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Why do INTJ/ENTJ's get such a bad rap?

Litvyak

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Oct 5, 2008
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I also have an INTJ brother -- again, I concur with you: they are terribly caring.

A pity that I don't know them. I've never. ever. seen a "terribly caring" INTJ. INTJ's struggling with their feelings? Yeah, sure. INTJ's "decent and caring"? Very, very rare.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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6,387
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ENTP
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7w8
Immature NTJs have issues with running roughshod over other people's feelings and using amoral "ends justify the means" thinking. There also seems to be a stereotype of INTJs as tending to be heartless Ayn Rand fanatic Libertarians that think poor people are all lazy and make fun of us "Bleeding Heart" NF Liberals (with much abuse being tossed at the Archetypal "Bleeding Heart" INFJ Jimmy Carter)

I don't even see the point of this rather ignorant comment. Not all NTJs are Libertarians. Ayn Rand was not a Libertarian, and nowhere close to one. Libertarians think lazy people are lazy. Libertarians are not heartless. Not all NFs are Liberals or bleeding hearts, and yes, Jimmy Carter should be abused.

A pity that I don't know them. I've never. ever. seen a "terribly caring" INTJ. INTJ's struggling with their feelings? Yeah, sure. INTJ's "decent and caring"? Very, very rare.

Yes, there are many caring INTJs. Don't know why they haven't expressed it to you. Maybe they just express it differently than you are used to.
 

juggernaut

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"disrespectful" isn't a word that most ENTJs would use to describe their own contradictory behavior, because arguments and bluntness are the ways we get to know people. it's more respectful to take the time to have a discussion with someone than it is to be politely silent-- it means she's taking you more seriously.

in addition, ENTJs reserve their affection for a group of close friends and relatives, who they are extremely loyal to. with what they believe is assured mutual support, there is no need to waste time building more. we use aquaintances as a change of pace, who may then develop into true friends if they prove themselves worthy and patient.

+1

I don't have much trouble in social situations IRL, but I also don't talk to too many people (if I can avoid it). I care for the people close to me. Everyone else I'm pretty much neutral on. I don't want to hurt other people's feelings, mostly because it creates unnecessary chaos for me, but it doesn't hurt me to do so. I also feel very meh on the whole notion of social interaction so if I "run off" someone who I find annoying I'm okay with it. Kind of a good riddance to bad rubbish position I guess. By the same token, I'm perfectly fine with others deciding I'm not their cup of tea. I absolutely do not care what the world at large thinks of me or my personality type. The only people that matter are the people that matter to me. :)

It's my sense that most of the people that have a bone to pick with the NTJs have been wounded by one at some point. If one NTJ sucked, they all must, right? (admittedly, I do suck, but I've had the pleasure of knowing some less sucky NTJs)
 

Saslou

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I love your humour .. I hope you trying to be funny there and not all serious ;)
 

norepinephrine

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It's because Te is obnoxious. I don't mind it though.

Te can be annoying, but I've become quite skilled in various ways of saying STFU. OTOH, you always know exactly what they think . And they can be just as amusingly random as ENTPs/INTPs when you're just shooting the breeze.

I had a conversation with the ENTJ neighbor this morning where he stated that he trusts me and that I've never lied to him. It's true - I have never lied to him. Not that I haven't considered it from time to time - but I'm not a good liar and I think it would be a tremendous mistake. He would see through me in a minute.

Of course, he also said that I tend to be somewhat blunt. I'm blunt? Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle... this is Pot.

In the end, he's a sounding board who would not hesitate to tell me when I'm screwing up.
 

professor goodstain

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i'm only speaking of this place due to not knowing any NTJs irl. Wait, i suppose they are the ones that weren't the 14 other types. Never mind.

i've experienced what could be felt as (catching hell) to some on here, but it was never taken personal to me. I think they articulate a few (very few) things with some hypothetical truth. This truth is said, as well as structured to say, things that could come off as insensative. The rest is the truth that is expressed through a filter of sorts.

i honestly think that an NTJ will write something they think could be insensative, yet has to be writen for truths sake and hypothetical truths sake. imo-if they think the reader will be knee jerked at first sight of their writing, they will still let it be posted because they know that once the reader comes down from knee jerk land, then the reader will absorb the facts out of it to seek consensus in order to move on.

We're looking at this like dominos or something. Someone will see (knee jerkable posts) time after time and relate that with NTJ. Eventually, if one doesn't followup with the NTJ lingo, that person will keep jerking the knee until they finally absorb it thoroghly. i think the NTJ knows this and they will keep pressing on until a person figures NTJs real higher motive out. At the very least, maybe the NTJ figures the reader of their writing could use some schooling in nonknee jerking etiquette. Assuming that reader knee jerks first. Then, with practice of reading NTJs writing, the reader shouldn't fall in the domino trap of thinking the nature of NTJs writing is insensitive because they took it from the wrong angle time after time.
 

Saslou

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i honestly think that an NTJ will write something they think could be insensative, yet has to be writen for truths sake and hypothetical truths sake. imo-if they think the reader will be knee jerked at first sight of their writing, they will still let it be posted because they know that once the reader comes down from knee jerk land, then the reader will absorb the facts out of it to seek consensus in order to move on.

This is the point i was just making in another thread. I understand where you are coming from so don't get me wrong. If an NTJ writes something they know to be insensitive but still posts it, why is their opinion gospel? They are waiting for people to come out of knee jerk land. No, i see this as you are deliberately provoking me. I find NTJ's have to or are always right and again that is just your view/interpretation. Your point may be valid, but my point is also just as valid.

Make sense????
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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ENFJ
This is the point i was just making in another thread. I understand where you are coming from so don't get me wrong. If an NTJ writes something they know to be insensitive but still posts it, why is their opinion gospel? They are waiting for people to come out of knee jerk land. No, i see this as you are deliberately provoking me. I find NTJ's have to or are always right and again that is just your view/interpretation. Your point may be valid, but my point is also just as valid.

Make sense????

NTJs kind of expect people to think before they say something. If you wait out your knee-jerk reaction and are still offended, say something. You know. Count to ten if you're angry, if you're really angry, count to a hundred. Like your first grade teacher said. Or was it Ben Franklin?

There is a difference between deliberate provocation and playing devil's advocate. But yes. This is why people hate NTJs.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Dec 3, 2008
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4,310
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INTJ
Wait... people don't like NTJs? So what?

Actually I don't know how to respond appropriately to this thread.

Like, don't like, it's up to you. I don't have the Fe to engineer a relationship, but I've got plans and ideas for stuff in the world, and if you want to join in, that'd be great. That's about how it works out for me. Really.


Just sharin'.
 

Saslou

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Wait... people don't like NTJs? So what?

Actually I don't know how to respond appropriately to this thread.

Like, don't like, it's up to you. I don't have the Fe to engineer a relationship, but I've got plans and ideas for stuff in the world, and if you want to join in, that'd be great. That's about how it works out for me. Really.


Just sharin'.

Fair does .. I am not saying i hate NTJ's i have learnt maybe one thing from them .. hehe .. But its like with anybody, you find qualities you like and qualities you don't. Get over it or get out. Simple. ;)
 

sculpting

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Wait... people don't like NTJs? So what?

Actually I don't know how to respond appropriately to this thread.

Like, don't like, it's up to you. I don't have the Fe to engineer a relationship, but I've got plans and ideas for stuff in the world, and if you want to join in, that'd be great. That's about how it works out for me. Really.
Just sharin'.

Perhaps in this thread we are seeing dominant Fe and secondary Te not quite talking so clearly? I know my biggest battles with entps are when I pull out a tertiary Te and they pull out a tertiary Fe. So I can only imagine that if those functions are more mature and defined/delineated they would conflict at the core even more.

A pity that I don't know them. I've never. ever. seen a "terribly caring" INTJ. INTJ's struggling with their feelings? Yeah, sure. INTJ's "decent and caring"? Very, very rare.

Most INTJs I have met care very deeply but in a really odd, quiet way. They all have profound integrity, deep moral values, but they share this with very, very few. They also physically express the emotions on a very limited basis. Most are not Ann Rynd like-misunderstood yes-but they do care about others, in thier own way.

Once they care for you, it is like you have a strong loving advocate who will always be dependable and there for you. Maybe us enfps are kinda flaky and fickle, but having that solidity, stability always present makes me like them more.

"disrespectful" isn't a word that most ENTJs would use to describe their own contradictory behavior, because arguments and bluntness are the ways we get to know people. it's more respectful to take the time to have a discussion with someone than it is to be politely silent-- it means she's taking you more seriously.
.

I have seen this IRL, and I really prefer it. I love going head to head with en ENTJ-when I know I am right-as honest frank, blunt ass discussion gets things moving. I worship/adore/endlessly desire ENTJs as leaders in the workplace. They give me organizational orgasms. :devil:

Because they are clearly evil and you have all fallen for their plan to seduce you into thinking they are actually decent people.

Hahahaha! monsters one and all! :hug:
 

Saslou

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OK .. I can so see that i am trying to resolve this conflict now ...

There must be one thing an INTJ/ENTJ is good at?????









Something, anything? :sleeping: .. Me neither ... Never mind, lets dance :party2:
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
Messages
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Once one INFP on INTJf was asking how to become more orgenized, calculated and succesful. So I gave her my opinion.

But in the end she concluded that I am a "bad person"
However I admit that I have the tendency to be the most calculated bastard around.
What can be seen as bad.


So here is my reply to her which is not written to be a joke.



I think that something must be said before I get to my point.
People with P usually say that they must be flexible and that everything would be lost without that. And they see people with high J as short sided idiots. That can be true in case when you have high S and you are very J. But if you have strong N and strong T strong J can be controlled by those two and become very useful.
In case that this is not true ENTJ and INTJ would never be what they are.


Here is how NTJ is thinking.

Instead to prepare for bad scenarios and living in fear they create plans to get an advantage in their life. After that when they get to place where they want to be they use their good position to get even better position.
While P just waits his big problem and hopes that he/she will be ready.
But he will probably lose because he/she stayed at first level where you are most vulnerable which is because you have small amount of options and there is no place to flee.
Once you get to higher position and have 10 000$ per month many basic problems will not even be coming your way.



What this means in real life?

It means that if you stash too many things which could help you in some situations the only thing that is likely is that you will not be able to find them among all those things, at least not in advised time period and you will lose large amount of time on cleaning and repairing those things.


How to organize?
Put things that you need in places where you can easily grab them.
Things which you need less put somewhere where they will be out of the way for everyday operations.
Things you probably will not need soon can be thrown in garbage because if you are going to need them one day they will be broken or obsolete.
Make sure that all things have their own place and that you put them in that place after use.


On the big picture you must determine what you want from life. After you do that try to find best way to get there. Also having a master plan for your life is really not that bad because if you have it you will have standard by which you can judge things. (science and philosophy are exceptions)
For example you must see what jobs you can do whit your education which leads to question "Is this level of education enough for me".
But I don’t have any data here so I can’t help you much in this part.


I see you are strong in verbal intelligence my advice is to use it whenever you can get something from it.
For example I am so J that I plan my conversations. When I know that I will have to argue I scan my database about any information about my “enemy” and what things he/she will likely to support and what are the flaws of that thing or process.
Also you could create list of 15-20 simple jokes and learn them for cases when you feel stuck in social situation.
I also make list of things/facts I want to say to other person and then try to mention them in conversation (this can help you a lot in life).


Don’t hesitate to write facts and information if they are complex.
Try to be aware of others peoples goals, hopes and fears.
If you work in the place where you can be easily accused for something try to see it coming and prepare your defense. By this I mean write it on the paper and try to learn as much facts from it as you can. But try to be short because your point must be represented in small amount of time. And if you know topic well you can turn accusation against the accuser who could be caught by surprise with your actions.
Don’t be too nice because people will start to use you in many ways. And there is good chance that INFP can be too friendly in working environment.
Don’t be too defensive when you know that you are wrong.
Try to be right hand of your boss. By doing this you will probably be first candidate for the promotion and that is what you want.

Also when you start to think this way any job will be much more interesting. Because tensions will be higher what means more excitement.

I know that this advices from INFP perspective can be summarized as “become an Antichrist” but this is exactly what you want.



Strong intrapersonal intelligence can help you a lot to realize what you can and what you can’t do. This is possibly your greatest strength.



What many people don’t realize is that there is entire spectrum of small things that can make a HUGE difference.

Having proper body mass is just one of the factors but it is very important in business environment because it dictates how others see you.
But even more important is that you can’t have a good sleep if you are above 20% of your ideal body mass. When you sleep make sure that bed is not too soft.
If it is too soft your back will hurt and you will not be fresh in the morning what can be fatal in many ways.

Don’t be an addict of any legal things that stimulate your senses.
For example I don’t drink coffee at all and I don’t use any pills unless I am sick.
Human body has chemical composition and every time you add something like this you are destroying the balance in your body.
And that can reduce many things (like mental ability) through the rest of the day/life.
I don’t use any of those things but I have more energy and stronger mental abilities then people around me and I think it is just because I avoid those things.
Plus it will save you much time, much money, time you need to buy them and prepare them and time to wash the dishes after coffee.
All of this can take about 1h per day for an average person.
But if you multiply that by 365 you will get 2 weeks of totally free time!!!!
Congratulations, you have just bought yourself time to rest for real during the day and to make your future plans. Same works for smoking, alcohol, drugs/pills.
Try to use same way of thinking about many small things in your life and suddenly you will have a lot of free time.


It is very important to have 3 major meals and 2 minor meals during the day. This will cover your hunger over the day.
Ideal is about 5% sweets , 25% proteins , 30% fruit and vegetables , 40% bread , pasta …
What people don’t get is that their body is chemical factory which can’t work properly if “raw materials” that come in, suck.
This sounds funny but stuff like this could be just what you need to get advantage over others (read: be more productive).
In case you know that ahead of you is situation that needs quick thinking like
exam or meeting try to eat some small amount of meat or cheese before it because that will wake you up.

And don’t think like this “you can do it, you can do it “.
What you need is “Just do it and continue to next task”.

I would advise you to find someone for playing games like chess, risk and monopoly because that will boost your thinking and ability to make plans. Plus you will get used to offense as a way of thinking.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
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I'm gonna be honest Antisocial One, I really don't see why someone would take offense to that post. That didn't seem like an attack or anything, that just seemed like legit advice coming from you. In no way would that make you a "bad person". If that's honestly how you think then good for you, if that person took offense to that then they need to realize that a lot of people's thinking tends to not be like theirs as they'd would like it to be.

There must be one thing an INTJ/ENTJ is good at?????

I'd say it would be hard to say what someone is "good" at based entirely on type to be honest with you... NTJs are good people though. :yes:
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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I'm gonna be honest Antisocial One, I really don't see why someone would take offense to that post. That didn't seem like an attack or anything, that just seemed like legit advice coming from you. In no way would that make you a "bad person". If that's honestly how you think then good for you, if that person took offense to that then they need to realize that a lot of people's thinking tends to not be like theirs as they'd would like it to be.

I'd say it would be hard to say what someone is "good" at based entirely on type to be honest with you... NTJs are good people though. :yes:


Well she wasn't actually offened it is just that she had a problem with idea that someone can be so ruthless/deliberate. So this insight gave her a cold shower. This is why bad person part is in quotation marks.


But in the end she said she will think about it.
 

juggernaut

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OK .. I can so see that i am trying to resolve this conflict now ...

There must be one thing an INTJ/ENTJ is good at?????









Something, anything? :sleeping: .. Me neither ... Never mind, lets dance :party2:

Just about anything we decide is worth our time. :smile:
 
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