• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Fe vs. Fi, Disloyalty, Allegiance, Or the Lack Thereof…

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
1,579
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
@bold 1: Sorry this isn't clear to me; Fi sees what as "selling out"?

I suspect Fidelia is saying that Fe works towards the best socially workable/practical solution... and is more tolerant of compromise to get there. Fi tends to be more absolute, and less tolerant of the social structures that get in the way of implementation of principles. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Fidelia!)

@bold 2: This sounds a little presumptive that the Fe outcome is the best possible outcome. That's a pretty subjective viewpoint.

I suspect she just meant the best of outcomes given the social systems. Fe leans towards seeing those systems as tools and means of expression, rather than merely impediments.

Maybe the friction point is not so much Fe vs Fi but Fe vs Te here. Te will strive for what it can realistically make happen as well ..... perhaps it's the manner of working toward the goal that's more the rub. Fe will work the people, not question the ideas so much; Fi will not question the people as much as they will seek the most practical idea.

I think both Fe and Te are practical, but just in different areas. Fe wields "soft power"—social structures and relationships—to convince and motivate. Te focuses more on explicit authority and the real world mechanics to get things done. Both Te and Fe tend to form networks of like-minded folks who reinforce the system (in their respective realms). So, it makes sense to me that Te-users are not going to directly challenge the explicit authority structures (but, with balance, see it as a tool for implementing Fi values) and Fe-users are not going to directly rip apart the social structure (but, with balance, instead see it as a way of implementing Ti-based improvements).

So, when an Fi-user speaks up something he or she sees as wrong with the group, it can feel like an attack on what is making change possible (from an Fe perspective). That may come across as disloyalty, when the Fi-user sees it more as being true to the values the group claims to represent.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
Thanks cascadeco for your thoughts. Not trying to speak in absolutes with my post above, just throwing it out there for feedback and more development.

I think PB must mean Fe doms, not INFJs.

Yes, I was thinking more Fe / Te dom.

I was thinking of a few of the powerful Fe people I know. They are very smart in the working world, and generally surround themselves with people who will essentially function as their "yes-people" in order to get stuff done. For example, years ago I had a tech contract at a post-secondary institution, and in my role attended the "big-wig" meetings ... The ENFJ president (so charismatic, he presented so well) - he would make suggestions at these meetings, then his first-level managers would all agree he had these great ideas, nod their heads that this is how they would proceed, then would go off after the meetings and do 1 of 2 things: implement what the boss wanted, or try to undermine the plans from behind the scenes. No one would challenge him in a meeting, ever. (It could be career-suicide of course ... anybody would know that! And these folks had sweet public-servant jobs ... why risk that?)

Maybe what I mean trying more to say is that if a person in power has an idea, public scrutiny of it is off-limits to a greater degree? Me, I would see it as more open to public debate, which is what a Te dom would expect, but with an Fe dom the same discussion could get me into serious Fe trouble.

But ... ughh, the games make me shudder.

Anyhoo, does that help at all? That ideas are MOL off-limits depending on who they originate from?
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Thanks cascadeco for your thoughts. Not trying to speak in absolutes with my post above, just throwing it out there for feedback and more development.



Yes, I was thinking more Fe / Te dom.

I was thinking of a few of the powerful Fe people I know. They are very smart in the working world, and generally surround themselves with people who will essentially function as their "yes-people" in order to get stuff done. For example, years ago I had a tech contract at a post-secondary institution, and in my role attended the "big-wig" meetings ... The ENFJ president (so charismatic, he presented so well) - he would make suggestions at these meetings, then his first-level managers would all agree he had these great ideas, nod their heads that this is how they would proceed, then would go off after the meetings and do 1 of 2 things: implement what the boss wanted, or try to undermine the plans from behind the scenes. No one would challenge him in a meeting, ever. (It could be career-suicide of course ... anybody would know that! And these folks had sweet public-servant jobs ... why risk that?)

Maybe what I mean more is that if a person in power has an idea, public scrutiny of it is off-limits more? Me, I would see it as more open to public debate, which is what a Te dom would expect, but with an Fe dom the same discussion could get me into serious Fe trouble.

But ... ughh, the games make me shudder.

Anyhoo, does that help at all? That ideas are MOL off-limits depending on who they originate from?

Sure, thanks for clarifying and adding that anecdote. That helps.

To the bolded - yes, I would agree. However, I need to add that I do not thinkthis is necessarily an Fe/Te thing (or Fe/Fi thing - whatever). I think we're talking power structures here, and specific personalities. So, any number of different personalities in an authoritative role could react quite unfavorably to being called out in a meeting or in a public manner, no matter how the disagreement/questioning is presented. On the other hand, other people in positions of authority - of perhaps the same type - could react quite differently and might be more chill with being put in the spotlight or questioned.

Regardless of whether person-in-authority is Fe or not, it takes good people-reading/ organizational-reading skills I think to be able to navigate whether that's a 'wise' thing to do or whether it'll come back and haunt you or hurt your own prospects to do so. With your example, ENFJ head-guy was apparently someone everyone else didn't want to question at all. I'd put money down though that you could find non-Fe types who would have the exact same dynamic with their subordinates, who follow sheepishly.

It's an interesting scenario, though -- the idea/need of idea-questioning being off-limits with certain people.

I know for myself, in organizations, I've actually garnered a lot more respect (I believe) when being more fearless in questioning ideas in meetings - it's very important to note though that I'm pretty darn careful how I word these things and will word based on who I'm talking to, and will 'read' the room. But, I know when that's a bad method and won't be good, in which case I would go 1:1 instead.
 

JoSunshine

That's my name biotch!
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
659
MBTI Type
eNfj
Enneagram
2
I find the concept of loyalty a curious one. I consider myself to be a very loyal person to those who are near and dear to me. That being said, they are near and dear to me because we view loyalty in a similar fashion. There are a few key points:

I believe in speaking my truth. If I have a friend who I believe behaved badly I will tell them if they ask me and sometimes even if they don't depending on how detrimental I perceive the behavior to be. Also, if a friend of mine looks to me when they are arguing with someone else, and I believe they are wrong I will tell them (although I would wait until we are in private given the option). I want the same from them. I don't want a fan club, I want people who will tell me the truth as they see it even if they know I won't like it. I want to be free to express my opinion and I want people to feel free to express their opinion to me even if it means we ultimately agree to disagree and love each other just the same. In a nutshell, to be able to have honest conversations with a spirit of acceptance for that which is different than ourselves, and a willingness to see ourselves through others eyes. You can't see your face without a mirror. My friends are my mirror.

The first will be first. Those who are the most important to me get the lion's share of my time, effort and affection. I know that some people take the stance of, "You should be here for me no matter what because you are my friend." I don't think that way. I believe that if I want someone to be there for me when I need them, or to treat me with priority, I must do the same. I will skip a party to help a friend move, I will put aside my petty problems to help a friend in crisis, I never blow my close friends off for some sparkly new person because I assume I can see them "whenever". I don't take my friends for granted. I let them know everyday how much they mean to me everyday. For me loyalty is more than a feeling - it is words and most importantly it is actions. My friends know I will be there for them no matter what, and I am lucky to be able to say the same about them.

I had a discussion about loyalty just last night with my ENTJ friend. We discussed two casual friends (one Fe and one Fi) who think of themselves as very loyal because they feel loyalty towards some one and they will indeed be someone's friend forever if the other person will have them. But we don't interpret their actions as loyal, quite the opposite. However we agreed that a person who is like-minded to them would be much more likely to not have an issue with what we perceive as disloyal behavior. I really think the definition of loyalty is subjective based on a individuals value system.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Yep, Seymour said it PB. I don't mean that Fe is the keeper of the BEST solutions. I'm just saying that it tends to look at the given circumstances and cobble up the best result that it can see available to it, using the power structures that are in place. From what I've seen, I think Fi users see this as giving up on THE CAUSE or selling out sometimes. I believe that Te and Ti have a similar kind of relationship. Ti sees certain ways of doing things as being very distinct and that to go for 80% is really not enough, just as Fi makes sharper distinctions and therefore feels that approximating what will do in this situation is not nearly enough.

In both instances I believe it has to do with extroverted functions tolerating compromise as a means of getting closer to the goal and introverted functions feeling that compromise creates a very different product than the ideal that they wish to see.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It's an interesting scenario, though -- the idea/need of idea-questioning being off-limits with certain people.

I know for myself, in organizations, I've actually garnered a lot more respect (I believe) when being more fearless in questioning ideas in meetings - it's very important to note though that I'm pretty darn careful how I word these things and will word based on who I'm talking to, and will 'read' the room. But, I know when that's a bad method and won't be good, in which case I would go 1:1 instead.
You are right. It is advantageous to speak up diplomatically. It is how people get ahead professionally.

This is difficult for me because the scenario is usually complicated from a social and emotional standpoint and is in a state of constant change, so by the time I have analyzed what I "should" say, the moment is gone. I also get overwhelmed in situations where everyone is complimenting the boss with thick praise. I was even less likely to speak up when younger. I remember my Algebra 2 teacher in high school was kinda goofy and made mistakes on the board. It was a small class and the others were assertive senior guys, so I know they would have spoken up if they figured it out. My motivation to remain quiet was based on two things: I didn't want to embarrass the teacher, and I didn't want to draw attention to myself. I figured it would all work out eventually, and it did. The problem is I'm still a bit like that.

Loyalty is important to me. The relationship doesn't have to be perfect for me to feel loyal. Protecting their privacy is one big area of loyalty as is protecting the person from harm. It is also being reliable, available, and consistent. I also see loyalty as a kind of acceptance - of loving the person for who they are and not trying to change them even if they are different in idea or behavior.
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
I find the concept of loyalty a curious one. [...]
I want people who will tell me the truth as they see it even if they know I won't like it. I want to be free to express my opinion and I want people to feel free to express their opinion to me even if it means we ultimately agree to disagree and love each other just the same. In a nutshell, to be able to have honest conversations with a spirit of acceptance for that which is different than ourselves, and a willingness to see ourselves through others eyes. You can't see your face without a mirror.

I agree with this. I want to be loyal to truth and righteousness as much as possible. I am sorry when this led to being incisive. But some have thanked me later on.

I have a question. Will loyalty sometimes be synonymous with exclusion and favoritism?
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yes, won't it? Otherwise, you'd be loyal to everything and everyone, in which case it loses its meaning.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,910
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
i... am not a loyal person by nature. but don't get me wrong - i'm not a disloyal person by nature either. i'm just like... aloyal. to people, at least. the concept didn't really make sense to me for a long time, and it just isn't a frame of mind that i enter often. i have a hard time with conventional loyalty because a lot of it just really seems counterintuitive to me - blindly trusting someone, not speaking up when you feel like something is wrong, trusting a fallible human, etc. and shouldn't you just be generally nice to everyone, and not talk behind their backs as a baseline rule?

but anyway, what i just realized in writing this, is that i tend to be much, much more loyal to ideals than to people. i understand loyalty to ideals, but it really alters the way my personal sense of loyalty works - i'm very, very dedicated to certain groups, but my loyalty is more to the ideals of those groups than to the people themselves. i feel like people are flighty, changing, make questionable decisions, and are not always good. ideals, on the other hand, are stable and detached. they're timeless, infallible, and don't change their minds.and overall, i don't like being loyal to people because i end up being torn in two directions - either being loyal to them or loyal to my ideals. because when it comes down to that, my own ethics are going to win out.

my understanding of people-loyalty is less "devotion" or "consistency" and more "unconditional love". it's much less uncomfortable and much more intutitive in that light.

I dont really feel "loyalty" to those I am in close relationships with. Loyalty isnt the correct word. Devotion is a better word to use. I am devoted to my children, to my SO, to my family. I am devoted to very close friends. It includes most of the above ideas about loyalty-but also includes a willingness to sacrifice myself if need be on their behalf. Like I have been given them as a gift to care for...

Ideas..I dunno..loyalty to a cause I feel is justified, maybe? But that really isnt loyalty as much as tenaciousness. If it is worthwhile I will fight, literally fight, for the cause.
Great points. This is where my confusion over the issue comes from. I don't feel loyalty in the traditional sense to people. I do as you guys have said, feel loyalty to the ideal however sometimes that ideal is aligned with a person - these could be friendship, trust, respect, gratitude etc. The problem arose when I tried to think of example situations of loyalty in my head I struggled to think of one where I would back a person up even when it clashes with some of my values - because how can you be truly loyal to someone if this bond is so easily broken?

I always think of a common dilemma in movies (and in real life for that matter):

Someone discovers that an immediate family member (eg son/daughter/brother/sister/spouse or an extremely close friend) has committed a crime and they must decide whether to turn them in to the police or not. More often than not (in Hollywood's version), people prefer to cover up the crime, feign ignorance or give a false alibi to protect that relative.

I guess this may be considered something of a Fi vs Fe loyalty situation (although we may come to similar conclusions just through different means), so it might be of worth to ask you what would you do in such a situation? To help make it easier, here are some more specific scenarios regarding the crime:

1. A non-violence offence in which no one was directly physically hurt or threatened (eg. minor fraud, shoplifting, small-scale drug-dealing)
2. A more involved crime in which people weren't hurt but may have been threatened or emotionally hurt (eg. stealing a handbag off someone in the street, threatening their spouse with a weapon, stalking an ex-girlfriend or boyfriend)
3. An offense that involves minor to moderate violence but is out of character and/or accidental (injuring someone in a pub fight, minor domestic violence, fleeing the scene of a car accident)
4. A severe crime involving serious violence or the threat of serious violence but your relative fiercely proclaims their innocence (eg. rape, murder, armed robbery, child abuse)
5. A serious crime involving serious violence or the threat of serious violence and it is apparent that your relative committed it (eg. rape, murder, armed robbery, child abuse)


- How would you act?
- To what extent you are willing to protect your loved one: passively (ie. not tell the police, feign ignorance in an investigation) or actively (ie. give false testimony, destroy evidence)?
- How would you feel about your loved one asking you to help them?
- If you turned them in and felt it was right to do so, would you still feel guilty about being disloyal?
- If you turned them in, would you still visit them in jail and support them through the trial?

Remember to think in context of those you really care about and be honest.


For me in cases 1-4 I may give my loved one the option of turning themselves in first but if they wavered I wouldn't hesitate to go to the police and tell them everything I knew. To me, in all cases I feel no obligation to protect them and for them to expect me to do so is to break the bond between us; it is to ask me to cast aside the things I believe in most and is an attempt to exploit our close relationship for selfish gains; both of which are totally unacceptable to me. I probably still would try to support my family member through the trial etc depending on the crime. But if the crime was horrible enough it would make me reconsider who they are as a human being - if I feel that they have violated my faith in them entirely I would have to cut ties with them. I guess this is what I mean when I say I value ideals over people.
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
Yes, won't it? Otherwise, you'd be loyal to everything and everyone, in which case it loses its meaning.

What if the person you chose to be loyal to displays questionable or hurtful behaviour? Will you follow him on that track and defend him?

Loving a friend, I think, means to point out his mistakes to him or even denounce him (in case of a crime) when he refuses to change and needs correction because this behaviour is leading him to destruction and also generates destruction around him.
 

JoSunshine

That's my name biotch!
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
659
MBTI Type
eNfj
Enneagram
2
I agree with this. I want to be loyal to truth and righteousness as much as possible. I am sorry when this led to being incisive. But some have thanked me later on.

I have a question. Will loyalty sometimes be synonymous with exclusion and favoritism?

I had to think about this one for a while and the short answer is yes. One of my sayings is, "I'm all stocked up on friends." It's not that I have a boatload or anything but because of the closeness of the relationships and frequency of contact, it is all I can handle in order to maintain balance in my life. So, yes I regularly show favoritism towards my core group of friends and invariably end up excluding people who aren't part of my inner circle. There are only so many hours in a day ;)

What if the person you chose to be loyal to displays questionable or hurtful behaviour? Will you follow him on that track and defend him?

Loving a friend, I think, means to point out his mistakes to him or even denounce him (in case of a crime) when he refuses to change and needs correction because this behaviour is leading him to destruction and also generates destruction around him.

Yes. I never defend what I believe to be wrong. However unless it is a matter of keeping another person safe (e.g. driving drunk), I generally won't impose my will, simply offer my opinion since right and wrong is subjective in most cases.
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The two things are not at all mutually exclusive. I would stick by him while telling him he needs to straighten up.
 

JoSunshine

That's my name biotch!
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
659
MBTI Type
eNfj
Enneagram
2
Thanks cascadeco for your thoughts. Not trying to speak in absolutes with my post above, just throwing it out there for feedback and more development.



Yes, I was thinking more Fe / Te dom.

I was thinking of a few of the powerful Fe people I know. They are very smart in the working world, and generally surround themselves with people who will essentially function as their "yes-people" in order to get stuff done. For example, years ago I had a tech contract at a post-secondary institution, and in my role attended the "big-wig" meetings ... The ENFJ president (so charismatic, he presented so well) - he would make suggestions at these meetings, then his first-level managers would all agree he had these great ideas, nod their heads that this is how they would proceed, then would go off after the meetings and do 1 of 2 things: implement what the boss wanted, or try to undermine the plans from behind the scenes. No one would challenge him in a meeting, ever. (It could be career-suicide of course ... anybody would know that! And these folks had sweet public-servant jobs ... why risk that?)

Maybe what I mean trying more to say is that if a person in power has an idea, public scrutiny of it is off-limits to a greater degree? Me, I would see it as more open to public debate, which is what a Te dom would expect, but with an Fe dom the same discussion could get me into serious Fe trouble.

But ... ughh, the games make me shudder.

Anyhoo, does that help at all? That ideas are MOL off-limits depending on who they originate from?

I don't think this is an Fe / Fi issue. At least not in my observation. Secure people can listen to constructive criticism and insecure people can't. I really think it is that simple. ENFJ's seem to keep coming up. I think that the obvious backlash is more a function of the E part of the equation. Extroverts are more aggressive. So an insecure extrovert who feels threatened will rip your head off and shove it up your ass...figuratively speaking of course. Whereas an insecure introvert is more likely to handle things in a more passive manner...one day you find that you are no longer invited to meetings.

Speaking personally, I work for myself. I've had two people who work for me. One is a production position...I have a yes man for that job. His job is to produce. By the time things get to him they have been approved and simply need to be implemented. He can point out mistakes or make requests that will make his job easier, but I honestly don't want his opinions on the merits of the work. Lucky for me, he has no desire to do anything but produce. The other is a creative position. I want his opinions, ideas, thoughts. If he disagrees with me I want to know why. I will often go with his opinion, but the final decision is mine. Sometimes he just has to shut up and do what I say. I'm the boss. That's how it works. And I in turn give my clients my opinion and if they disagree with me, I have to shut up and do what they say. It's the circle of life...or business as it were.
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
The two things are not at all mutually exclusive. I would stick by him while telling him he needs to straighten up.

Yeah, I agree with that. I suppose this leads us to a higher version of loyaltly than the one often observed. Perhaps certain attitudes are called "loyalty" but are not that. I think loyalty is a positive thing.

"Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses." (Proverbs 27:6)
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
one way i've found of getting around this, which i have learned mostly from observing my mom (ESFJ), is to flatter the person you're talking to while offering neutral suggestions as a different way of getting the intended outcome, if that makes sense. so in this example, maybe like telling the guy how much you appreciate his work, how people are really excited about it, etc, but mention that something occurred to you, which is that maybe he would be able to reach even more people by extending his efforts out to women too, if he hasn't already considered that (which, given Pi, he may well have, and chose not to for a specific reason.) and if he says he'd rather not, then he'll probably explain his reasoning why, and you can either be in accordance with that or, if you still disagree, present your case for why you think it'd be beneficial.

for me, it's been a big growing experience to need to shift myself to understand things in this light, but sometimes it's a much more effective system than the Fi-Te way of going about things. it feels a little disingenuous sometimes, but i try to think of it in terms of supporting and respecting the person while trying to change an outcome, instead of my conventional ideal-orientation. i think that it's hard to shift to people-loyalty, but when i'm thinking about my relationship with my best friend (ENFJ), for instance, i feel like i just have to "suspend" my own rules and be patient, and that's how i'm loyal to her. i know that she also has to do the same to put up with my more open temper and less interpersonal awareness.

Skylights, I thought this a beautiful testimony to what these forums can teach us about how to improve our interpersonal relations. And, I'm going to try it next time I have the opportunity and will post on here how it works. Of course, the Fi/Te in me feels like couching constructive criticism in a plethora of compliments is a little... well a lot inefficient and not necessarily being true to myself... but then again I'm capable of living beyond the Fi/Te box I was born into. If I can connect with someone on their own MBTI turf, then it is well worth the effort.

I do wonder if I had to work around a bunch of Fe/Ti users, if I'd eventually get exhausted taking the above approach. It does seem exhausting to me. On the other hand, I've already learned enough from the very, very gracious Fe/Ti users on this forum that they find accommodating my Fi/Te exhausting. So it's all good and even steven in the end. :)
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
I don't think this is an Fe / Fi issue. At least not in my observation. Secure people can listen to constructive criticism and insecure people can't. I really think it is that simple. ENFJ's seem to keep coming up. I think that the obvious backlash is more a function of the E part of the equation. Extroverts are more aggressive. So an insecure extrovert who feels threatened will rip your head off and shove it up your ass...figuratively speaking of course. Whereas an insecure introvert is more likely to handle things in a more passive manner...one day you find that you are no longer invited to meetings.

Speaking personally, I work for myself. I've had two people who work for me. One is a production position...I have a yes man for that job. His job is to produce. By the time things get to him they have been approved and simply need to be implemented. He can point out mistakes or make requests that will make his job easier, but I honestly don't want his opinions on the merits of the work. Lucky for me, he has no desire to do anything but produce. The other is a creative position. I want his opinions, ideas, thoughts. If he disagrees with me I want to know why. I will often go with his opinion, but the final decision is mine. Sometimes he just has to shut up and do what I say. I'm the boss. That's how it works. And I in turn give my clients my opinion and if they disagree with me, I have to shut up and do what they say. It's the circle of life...or business as it were.

This made me laugh so hard, JoSunshine. I think there is truth to what you're saying here. I think (hope) the bringing of up ENFJs on this thread was merely coincidental. However, it is understandable that among the NF types, ENFJs and ENFPs would experience the widest communication gulf in this area. So since I'm an ENFP, perhaps it is a little expected that these communication differences would be for me most salient with an ENFJ.

I, too, have wondered if this is truly an Fi/Te versus Fe/Ti issue, or if it has to do with personal maturity and security which is a pan-human kind of issue. I've concluded that it is both.

Average functioning vs. high functioning.
It seems to me that an average functioning Fe/Ti user and an average functioning Fi/Te user are likely to have friction when it comes to publicly critiquing ideas / behaviors. That being said, high functioning (read self-actualized / mature / secure) Fe/Ti and Fi/Te users can transcend the cognitive functions they were born to prefer. Isn't this the heart of maturity? Realizing that the whole world doesn't revolve around you? Realizing that other people have valid worldviews and (within reason) accommodating them?

Why I chose my examples. I think that the reason I picked the two examples that I did of Fe/Fi loyalty differences, is because they are so extreme that these Fe/Fi differences seemed very clear cut. However, I know what the readers of this thread do not: that the two gentlemen I referred to in my examples (one an INFJ, the other an ENFJ, and both Fe/Ti users), have exhibited immaturity about such things on more than these occasions. I make this judgment after watching them operate in several venues and with a wide array of people. Neither one has expressed self-actualization in the behaviors I've personally observed.
  • Click here to read the post in which I give my two examples.
So, JoSunshine, I think the answer to whether this is really an Fe/Fi issue or an immature/mature issue isn't so clear cut. I think both factors come into play.

In terms of my own maturity, I feel like I'm a much more mature person than I was even six months ago. At least now, I realize how my ENFP modus operandi can rub people the wrong way. And, I have learned how to anticipate this and tailor my approach to be more precise in my communication. After all, regardless of my intentions, if what I intend to communicate is misunderstood by the recipient, then we have a communication FAIL. I can only control my half of the bi-directional communication process. Thus, I started this thread so I could better understand these issues.

Thanks to everyone so far who has responded. I've read them all... even if I haven't had time to respond to everyone so far. Your responses have already helped me tremendously.

:hug:
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Skylights - I agree that what you describe is the more Fe-Ti way of going about things. I want to make a distinction (in case people wonder) that I would not ever say something flattering to someone that I did not actually believe to be true. That is why, to me, it doesn't feel like I am being disengenuous. It is true that I am expressing those good things as a means of the person being more receptive to what I might point out to them, but that doesn't mean I don't express the positives at other times as well when I am not trying to effect change.

One thing I read recently is research that suggests people do not react as well to the praise first, criticize after that we're all told to do nearly as well as expressing where you see the problem, and then segueing into the praise/solution, since the negative tends to have the greatest emotional impact and this makes the negatives more distant in the hearer's recall. I was sort of surprised by that. I wish I could remember the name of the book. They featured it in a whole article of MacLean's magazine earlier this fall.
 

Esoteric Wench

Professional Trickster
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
945
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Haha! This is why I try to stock a few Te users in my life. Thanks ma'am! I think I'd like to order it from our library as I thought it would be interesting to see what they had to say.
 

JoSunshine

That's my name biotch!
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
659
MBTI Type
eNfj
Enneagram
2
Yes EW, I read every post and wrote what my concept of loyalty is. I personally can't relate to the work example you gave at all. I think that I would definitely take more of a defensive stance if someone started telling me what is wrong with what I am doing or even feeling like someone had decided I was wrong before understanding why I made the choice I did. I have no idea if you sought to gain understanding before criticizing, but if not that could be the potential culprit. I can't speak for every Fe user, but would be off putting to me...maybe to a lot of people regardless of functions. That being said, I wouldn't get my ass on my shoulders either way...business is business. I'm rarely offended.

As far as defending my friends go. I will defend them if I feel they are right, but tell them they are wrong if I think they are wrong. If one of them is in a disagreement I usually only get involved to try to calm the situation. However I have been known to spring into action in a big way if I feel they are being threatened by an aggressive person. But even then my objective is to neutralize the situation and move on. I can see how a dramatic Fe user can take defending someone to unhealthy levels.

I guess after thinking about things a bit (my SO is an Fi user) that there are different concepts of loyalty on many levels. He handles things very differently than I do, but I generally don't perceive them as being wrong...frustrating at times...even more frustrating at others, but not wrong. I'm not sure how much of it is an Fe / Fi issue and how much of it is a me / him issue :)

My SO is an Fi user and I do think that we struggle with the concept of loyalty on a personal level at times.
 
Top