The accuracy of the MBTI system

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Hello. Haven't been on in a few months. While I'm sure none to few of you care at all, here's why.

I do not trust this system anymore (Though I can't stop analysing with it Aaargh! Seriously, I need to stop, it's driving me crazy.).

The first problem with the MBTI system that I no longer trust is the function order. Through studying myself and various characters and people over the time I spent here, I've noticed that it is very common for people to not fit their function order or having supposedly contradicting functions. And one of the most common instances of this is when people have both Xx and Xy functions. I, for example, can not decide whether I am INTP or INFP. I detatch myself, analyse, search for things I've missed, strive for accuracy and truth, fit everything into logical systems, make decisions on a rational basis follow areas of technical interest with little regard to it's practicality etc. But also, I feel intensely, get attatched to people and care deeply about them, think of the world as full of beauty, have strong morals, like to express my emotions artistically, etc. The thing is, these elements of Ti and Fi are supposed to contradict each other and not appear in the same person, but they have hardly any contradiction at all. A fictional example is the character of Daria from Daria. Does it appear to you that a person could not retain the qualities mentioned in my above description? And as a nother example, Ne and Se. If someone enjoys coming up with crazy ideas and concepts, why does that mean they can't also enjoy exciting physical activities and experiences and notice things around them? A few examples of this in fiction are Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Carribean and Kelso from That 70's show.

Another thing is that these functions are supposed to be single aspects of ourselves, and yet in descriptions of them, and typing people with them, not only do people frequently disagree on the definitions (leading me to believe that they are poorly defined in the first place) but often appear very multi-faceted. For example, going by what I have most recently learned, Te is a function that judges something's worth based on what it is told (as opposed to Ti which goes into thought to verify the logicality (word?) of it), and uses that knowledge to make quick decisions. Yet somehow this also means that Te users (in some cases and something a Ti user cannot do at all for some reason) work hard and efficiently to reach recognisable goals and have a strong desire to make everything efficient and organised (seriously, what does that have to do with it?). They also seem to share some aspects with other functions, and as an example, both Ti and Te want things to be logically correct (or what they believe to be logically correct). If someone appears to have one function but also another function, the typer may say that one of them is just another function behaving in the same way. This is just one example, but it can be applied to most or all of the functions as they are given. And another thing. After many threads, I still don't understand precisely what Ni is, since all I get is hundreds of disagreeing pseudological answers.

Also, sorry if this doesn't make sense. I am awful at explaining what I mean. It makes sense in my head but I tend to choose the wrong words or make mistakes when putting it down in reality.

My point is, is this system really as accurate and definite and comprehensive as we make out here? Are there things that haven't been considered? I want to know what you think about this. Maybe all these holes have a rational explanation. Or maybe MBTI is an insufficient way of explaining people. For other people with functions that do not fit in a type precisely, what do you have to say in that regard?

 

[Craft]

Since it doesn't serves as adequate language for the psyche, your mind should inevitably discard it.

I agree with the lack of definiteness, but this could possibly be due to my plain ignorance of data. Eh, in what way does MBTI proclaim that Ti and Fi are in opposition?

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Since it doesn't serves as adequate language for the psyche, your mind should inevitably discard it.

I agree with the lack of definiteness, but this could possibly be due to my plain ignorance of data. Eh, in what way does MBTI proclaim that Ti and Fi are in opposition?

By this I mean that it says that if someone is of a type that uses Ti as one of their 4 dominant functions, they cannot use Fi as one of their 4 dominant functions. In my case it would seem that Ti is probably my dominant but that my Fi is close to my Ne (above or below varies), which is totally impossible under the system as it stands.

EDIT: Also, despite the fact that I doubt the system's credibility, I find it very difficult to avoid analysing with it. It's like an addiction, and not a particularly pleasant one, where I try and fit everyone and every action or thought into some sort of logical system, the one I have available being MBTI. It's actually very distracting from anything else.

 

[Craft]

By this I mean that it says that if someone is of a type that uses Ti as one of their 4 dominant functions, they cannot use Fi as one of their 4 dominant functions. In my case it would seem that Ti is probably my dominant but that my Fi is close to my Ne (above or below varies), which is totally impossible under the system as it stands.

You don't think it is Fe instead?

EDIT: Also, despite the fact that I doubt the system's credibility, I find it very difficult to avoid analysing with it. It's like an addiction, and not a particularly pleasant one, where I try and fit everyone and every action or thought into some sort of logical system, the one I have available being MBTI. It's actually very distracting from anything else.

Because it is available? Have you thought of ways to remedy yourself?

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

You don't think it is Fe instead?

Possibly, but then, Fe is only the INTPs inferior, and by all means should not be very strong anyway. Also, it seems far closer to Fi. I fit the Fe description very little, less, actually, than what I hear from many Fi users (ie. they tend to mention more of a desire to be socially accepted and adjust to situations to please people, things I rarely do). And this returns to another point I made earlier, that if a type has a function they cannot have, people will substitute another possible function, in this case being that you are saying since I can't have Fi it must be Fe.

Because it is available? Have you thought of ways to remedy yourself?

I've tried telling myself to stop every time I think about it, and that sorta works, but it's very tiresome (because I think about it CONSTANTLY) and I often forget to restrict it. I've heard hypnotherapy could help but is expensive.

 

[Craft]

Possibly, but then, Fe is only the INTPs inferior, and by all means should not be very strong anyway. Also, it seems far closer to Fi. I fit the Fe description very little, less, actually, than what I hear from many Fi users (ie. they tend to mention more of a desire to be socially accepted and adjust to situations to please people, things I rarely do). And this returns to another point I made earlier, that if a type has a function they cannot have, people will substitute another possible function, in this case being that you are saying since I can't have Fi it must be Fe.

Yep, I've had a similar problem but I realized Fe in me so I wasn't complaining.

What about Te instead of Ti?

I've tried telling myself to stop every time I think about it, and that sorta works, but it's very tiresome (because I think about it CONSTANTLY) and I often forget to restrict it. I've heard hypnotherapy could help but is expensive.

How much does it harm you? in what way?

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Yep, I've had a similar problem but I realized Fe in me so I wasn't complaining.

What about Te instead of Ti?

Also thought of that with similar results. I don't like to trust information I'm given and I run over it in my head to try and figure out it's accuracy (although accuracy checking tends to be something Te users do as well). I get annoyed at people who say things without credible sources (like my EXTJ teacher, whom I often argued with) or reasonable logic. I constantly reconsider things. I am awful at rote things and lose attention if somthing doesn't interest me. I search for understanding ans spend much time in thought. And so on and so on. Doesn't seem to fit. Also, Te in INFPs is very low, though I guess I could be an ENFP or ESTJ (No way my Ne is lower than 3rd, but I don't really relate to ESTJs much at all). But that's sort of besides the point anyway, because I do not relate to Te very much at all. I suppose I have a few aspects of organisation, but that seems very selective, as my bookcase is very neat and organised but my room is messy as hell. And as I said I do not understand why Te specifically means you like organisation. Hm... that was a long rant.

How much does it harm you? in what way?

It just bugs me because I think about it so much and I don't like doing so anymore. I'd rather just get on with other things.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Nobody has anything to say?

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah, I've said a lot about it, all over the board, about how I've rejected function theory and have just typed myself by the four dichotomies more or less Keirsey style.

Too many similar behaviors blamed upon seemingly endless combinations of functions, disagreements over what Fe vs. Fi even is, and the absolute preposterousness of not being able to base it upon observable behavior, and the outright insanity of "function order" stacking.

I just don't feel like talking about it anymore.

 

[KDude]

I'm in the same boat with overthinking (not just for my own sake, but out of the need to make sense of it in general). I must have Fi or Fe though, because I sympathize quite a bit. As for your concern about Fi, I know that Lenore Thomson speaks about Ti doms being able to draw upon Fi as a "right brain alternative" (and vice versa). Other theories may not allow that freedom, and that's where we get these stereotypes that pigeonhole people. She covers her bases though, and makes room for extreme Tis who don't know anything about Fi (or Fe) - she attributes that to lack of extroverted perception (basically being self absorbed and not truly learning about the external world enough) - but should that really be the case for everyone? I doubt it. Just think of this shit in terms of preference. Maybe that will help (btw, I need to follow my own advice too. Just thinking out loud here).

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

I'm in the same boat with overthinking (not just for my own sake, but out of the need to make sense of it in general). I must have Fi or Fe though, because I sympathize quite a bit. As for your concern about Fi, I know that Lenore Thomson speaks about Ti doms being able to draw upon Fi as a "right brain alternative" (and vice versa). Other theories may not allow that freedom, and that's where we get these stereotypes that pigeonhole people. She covers her bases though, and makes room for extreme Tis who don't know anything about Fi (or Fe) - she attributes to lack of perception (basically being self absorbed and not truly learning about the external world enough) - but should that really be the case for everyone? I doubt it. Just think of this shit in terms of preference. Maybe that will help (btw, I need to follow my own advice too. Just thinking out loud here).

That's an interesting view, because yeah, I honestly don't see the contradiction between the two. So INTPs can channel Fi and vice versa I guess? I know at least 2 other INXPs (I seem to draw a similar crowd) who show both of these and I can't decide which they are. One minute they'd be an obvious INTP and then the other they'd be a total INFP. I'm thinking maybe the functions should never have been divided into types at all, and just been left so you choose you own function order without it being contradictory to the system.

 

[wildcat]

Yeah, I've said a lot about it, all over the board, about how I've rejected function theory and have just typed myself by the four dichotomies more or less Keirsey style.

Too many similar behaviors blamed upon seemingly endless combinations of functions, disagreements over what Fe vs. Fi even is, and the absolute preposterousness of not being able to base it upon observable behavior, and the outright insanity of "function order" stacking.

I just don't feel like talking about it anymore.

You are are perfectly right.
I do not feel like talking about it either.
What a shamble.
Keirsey is all right.
The other four functions are in between. They do not get it.
There is nothing we can do about it.

 

[Salomé]

I do not trust this system anymore (Though I can't stop analysing with it Aaargh! Seriously, I need to stop, it's driving me crazy.).

The first problem with the MBTI system that I no longer trust is the function order.

I think we've talked about this before.
-Cognitive function theory is an adjunct to MBTI - no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
-There is more than one theory about function order. As KDude suggests, Thomson has Fi in top 4, Beebe/Berens has it last (for INTPs). All function theory is purely speculative and not born out empirically. The fact that some people treat it as gospel says more about their lack of understanding and need for dogma than it does about the theory.
-I have good conscious use of Ti and Fi too (and little to no conscious use of Fe ). This is actually not uncommon for INTPs.
-I understand your exasperation with this board. Threads / posts insisting on the difference between Te/Fi users or Ti/Fe users are irritatingly stupid, as are people who say stuff like "You must be in a Ti/Si loop", "You must be INTJ if you have Fi". It's absurdly dogmatic. Ignore the fuckers. As a Ti/Fi user, it shouldn't be too hard.
-One problem I have with Ti+Fe models, is that according to every theory I've considered, one does not typically have conscious use of one's inferior function until late in life - which automatically rules out the vast majority of the people on this board. So when teenage INTPs talk about their Fe use, (or Fe-doms talk about their Ti-use) they are talking out of their asses, in my view. Ti and Fe are in diametric opposition, and logically you can't develop both equally well early in life. (Ti and Fi are not).
But others will see it differently, and you can go around and around in circles getting nowhere.

EDIT: Also, despite the fact that I doubt the system's credibility, I find it very difficult to avoid analysing with it. It's like an addiction, and not a particularly pleasant one, where I try and fit everyone and every action or thought into some sort of logical system, the one I have available being MBTI. It's actually very distracting from anything else.

This too, shall pass.

I was like this for a while. I'm not sure what's so seductive about this scheme. Maybe it's a Ti thing. You scent out an interesting model with a bit of complexity and you obsess over it, trying to understand it, trying to get all your ducks in a row, trying to make it logically consistent with everything else you know, poking around the unsatisfactory holes and edges. (Because it's about people, and people are irritatingly complicated, and the things Ti-doms probably struggle to understand the most, it's a particularly compelling shorthand). As more and more flaws become apparent, you pretty much lose interest in it and move on to something else.

 

[animenagai]

Yeah, I basically agree with what you said, I just don't see it as a big issue. I look at functions now rather than type, and imo that is the logical choice. I have rejected the 'standard' function order for a while now and I really see no reason to stick to it. Even the psychologists disagree on this matter, so I don't see why I couldn't. I take the types to be paraphrases of either the your two strongest functions or be general molds or archetypes that we use for the sake of simplicity. In other words, when I say someone is an ENFP, I can either mean that he/she is an NeFi (this is what I prefer) or that he/she resembles the Ne Fi Te Si Ni Fe Ti Se order a lot. I think the theory still has a lot of interesting things about it and in many ways it does work. People just have to realise that we haven't QUITE got it all right yet.

 

[IZthe411]

^ Agree with above. This is a totally subjective experience. It's good to read the experts as some guidance, but they are only going to get you so far.

Best thing to do identify the dominant and seconday function of a person. I don't always think it's always I/E or E/I or even J/P or P/J. I think it differs from person to person, and order as well.

Also, try to focus on the descriptions of people who are actually using the function. A Fe user trying to discuss Fi is usually wrong. Like anything, textbook knowledge fails compared to actual experience.

I agree with the person who said that development also takes time, so consider if the info is coming from some kid who should be studying for a final right now, instead of on the message board.

 

[Chaotic Harmony]

I try not to think about it too much. I've noticed the more I analyzed it, the more confused and irritated I got. In the end I just found the type description that fit me the best, and paid attention to people who were typed as that type... I found that I related the most to the ISFPs, the description fit me the best, and I stopped worrying about it. Obviously, nobody is going to fit their type 100%.

 

[Eric B]

Hello. Haven't been on in a few months. While I'm sure none to few of you care at all, here's why.

I do not trust this system anymore (Though I can't stop analysing with it Aaargh! Seriously, I need to stop, it's driving me crazy.).

The first problem with the MBTI system that I no longer trust is the function order. Through studying myself and various characters and people over the time I spent here, I've noticed that it is very common for people to not fit their function order or having supposedly contradicting functions. And one of the most common instances of this is when people have both Xx and Xy functions. I, for example, can not decide whether I am INTP or INFP. I detatch myself, analyse, search for things I've missed, strive for accuracy and truth, fit everything into logical systems, make decisions on a rational basis follow areas of technical interest with little regard to it's practicality etc. But also, I feel intensely, get attatched to people and care deeply about them, think of the world as full of beauty, have strong morals, like to express my emotions artistically, etc. The thing is, these elements of Ti and Fi are supposed to contradict each other and not appear in the same person, but they have hardly any contradiction at all. A fictional example is the character of Daria from Daria. Does it appear to you that a person could not retain the qualities mentioned in my above description? And as a nother example, Ne and Se. If someone enjoys coming up with crazy ideas and concepts, why does that mean they can't also enjoy exciting physical activities and experiences and notice things around them? A few examples of this in fiction are Jack Sparrow from Pirates of the Carribean and Kelso from That 70's show.

As I always say (to add to what others have said), the function order is not about strength. The strongest function is likely dominant, but you can't then assume other functions then must tall into a hard order in relation to it.
(And I believe Daria is an ISTJ, or if nothing else, an INTJ, so whatever Fi you are seeing would be tertiary. Since they're introverted, and logical, they might look like an "introverted Thinker", but going by Interaction Styles, she seems too "directive" (consistently cynical, etc) to be an NP).

 

[Stanton Moore]

Mr. Holmes:

I largely agree with the OP. MBTI, at best, only describes surface features; it does not take into account what a person has experiences in their life; it ignores the fact that we all use our senses all of the time; it ignores the fact that everyone has emotions and logic; it refuses the possibility of personal evolution.
I'm both logical and emotional, factual and artistic. I don't see any contradiction.
And what the hell is Si anyway? All of my senses, by definition, are directed toward the outside world. If it's just memory, then call it that.

 

[IZthe411]

Mr. Holmes:

I largely agree with the OP. MBTI, at best, only describes surface features; it does not take into account what a person has experiences in their life; it ignores the fact that we all use our senses all of the time; it ignores the fact that everyone has emotions and logic; it refuses the possibility of personal evolution.
I'm both logical and emotional, factual and artistic. I don't see any contradiction.
And what the hell is Si anyway? All of my senses, by definition, are directed toward the outside world. If it's just memory, then call it that.

It's not memory. It's internalized perception based on tangibles, as opposed to Ni, which is based on intangibles. Both are based on some sort of memory, otherwise there would be no basis. I think Si tends to stay in the realm of what it has where Ni looks for something that may not be there yet.

 

[Stanton Moore]

It's not memory. It's internalized perception based on tangibles, as opposed to Ni, which is based on intangibles. Both are based on some sort of memory, otherwise there would be no basis. I think Si tends to stay in the realm of what it has where Ni looks for something that may not be there yet.

This is the kind of self-referential definition that I take issue with. Anything I perceive or sense has to come from outside of me. If I 'sense' something within my mind, then I'm not sensing at all...
Victor is correct: MBTI is to the 20th & 21st centuries what astrology was to the 19th.