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  1. #21
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    What I am saying is that the end result of action depends on your type, but the type itself does not manifest itself across a full range of behaviours.
    You continue to corroborate her assessment, but find it necessary to argue a moot point in her delivery, and the assumption that everyone should be cognizant of the points being made. However, we both know this to be untrue in reading posts on forums. The article should be redundant and common knowledge, yet this being one of many fallacies that continue to be misinitepreted on the forums.

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ? View Post
    You continue to corroborate her assessment, but find it necessary to argue a moot point in her delivery, and the assumption that everyone should be cognizant of the points being made. However, we both know this to be untrue in reading posts on forums. The article should be redundant and common knowledge, yet this being one of many fallacies that continue to be misinitepreted on the forums.
    I am not agreeing with her - don't take my politeness in how I'm saying it to mean that I'm in agreement. Let me make this clear:

    She's wrong. She's wrong about the tendecy to be on time and she's wrong about the tendency to be orderly. She is wrong to phrase it in absolutes and she is wrong to make a false argument about it. And it is also wrong to take her rant literally and to repost is seperate from the original issue. It makes it look like there is no difference between Js and Ps for those two traits. I don't want to take it out on her because she obviously was ranting against something specific.

    Since they are actual measures on many MBTI tests (short forms, hybrids, I don't know about Step II for sure), it is talked about in MBTI papers and even mainstream correlations between MBTI and FFM, these factors are a part of the J/P divide.

    In case I'm not clear with what I disagree with, this is exactly why I have an issue for it

    Quote Originally Posted by ?
    Other than that, cleanliness and being on time has no bearing on the J/P dichotomy.
    This is both logically and demonstrably false and I don't want people to walk away from the original post, or the follow up, thinking this. The fact that MBTI is a preference system doesn't mean "not all" can become "no bearing".

  3. #23
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I am not agreeing with her - don't take my politeness in how I'm saying it to mean that I'm in agreement. Let me make this clear:
    You base your response on how the dichotomies should work in theory, not on how they apply to real life situations. So, we will have to agree to disagree, since I know too many SJs who are ruthlessly messy and consistently late for appointments.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    You base your response on how the dichotomies should work in theory, not on how they apply to real life situations. So, we will have to agree to disagree, since I know too many SJs who are ruthlessly messy and consistently late for appointments.
    I'm confused. Aren't you agreeing with him now?

  5. #25
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I'm confused. Aren't you agreeing with him now?
    I share the sentiment... so is typology nothing more than a theory that tries to capture the general trends in behaviour of people? In this case, division of J/P should only be determined by need for closure vs openness? Then the rest about organization, being on time is just typically tendencies associated with J/P. That has always been my take on this.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I share the sentiment... so is typology nothing more than a theory that tries to capture the general trends in behaviour of people? In this case, division of J/P should only be determined by need for closure vs openness? Then the rest about organization, being on time is just typically tendencies associated with J/P. That has always been my take on this.
    Type is a cognitive theory which leads to behaviour. They test behaviour to try to determine type.

    J/P is defined by the five main traits;

    Systematic
    Planful
    Early Starting
    Scheduled
    Methodical

    The logic goes that these are the traits that make up the J/P divide, which makes up the attitude of the other functions (Ti vs Te).

    The problem is that the world isn't just in our minds - we grow up with other pressures and we do react differently. Even assuming that we can say people are J or P absolutely, the end result is that they grew up different and apply it differently. So the behaviours are seperated into groups of questions that lead to a +/- for each of the 5 main traits, which are then measured to get the J/P divide.

    One of the questions to determine J/P (where it fits in nowadays, I don't know... Step II breakdowns are hard to find) is if you are organised and if you are generally on time (I believe they fit into systemic and scheduled respectively). So effectively, yes - they are just behaviours that will typically be associated with J/P, since answering "yes" to either one increases the "J" factor (and negatively means "P" factor)... within the scope of the test itself, anyway.

  7. #27
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Pgatsby, are you of the mind that the auxiliary function may take more time to develop (if ever) than the theory proposes? Your thoughts remind me of the personalitypage.com growth theory, in that if the auxiliary function does not emancipate itself, then it will remain a slave to the dominant function. As a result, IJs will painfully take on perceiving type traits.

  8. #28
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Here are some very brief remarks on the J/P discrepancy...

    Js are left-brained in a vernacular sense of the term... so they tend to take it one thing at a time... whereas Ps are right brained and dive right into the midst of things..

    Notice how SPs work experientially with tools (physically) whereas SJs (also in affinity with the physical world) tend to be more detached from the object..and how in school SPs do better with hands on activities..

    NPs and NJs have the same kind of a relationship... NPs imagine themselves in the entity that they are learning about and explore ideas... whereas NJs first chart the course and then go at it..when a J(stereotypical J ) writes a letter... they'd first sit back to think things through and write when they know exactly what they are going to write about...whereas Ps would dive right into it and figure it out on the fly..

    Ps tend to have a strong sense of inner purpose(introverted judgment)... Js not so much... their purpose is externally focused and this is why they tend to be good finishers because they assess their progress based on external benchmarks..and not internal and derive their sense of competence not from internal extrapolations but by how they are judged by the external standard..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #29
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Pgatsby, are you of the mind that the auxiliary function may take more time to develop (if ever) than the theory proposes? Your thoughts remind me of the personalitypage.com growth theory, in that if the auxiliary function does not emancipate itself, then it will remain a slave to the dominant function. As a result, IJs will painfully take on perceiving type traits.

    It is true that IJ's superior function is a perceiving function, but we should note that it is also left-brained, and in this regard it relates more pertinently to the conventional judging functions than to the conventional perceiving functions.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    NPs and NJs have the same kind of a relationship... NPs imagine themselves in the entity that they are learning about and explore ideas... whereas NJs first chart the course and then go at it..when a J(stereotypical J ) writes a letter... they'd first sit back to think things through and write when they know exactly what they are going to write about...whereas Ps would dive right into it and figure it out on the fly..
    Blue Wing, we seem to prescribe to similar studies, Lenore Thomson and Linda V. Berens. I agree with your thoughts, however, ISTP also has a "chart the course" interaction style. For that reason, I think the type resonates more with IJs than IPs in general. I do agree that perceiving types prefer experiential and hands on learning, which in simple terms is body based. I learn better from hands on experience as opposed to reading. I am comfortable with theory, but like all SPs, it must be applicable. I understand INTJs feel the same way.

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