• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Jungian functions and the brain

TaylorS

Aspie Idealist
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
365
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
972
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I've been reading a lot on neuroscience and neuroanatomy lately and the 8 functions seem to be associated with particular regions of the brain.

Each cerebral hemisphere is divided in into 4 lobes; Frontal, Parietal, Temporal and Occipital. The frontal lobes are the home of the motor cortex, where voluntary movements are triggered. The parietal lobes are the home of the somatosensory (touch and body position) cortex, the temporal lobes are the home of the auditory (sound) cortex, and the occipital lobes are the home of the visual cortex; these are where sensory information is first processed. This suggests a basic split between action (T/F) in the front and perception (S/N) in the back.

In the areas not part of motor or sensory cortex ares the areas of association cortex, where sensory data is analyzed and compared with one's memories and factual knowledge and then manipulated and sent to the motor cortex. It is these association areas, IMO, in which where we can find the neurological correlations of Jung's functions. The association areas are the pre-frontal cortex (PFC), the parietal association cortex (PAC) and the temporal association cortex (TAC). The the pre-frontal cortex can be further divided into the dorsal-lateral (top) PFC and orbital-frontal (bottom) PFC.


PFC: Planning, self-control, manipulating mental images, motivation, short-term memory

PAC: analyzing incoming sensory information in terms of spatial relationships between entities in real or abstract space. (often called "where" processing)

TAC: analyzing incoming sensory information in relation to past experience, categories, and factual knowledge. (often called "what" processing)



Finally, there is an asymmetry in the function of the two hemispheres. The left hemisphere is more focused and literal while the right hemisphere more gestalt and broad. If you are shown a picture of a cow the left hemisphere would generate associations closed centered on the cow itself while the right hemisphere would generate associations of a more broad character, like drinking milk this morning, memories of growing up on a farm, etc. This suggests a dichotomy of F and N on the right and T and S on the left.



Thus:

Ti = Left Dorsal-Lateral PFC

Fi = Right Dorsal-Lateral PFC

Te = Left Orbital-Frontal PFC

Fe = Right Orbital-Frontal PFC

Si = Left TAC

Ni = Right TAC

Se = Left PAC

Ne = Right PAC
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I typically test as a rather left-brained person. Do you think that perhaps I'm not really an NF, then? I do admit, the thing I find most confusing about people is when they process things in a diffuse, general way... especially if they hold me to a standard based on such a perception.

Is there more information about these areas of the brain available anywhere, out of curiosity?
 

zarc

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
2,629
MBTI Type
Zzzz
I don't have time to read through and recall my understandings on both just yet (well, to better recall the brain, ah!).

*subscribes so as not to Sigh while trying to find this Thread*
 

Splittet

Wannabe genius
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
632
MBTI Type
INTJ
That's a very interesting perspective. It's great it is scientific and testable, and also it makes MBTI a lot easier to understand. I mean, there are so many definitions of certain functions that they are very hard to understand. In this perspective they are fairly easy to define, and there is less of that Jungian mysticism, that makes types feel more like horoscopes than science.
 

mippus

you are right
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
906
MBTI Type
Intp
Enneagram
5w6
Very interesting.
Is this your own interpretation/theory?
 

tovlo

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
248
MBTI Type
INFJ
Thus:

Ti = Left Dorsal-Lateral PFC

Fi = Right Dorsal-Lateral PFC

Te = Left Orbital-Frontal PFC

Fe = Right Orbital-Frontal PFC

Si = Left TAC

Ni = Right TAC

Se = Left PAC

Ne = Right PAC

Lenore Thomson also associates the functions with certain regions of the brain, but it differs from this breakdown. I recall she places the INFJ dom/aux pair of Ni & Fe as left-brain functions.

I will try to find her breakdown and sources to post here later.
 

Mort Belfry

Rats off to ya!
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Messages
1,238
MBTI Type
INTP
I think Lenore put all XXXJ functions as left brain and all XXXP functions as right brain, or the other way around.

But it's nice to actually hear about neuroscience and its relation.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
This is interesting! It's more detailed than the Hermann Brain Dominance Indicator model, and your results about the main functions (S,N,T,F) are the same as suggested by the HBDI.

HBDI associates N- and S- like functions with limbic system, tho, but I guess that's just a matter of style. We could categorize someone being more or less influenced by the limbic system as opposed to the cortex, but the limbic system - as I've understood it - doesn't directly facilitate "thinking" in the traditional sense.
 

6sticks

New member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
424
MBTI Type
istp
It would be interesting if neuroscientists found an actual correlation between areas of brain activity and MBTI type. I doubt that would happen though.
 

Eileen

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
2,179
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6?
It would be interesting if neuroscientists found an actual correlation between areas of brain activity and MBTI type. I doubt that would happen though.


Yeah, I doubt it too.

I like the idea of the eight cognitive processes, but I doubt that they are going to neatly section off as described in the OP... and I'm not sure how testable this theory is because I am not sure there are truly specific behaviors that we can say are associated strongly with each process.
 

tovlo

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
248
MBTI Type
INFJ
Lenore Thompson breaks down brain area and functions this way:

Front of left brain: Te/Fe

Front of right brain: Ne/Se

Back of left brain: Si/Ni

Back of right brain: Fi/Ti

Her source was brain diagrams contained in How to Choose Your Best Sport and Play It. (I personally would rather have seen a meatier source listed.)

According to Lenore, current type research indicates that introverted and extraverted versions of the same function activate opposite sides of the brain. (It is not documented what research this conclusion is sourced from, however.) Te and Fe activate more areas in the left brain, while Ti and Fi activate more areas in the right brain. Se and Ne activate more areas in the right brain, but Si and Ni activate more areas in the left brain.

Assuming her assertions regarding function activation in the brain are accurate, then her function breakdown classifying XXXJ's as predominately left-brained and XXXP's as predominately right-brained seems to have some validity.

Not having a clear understanding of brain physiology, I'm uncertain what brain areas are being classified as front vs. back, so it's hard to compare your breakdown vs. hers, but you seem to be breaking down judging functions into the front area of the brain and perceiving functions into the back area, while Lenore is breaking down extraverted functions into the front area of the brain and introverted functions into the back area. I did not find any justification in her writing for that breakdown.

I do wish I could look more closely at the research she refers to in order to understand specifically what parts of the brain are being activated and by what activities.

I wonder what you make of her breakdown and what can be discerned about the logic for that breakdown compared to yours?
 

tovlo

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
248
MBTI Type
INFJ
I did find a little information online attempting to justify assigning extraverted functions to the front of the brain and introverted functions to the back of the brain.

At least there is research cited, but still mostly supposition, it seems.

BrainTypes.com - Brain Types & The Brain

Extraversion (E): activated principally in front of forebrain -- anterior to central sulcus

--personality—the prefrontal cortex is the most significant area for creating one’s outward “personality”.

--Expressing language through conversation/speech (activated by Brocas [left anterior forebrain]). In general, Extraverts speak more and louder than Introverts. (Nurturing, environment, and genetic variances also affect speech patterns; thus explaining most speech differences among Extraverts [and Introverts].)

A University of California medical school used PET scans to examine brain regions of people while speaking. They looked at the brain while they (1) made nonsense syllables, (2) recited the months of the year, and (3) recited a briefly memorized prose passage. While both the "mindless" recitation of the months and the prose passage used Wernicke's area (the top back part of the temporal lobe), ONLY the prose showed activity in Broca's area. The conclusion: rote memorized verbal tasks require little thought or sophisticated cortical activity. Bookheimer, S., et al. 2000. Neurology, Vol 55(8), 1151-1157.

--voluntary motor movements (activated by primary motor cortex—anterior to central sulcus). Moving the body is an Extraverted (energy-expending) function, activated by the motor cortex.

--high degree of “attention” to outside world (principally a function of the anterior forebrain—especially right superior frontal gyrus)

--expressing emotion (left anterior forebrain)

--dopamine (a neurotransmitter that says “do it” is primarily in anterior forebrain.

--cingulate gyrus—regarded as the volition and will center (located in anterior forebrain); it causes humans to act. In addition, Extraverts are innately designed to expend energy whereas Introverts conserve it.

--planning—an integral part of taking action and expending energy.

Planning involves maintaining one main goal while working on sub-goals for that main goal. This is apparently one of the unique human brain functions. The National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland has published findings that show that that particular task is performed in the most anterior part of the frontal lobes called the fronto- polar prefrontal cortex. Koechlin et. al, Nature 1999, vol 399(6732) 148-151.

Introversion (I): activated principally in back of brain—posterior to central sulcus

--understanding and comprehension of language (processed in left temporal lobe—Wernickes)

--5 senses (taking in world around self)

--touch and pressure (parietal lobe—which controls the primary sensory cortex.

Behind the primary sensory cortex is a large association area that controls fine sensation—weight, size, shape, etc.)

--smell and sound (temporal lobe)

--sight (occipital lobe)

--long-term memory—stored primarily posterior to central sulcus

--neuroscientists now suspect there are 4 separate memory systems in the brain (rather than one as long believed). Conscious memory of facts and events—hippocampus; associative learning (like Pavlovian conditioning)—cerebellum; emotional memories—amygdala; memories of learned skills—basal ganglia. These are posterior brain regions.

--In Alzheimer’s disease, long-term memory fades as the posterior brain cells die

--self awareness (parietal lobe)

--Introverts conserve energy whereas Extraverts expend it.

--reading (posterior region)

Dr. Kenneth Pugh, Psychiatrist and Medical Researcher at Yale, has been studying the neural pathways which are generated in good readers. When the brain is asked to go from the listening and speaking modes to the visual spatial, yet abstract production of reading, new relationships between regions in the cortex are formed. This is true for all written languages. Skilled readers have engineered neural networks, which take the visual sensory input from "eye to meaning" in about 150 milliseconds. This is done through the dominant path of the eye to three posterior gyrus (areas in the back half of the cortex). The lingual, fusiform and angular gyrus collaborate to convert letters into meaning.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
Call me bias if you so wish... but no, the brain is a lot more complex than that. It is my believe that yes probably personality (and if type truly exists) will be defined by patterns of brain activation. But those patterns will not be discrete areas of increase activity from large regions of the brain. It'll more resemble patch work activation of many different areas that can be variable across individuals. The division of these regions (I'm refering to something like subdomains of a magnet) varies from person. To get the average regions of people in general will likely give you a smear that will be completely meaningless as function regions overlaps so much.

Brain function is due to the integration of input from multiple regions of the brain. To separate parts of the brain as being responsible for this and that is like saying a person's voice is just making noises. That's not true at all. It neglects all the fine details. A person can sing, speak in different languages, imitate sounds, whistle etc. It is true that certain regions of the brain seems to be mostly involved for a particular task. But function overlaps along with other regions. Some of them nowhere near that first location. Going back to the magnet analogy... say the brain is divided into these subdomains of irregular shape and sizes. A particular "type" will have increase activation of some random pattern of subdomains... a little bit here and a little bit there that lights up on during an fMRI scan.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the individual regions that actually lights up in fMRI is a lot smaller than the variability that exists between individuals. Such that the summed average response in a population of even the same type gives you a nondescriptive blob.

In response to "Brain Types" I've posted this in INTPc a while back... enough said about my disagreement with the interpretation of scientific knowledge.
INTP Central - View Single Post - BrainTypes - Neidnagel

I tried staying out of this thread... know very well opinions like mine is not conducive to discovery of new ideas... but I can't help myself.
 

nemo

Active member
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
445
Enneagram
<3

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
Fuck! No this is the first time I've heard of him and his model... but it looks interesting. There are times when I wish my knowledge on mathematics is better. Fourier transform and waves... DAMN IT!

About his paper "Consciousness Reassessed", what he stated certainly can fit into my limited understanding on brain and cognition. I wish those diagrams would display though. Those broken image boxes makes me sad... My comprehension through pictures is so much better. :sad: Perhaps I can find some of his work from a library or something... More stuff on the to-do interest list. :doh: Thanks Nemo... (That was a sincere thank you with a sarcastic overtone just for teasing. :smooch: I seriously like this stuff... if only the process doesn't hurt my brain. Ah well, no pain no gain.)

Anyways, I haven't finished reading... but here's my incomplete personal model on how cognition works.

You start off with a simple circuit with an on-off switch. Input enters from one end and if a threshold is reached, it outputs a signal. A small network of these switches linked together forms a parallel circuit. This is the center responsible for say monitoring different wavelengths of light that hits one part of the retina of an eye. The frequency of the summed output signal indicates the intensity of light, while the spatial pattern of the signals indicates location of input. This signal is sent to another parallel circuit. For another round of processing. Note that every single circuit has its own on-off monitor switch. Nothing fancy, just like a fuse that turns itself off when it's not running on optimal conditions. So the whole system is a mixture of parallel circuits hooked up in a series with each other... for god knows how many layers.

Consciousness would be signals that continuously loops around this circuit. As long as impulses are being conducted we have memory. Both the spatial and temporal aspects of the impulses are necessary to encode for thoughts. I suppose you can convert that over to wave patterns... as Fourier transform states any shaped line can be represented by the summation of sine waves... I've never relate the on-off system of switches to waveforms until now though. :mellow:

Anyways, so the mind is like a weird computer with only RAM. No, that's not correct... consciousness is pattern of neural impulses within the brain. The physical and chemical structure of the neural network is the basis of personality/type... for it's that structure that gives you the probability of signal transduction that produce consciousness.

Oh, can you please explain to me how holography relates with wave patterns? In uhhhh analogies or at least simple mathematics that does not require number sets and calculus if possible.

Edit: I do agree with his belief that the study of cognition cannot be reduced to the bottom up approach of everything being nicely layered from simple to complex nor the top down approach (far too vague in my mind). Consciousness to me is relational. A pattern of brain activation, both temporal and spatial, that encodes thoughts rather than "x system on means one thing and y system on means another". There's simply not enough neurons in our brains to do that. Not even if each yes or no is represented by signal from a single synapse... (That idea, of individual thoughts being represented by a synapse, is in itself absurd.)
 

tovlo

New member
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
248
MBTI Type
INFJ
nightning,

I'm reading at the moment The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.

It was suggested in another book I was reading as one of the better explanations of Holographic theory. I don't know if that's just so for those of us lacking a scientific background, but I have found it thus far a very readable exploration of this idea. Reviews seem to indicate the first portion of the book where he embarks on explanation of Pribram's and Bohm's ideas very solid. Any criticism seems to be centered on where he travels beyond that in the remainder of the book.

Thought I'd offer this to you or others in case there was interest.
 

nemo

Active member
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
445
Enneagram
<3
Oh, can you please explain to me how holography relates with wave patterns? In uhhhh analogies or at least simple mathematics that does not require number sets and calculus if possible.

Sure! :)

Images in holography are encoded as interference patterns.

To get an idea of how it works...

Image you're a little mouse in the corner of a swimming pool. You're sensitive enough that you can feel and measure the waves in the water, but you're totally blind and deaf.

Then several people jump into the pool at various locations. Using only the wave interference patterns you measure bobbing up and down in your little corner, you're able to completely reconstruct who jumped in the pool, where they did it, how much they weigh, and even the shape of their body, etc -- even though you can't see them or hear them.

That's basically how the wave patterns in Pribram's theory work. The information is encoded in the brain's wave interference patterns, not in any local unit of memory, although they may be locally reconstructed into intelligible information, like our mouse in the swimming pool.

His theory explains, among other things, how someone can lose an entire lobe of their brain but later regain the lost functionality in other parts of the remaining brain -- because the information is stored non-locally. If you break a holograph in two, the same thing happens: instead of the hologram not working, you get two whole (albeit a little fuzzier) holograms. The information is stored in the whole, not in any part.

Also, yes: I've read Talbot's book -- the first half is pretty good, but he does go off his rocker in the second half.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
nightning,

I'm reading at the moment The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.

It was suggested in another book I was reading as one of the better explanations of Holographic theory. I don't know if that's just so for those of us lacking a scientific background, but I have found it thus far a very readable exploration of this idea. Reviews seem to indicate the first portion of the book where he embarks on explanation of Pribram's and Bohm's ideas very solid. Any criticism seems to be centered on where he travels beyond that in the remainder of the book.

Thought I'd offer this to you or others in case there was interest.
Thank you Tovlo! I'll have to hunt that one out. :D

Sure! :)

Images in holography are encoded as interference patterns.

To get an idea of how it works...

Image you're a little mouse in the corner of a swimming pool. You're sensitive enough that you can feel and measure the waves in the water, but you're totally blind and deaf.

Then several people jump into the pool at various locations. Using only the wave interference patterns you measure bobbing up and down in your little corner, you're able to completely reconstruct who jumped in the pool, where they did it, how much they weigh, and even the shape of their body, etc -- even though you can't see them or hear them.

That's basically how the wave patterns in Pribram's theory work. The information is encoded in the brain's wave interference patterns, not in any local unit of memory, although they may be locally reconstructed into intelligible information, like our mouse in the swimming pool.

His theory explains, among other things, how someone can lose an entire lobe of their brain but later regain the lost functionality in other parts of the remaining brain -- because the information is stored non-locally. If you break a holograph in two, the same thing happens: instead of the hologram not working, you get two whole (albeit a little fuzzier) holograms. The information is stored in the whole, not in any part.

Also, yes: I've read Talbot's book -- the first half is pretty good, but he does go off his rocker in the second half.
Ah! Like x-ray crystallography. I can just imagine myself bobbing in the pool. :headphne:

Hmmmm so if you're going by that... then all signal input must occur over a broad distribution of receptors. Wait... or does it? No it does not! I guess the main problem with this model lies in how memory is encoded into waves and decoded back into information. The encoding part seems to be readily comprehended, a bunch of receptors at a baseline level of activation and input either elevates or suppresses the baseline. The problem is in how you decode interference patterns to get back information. I don't know enough mathematics nor computer programming to think. :sad:
 
Top