a head type? why does a "head" type have to have anything to do with logical thinking? maybe it only speaks of a certain frame of mind? in which case 7 could easily fit that... not personally, i dont care about enneagram that much, im not even that into it, especially compared to some ive seen, but your arguments against it have about as much holes as you claim the system has, and considering its supposedly based on some kind of ancient mystical spiritual stuff, I am not surprised that it can be a bit inaccurate for some...

I also remember reading some where that many believe one can have ANYTHING as a wing whether its on either side or not... although for me, with 2, my second score on there, it wouldnt make sense as a a wing for me, as although some of the general stuff sounded kind of like me, nothing else about it made any sense when I got into the details, the loops, the levels... none of that applied to me at all... and only a bit of the general description... then again, I relate a bit to at least a small amount of every description, but apparently, as a 9, thats normal for me,lol

 

[Eric B]

What I've long suggested is that the instinctual variants, social, self preservation and sexual, are three distinct areas of personal interaction, corresponding to FIRO's. Inclusion, Control and Affection, which cover social, leadership and relationship skills. In FIRO (and the derivative APS temperament system, as in my signature), a separate temperament in each area is stacked into a whole profile. In Enneagram, you can only be one type, with the variants stacked in comparison to each others.

If they allowed stacking of different types according to the variants, then you could be a blend of non-adjacent types without the wing system, or those tri-systems that still fix you to particular other types. It would explain in which area of interaction you are each type.

 

[garbage]

It is a non-sensical system built in an overconvulted way, with logical holes in it's framework
...
Until the systems are built better and tested then these personality theories are never going to be taken seriously in the scientific community.

I agree with both of these things

The Enneagram would be much better if its explanatory power was limited to just "The Enneagram is like a map. There are 9 types, and you have aspects of all of them inside of you, but the map could tell you that your starting point is near one of the types. This map can be used for personal development and, to a certain extent, a potential guide to the types of cognitive biases that you may see in yourself and other people."

...just as the MBTI would be much better if its explanatory power was limited to just "The MBTI is like a map. There are 16 types across four dichotomies, and you have aspects of all of them inside of you, but the map could tell you that your starting point is near one of the types. This map can be used for personal development and, to a certain extent, a potential guide to the types of cognitive biases that you may see in yourself and other people."

Thankfully, that's pretty much exactly how the Enneagram and MBTI are used by the general populace in the first place.

If you want to explain cognition with an intricate system, great. Having an underlying theory is fine, but there comes a time when you must stop development of your conceptual model for a while and actually start validating it.

 

[guesswho]

The enneagram is a complete and utter pile of shit.

That was my conclusion too.

 

[Elfboy]

I've done a lot of thinking, I've mulled over the ideas behind it, I've wondered about for a while, and I've come to a conclusion.

The enneagram is a complete and utter pile of shit.

It is a non-sensical system built in an overconvulted way, with logical holes in it's framework, baffeling in it's design, quite frankly I think it needs a lot of re-adjusting.

Alright for one, the current order of the types makes no sense, considering that certain types can "wing" into others, yet cannot "wing" into any not ajacent to it. For example 2 and 9 can both wing into 1, yet 2 and 9, despite sharing utter similarities (I have seen people who could easily express aspects of thier personality that was both super chill and super helpful) cannot be paired with one another. This makes no damn sense, who the hell said that a person couldn't be primarily five, yet wing into one? I've known plenty of people who were analytical yet somewhat perfectionist, but in no way security or emotionall oriented. Thus types should be able to wing into each other one.

The tri-type could theoretically fix the problem stated above, but it to does not make sense. I mean it's based off head, heart, and gut triads. The hell are those suppose to mean? I mean I can see four as being part of the heart (as it is the most emotional types) but why the hell is 7, a type concerned with having fun, placed in the head group? What about it is thinking or logically oreinted? 1 is much more rationalistic and decisive, it should be in the head group. Hell 8 should be there too, and 6 and 2 should be in the gut group with 9. I fanything it should look like this:

Head: 1, 5, 6,
Heart: 3, 4, 7,
Gut: 2, 6, 9,
And where is the evidence that stressed people of one type can look like another? 1's looklike 5's when stressed, but 6's look like 2's, I'm sorry, who the hell came up with those idiotic assertions? Where's the evidence that people of type x act like people of type y when stressed in such a way? Until the systems are built better and tested then these personality theories are never going to be taken seriously in the scientific community.

I see it more like this
Gut: 7, 8, 9
Head: 1, 5, 6
Heart: 2, 3, 4

I agree with the wing thing though. I would be an 8w1 or 1w8 if that was possible

 

[skylights]

i also find the nature of the numbers odd.

the best explanation i have found is:

1 father archetype
2 mother archetype
3 child archetype
4 second child archetype
5 observer archetype (as child prepares to peer bond)
6 peer archetype (cliquing)
7 gatekeeper archetype (something about how 7s decide what's cool. not sure i understand)
8 adult archetype
9 essence archetype

it sort of makes sense, but doesn't work particularly well with head-heart-gut divisions.

also -

The modern concept of the Seven Deadly Sins is linked to the works of the 4th century monk Evagrius Ponticus, who listed eight evil thoughts in Greek as follows:
Γαστριμαργία (gastrimargia) - gluttony
Πορνεία (porneia) - lust
Φιλαργυρία (philargyria) - greed
Λύπη (lypē) - despair
Ὀργή (orgē) - wrath
Ἀκηδία (akēdia) - sloth
Κενοδοξία (kenodoxia) - vainglory (unjustified pride - overinflated self-esteem)
Ὑπερηφανία (hyperēphania) - hubris (arrogance - not correlated to high self-esteem. more about hostility.)

they can be grouped in 3:

lustful appetite: gluttony, lust, greed
irascibility: wrath
intellect: vainglory, despair, pride, sloth

is it just me, or does that sound like feeling, instinct, and intellect? as in heart, gut, head?

 

[Savage Idealist]

Originally posted by Curator
have you ever thought that maybe the groupings arent the way you think they should be (for the tri-types) because you are perceiving them much differently than the categories where meant to be? why CANT 7 be a head type? why does a "head" type have to have anything to do with logical thinking? maybe it only speaks of a certain frame of mind? in which case 7 could easily fit that... not personally, i dont care about enneagram that much, im not even that into it, especially compared to some ive seen, but your arguments against it have about as much holes as you claim the system has, and considering its supposedly based on some kind of ancient mystical spiritual stuff, I am not surprised that it can be a bit inaccurate for some...

Because when I think of head, heart, and gut, I am, as most others would, going to associate them with my preconceived notions of what those terms mean. Head is suppose to be logical and rational, making decisions based off of evidence, facts, and logic. 7 though is all about having fun, about fullfilling base urges and being satisfyed. Therefore it logically doesn't make any sense being in the logical category considering that it isn't even rational of thinking at all.

I also remember reading some where that many believe one can have ANYTHING as a wing whether its on either side or not... although for me, with 2, my second score on there, it wouldnt make sense as a a wing for me, as although some of the general stuff sounded kind of like me, nothing else about it made any sense when I got into the details, the loops, the levels... none of that applied to me at all... and only a bit of the general description... then again, I relate a bit to at least a small amount of every description, but apparently, as a 9, thats normal for me,lol

May I ask where you read something mentioning how people can wing into non-ajacent types?

Originally posted by Eric B
What I've long suggested is that the instinctual variants, social, self preservation and sexual, are three distinct areas of personal interaction, corresponding to FIRO's. Inclusion, Control and Affection, which cover social, leadership and relationship skills. In FIRO (and the derivative APS temperament system, as in my signature), a separate temperament in each area is stacked into a whole profile. In Enneagram, you can only be one type, with the variants stacked in comparison to each others.

If they allowed stacking of different types according to the variants, then you could be a blend of non-adjacent types without the wing system, or those tri-systems that still fix you to particular other types. It would explain in which area of interaction you are each type

Never heard of FIRO, think I'll look into that.

Originally posted by bologna
The Enneagram would be much better if its explanatory power was limited to just "The Enneagram is like a map. There are 9 types, and you have aspects of all of them inside of you, but the map could tell you that your starting point is near one of the types. This map can be used for personal development and, to a certain extent, a potential guide to the types of cognitive biases that you may see in yourself and other people."

That would be an excellent idea.

Originally posted by guesswho
That was my conclusion too.

yep.

Originally posted by Elfboy
I see it more like this
Gut: 7, 8, 9
Head: 1, 5, 6
Heart: 2, 3, 4

Actually, that makes more sense, 7 is definitely more gut and 2 is more heart.

I agree with the wing thing though. I would be an 8w1 or 1w8 if that was possible

Same here, I should be a 4w9 or 6w4, or something like that.

 

[Arclight]

The nine points of the enneagram can be mapped into nine distinct human personality patterns. Each pattern perceives world and self in a fundamentally different way. Each pattern has a different set of distinctive talents and traps. Each has its own way of falling into imbalance, and its own way of ascending to transcendent spiritual awakening.
Although every human has all the talents and traps of all nine patterns, each of us is most compelled by the traits of one type, which is our most natural way of being.
The challenge is to avoid falling into the traps. The opportunity is to let the talents manifest in spontaneous, inspired, creative ways.

The enneagram is a model that necessarily simplifies the vast complexity of personality. But the model can be refined, polished, and tuned, until deeper and deeper levels of detail become visible.

One useful refinement is to subdivide each of the nine types into two sub-flavors reflecting the two adjacent types, which are called wing types. This is possible because a person's personality type is not a single number, but rather a highly precise combination of two adjacent types. Each one of us lives at a spot somewhere on the edge of the circle, and most of us are not exactly on top of one of the points, but rather somewhere between two adjacent points.

There is much difference between the two subflavors of each basic type. In particular, it is useful to notice how the differing stress and balance points of the wing affect the overall flavor of each type, making the highly integrated and highly stressed states distinctly different for the two wing-flavors.

In each of the levels of mental-emotional balance, a person of type six may outwardly resemble a person of similar level of balance who is a four, an eight, or someone between one and two. The blue lines, called lines of resonance, reflect these possible outward similarities.

In times of stress or confusion, a six may experience the psychological traps of an unbalanced three. The red line, called the line of disintegration, reflects this tendency.

In times of balance and clarity, a six has an opportunity to experience the best qualities of a balanced nine. The green line, called the line of integration, reflects this opportunity.

http://www.mindheart.org/junction/oldcj/ep/types/index.html

 

[Curator]

SI, I read it all over the net in various places, I honestly dont remember any specific examples, but as i said, I read that some people BELIEVE you can wing with non-adjacent types, not that the system says its ok, it seems to just be a user Mod, hehehe

 

[Viridian]

I'm not sure, but I think Magic Poriferan tried to modify the wing system in another thread...

 

[Kasper]

Because 7s strengths and weaknesses are about the head, not instinct or feelings, why do you presume that loving fun precludes that?

The nature of their potential problem begins with one of their strongest assets—their agile minds. Type Seven’s thinking is quick and mercurial, they are curious, easily stimulated, and eager for new ideas and experiences. However, to the degree that they are anxious about themselves or their lives, is the degree to which their minds race out of control, leading them into a widening circle of unfocused behaviors. There is a powerful link in Sevens between their thinking and their doing. If they entertain an idea about an activity which is interesting and enjoyable to them, as soon as possible, they want to do it. Ultimately, their minds are speeding along about two steps ahead of them, and they are moving fairly quickly! They tend to spin out of control trying to realize all of their ideas, in a search for satisfying experiences and happiness.
From EI

Dunno about other 7s but I sure have a major tendency to over think, and then to use action to attempt to stop that.

Because when I think of head, heart, and gut, I am, as most others would, going to associate them with my preconceived notions of what those terms mean. Head is suppose to be logical and rational, making decisions based off of evidence, facts, and logic. 7 though is all about having fun, about fullfilling base urges and being satisfyed. Therefore it logically doesn't make any sense being in the logical category considering that it isn't even rational of thinking at all.

You're mixing terminology, head is about thinking sure, but not in the same manner that MBTI means it. Thinking doesn't mean logical, it just means thinking.

Another way of viewing it:

Sevens have anxiety about their inner world. There are feelings of pain, loss, deprivation, and general anxiety that Sevens would like to stay clear of as much as possible. To cope with these feelings, Sevens keep their minds occupied with exciting possibilities and options— as long as they have something stimulating to anticipate, Sevens feel that they can distract themselves from their fears.

Using the emotional reactions can you see how shame is feeling based, anxiety is thinking base and rage is about instincts?

 

[Thunderbringer]

Precisely, Kasper. While I agree that wings and intergration/disintegration points (especially these) are very arbitrary, I think each type fits into their respective triad quite well. The reason why a 7 is a head type is because 7's devote their energy, according to e-theory, to running away from boredom or pain that they may either be experiencing or perceiving that comes internally from their minds. This is the parallel to 5's, who instead of running away from inner turmoil, escape from external terrors by retreating inside their minds. In both cases, both 5's and 7's are fixated on "head" issues; 5's too much on it and 7's too little.

I am reminded of a 7 poster (either on this site or another one) who said that he hated the feeling of parties coming to an end and would always be one of the last to leave because he knew that if he was alone, he would start getting depressed and focusing on things he didn't want to. 7's know their anxieties and problems, yet they want to escape it via external means which is why they're a head type, not necessarily a "logical" type.

Similarly, 1's aren't head types at all because although they can be extremely rational and logical, they aren't fixated on their "head" at all, instead, they focus on doing things as right as possible and to keep their emotions and actions in check. In fact, the reason why they seem so logical and rational is BECAUSE of their fixation on their guts. Similar to 7's who want to focus as little as possible on their head, so do 1's want to focus as little as possible on their base instincts. Whereas 8's are easily comfortable expressing these instincts, 1's are not and would rather hold in their expressions and try to rationalize them.

 

[Noon]

Yeah, the head/heart/gut triads are supposed to reflect something like a damaged or distorted relationship with that element, where the most stress and tension and conflict reside, not where the strong area is.

e.g. 8s overuse the gut elements [instinct, action, anger], 1s suppress or constrict them, 9s are out of touch with them. 4s focus excessively on the heart elements [feelings, identity, shame], 2s avoid them, and 3s are out of touch with them. 5s rely excessively on their minds, 6s are conflicted within their minds, and 7s either attempt to rise above their minds or flee from the limitations that may come with them.

Another reason for why 7 is considered a head type, I think, is because 7 is described as not truly experiencing all that they are chasing, or else being dissatisfied with it because it does not live up to their ideals. They are really chasing their mental visions and seeking for "reality to align with them".

Alright for one, the current order of the types makes no sense, considering that certain types can "wing" into others, yet cannot "wing" into any not ajacent to it. For example 2 and 9 can both wing into 1, yet 2 and 9, despite sharing utter similarities (I have seen people who could easily express aspects of thier personality that was both super chill and super helpful) cannot be paired with one another. This makes no damn sense, who the hell said that a person couldn't be primarily five, yet wing into one? I've known plenty of people who were analytical yet somewhat perfectionist, but in no way security or emotionall oriented. Thus types should be able to wing into each other one.

2 and 9 are both positive outlook types and thus "resemble" each other, 5 and 1 are both competency oriented ("rational" perfectionist) types and thus "resemble" each other. Really, there are so many ways to group the 9 types and so many factors that tie in to each type that it's both amusing and annoying.

I don't much like wings, but... I think the type is a motivator and the wing is merely a behavioral/coping influence. Which is to say I think all 5s are 5s no matter the wing, and all 5s tend to be analytical and perfectionist. I think too much importance is given to the wing.

 

[Thunderbringer]

In this thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/47315-freudian-theory-enneagram.html

someone tries to explain the validity of the wing theory, which actually makes sense in its own way.