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  1. #1
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Apr 2007

    Default Extroverted Judgment and Conventions/Traditions

    This is kind of inspired by FineLine's post, but it's been running through my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    ... Fe = tradition and conventions, while Ne is that quality or mindset which attempts to defy traditions and conventions. Again, that dichotomy is over-simple and people will probably object. But allow me the liberty for illustration purposes.

    Thus, Fe = the traditional process of engaging in small talk at first, taking time to get to know one another, and opening up to each other in an even, balanced process for purposes of creating an atmosphere of warmth, harmony, safety, reassurance, security, etc...

    The downside of Fe is that always following conventions can become stultifying and insincere through too much practice and too much reliance on what's familiar and what works...
    I see a lot of conflating Fe and Te with descriptors that more accurately describe Si. I wonder if people know how to differentiate the functions as they stand alone or if they're using a combination of Fe/Te and Si to describe pure Fe and Te or mixing Fe and Te when describing Si.

    There is more variation within type than between type. Since ETJs and EFJs (or ITPs and IFPs) share the same dominant function, I think the differences are more apparent than between ENPs and ESPs (or ISJs and INJs).

    I may be making a distinction that doesn't exist, but it seems to me that Fe and Te are conventional and Si is traditional.

    Te and Fe use commonly agreed upon standards to make decisions and deduce logic. Si uses accumulated wisdom and experience to sift through information. Te/Fe look very different depending on what introverted perceiving function is fueling it. There is overlap in what is conventional and what is traditional. But convention is much more flexible and less ingrained than tradition. And when we speak of the traditional nature of Si, are we talking about culturally shared Si or are we talking about individually experienced Si? Any introverted function is highly subjective so how is Si any different?

    It seems to me that ESJs get double damnation because they're supposedly so rigid because they have an extroverted judging function as their dominant and then get hit again because of tradition laced Si. When I see this played out IRL it just doesn't add up. Nor are ESJs given credit for any adept usage of tertiary Ne which also lends to more flexibility.

    So I wonder if it's possible for extroverted judging functions to ever be completely separate from what typically is in the domain of Si. Can anyone give pure examples of Fe and Te without tinges of Si? Can they be completely separated?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  2. #2
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Apr 2007
    594 sx/sp
    LII Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I may be making a distinction that doesn't exist, but it seems to me that Fe and Te are conventional and Si is traditional.
    I need to think through much more of this, to build on what you said... but I really do like the way you said this.

    The words "conventional" vs. "traditional" really seem to sum up the difference, to me. (And as an aside, what would Se be? "Experiential"? That's not quite right, but Se is something that is new in the moment, currently experienced, rather than "traditional.")
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #3
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Dec 2007
    8w7 sp/sx
    SLE Ti


    My guess is that people confuse the tradition element with one's being an Extraverted Judging type, instead of attributing it solely to Si. The key is to show them that all SJs (all with either dominant or auxiliary Si) like convention and tradition, and they actively follow it, whereas (in Keirsey's view) the ENTJ doesn't care about tradition. Nor does the ENFJ. They have ulterior motives (the ENTJ would 'go along with' a given traditional element to achieve their goal; the ENFJ would go along with one so as to cooperate with others effectively; perhaps they want to please others). Both the ESTJ and the ESFJ certainly have concern for conventions and traditions. They're there to be observed; no question. So, naturally, tradition and convention is Si-related.

    As a side point, I also find interesting that in socionics, the idea of admiration for and being bound by tradition isn't related to Si. In fact, I don't even think it's functionally-related; it isn't such a big deal in socionics. It's certainly not a combination of two strong functions. However, in MBTT, it seems to be a really prominent part of Si.

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