Forbes says: Flirt your way into the corner office.

[Bamboo]

Back up a second. The article is clearly aimed toward taking actions (with little regard of their genuine nature) which will advance your position with your superiors. It is to this content (and this interpretation of the content) to which I wrote my original post. (The article did include details such as 'flirting will only get you so far' but I found the tone exploitive). Let's not lose that.

These two posts conflict. Either people are supposed to get along or they're supposed to be direct and honest.

Are you summarizing my posts as "Either people are supposed to get along or they're supposed to be direct and honest" or making a declarative statement of your own? I don't understand.

So, say you're naturally flirtatious and flirt with both genders as a sign of friendliness. Must you stop being this way if this person can advance your career?

Quick answer, no. There's a communication gap here so before we run down tangents let's check the main assumptions we're working with.

 

[Bamboo]

I think you may not understand what I meant by civilized,

I'd add that all the regular rules still apply, meaning, conduct yourself as a civilized person, regardless if you like who you are dealing with or not, or perhaps more applicable to this article - whether or not they are an individual who you can use for your own advancement.

... but I'll let you confirm before I chase that one down.

Also, you have an unusual definition of "flirt" above,

So, say you're naturally flirtatious and flirt with both genders as a sign of friendliness.

... which may be exasperating communication problems. Most people do not flirt with both genders much less as a sign of friendliness. Sexuality differences aside I'll entertain the concept of "platonic flirtation" but that's just called being friendly.

Flirting typically conveys romantic or sexual intent.

 

[rav3n]

Back up a second. The article is clearly aimed toward taking actions (with little regard of their genuine nature) which will advance your position with your superiors. It is to this content (and this interpretation of the content) to which I wrote my original post. (The article did include details such as 'flirting will only get you so far' but I found the tone exploitive). Let's not lose that.

The article is also silent on the genuine nature of these flirtatious interactions. Nowhere does it say that you dislike or don't respect the superiors that you're interacting with.

Are you summarizing my posts as "Either people are supposed to get along or they're supposed to be direct and honest" or making a declarative statement of your own? I don't understand.

Yes, I'm summarising your posts.

Quick answer, no. There's a communication gap here so before we run down tangents let's check the main assumptions we're working with.

Okay, cool. Another question for you. Do you feel it's wrong that men "dress for success" in the office?

 

[A window to the soul]

^You spin me right round baby right round... try as you may, you can't spin this. The article is as ridiculous as the argument. The title speaks for itself, "sleep flirt your way into the corner office."

The connotation is what it is.

EDIT: For clarification, I'm not suggesting the connotation is "sleep your way into the corner office." I'm suggesting that the connotation of the title, as written by the author, has a negative vibe. I threw the 'sleep' part in there to make you laugh. Me imagining the author throwing ideas around before deciding on a topic.

Titles w/positive connotation:

"work", "earn", "lead"...
"____ your way to a corner office"

When I'm at work, I work. I take my job very seriously and I forsee how my success or failure will affect everybody else on the team. In other words, if I develop a less than quality software product because I'm focused on flirting my way out of "cubicle paradise" and into a "corner office", then not only have I 'failed' myself (due to poor quality work), but I've brought the team down with me. (Leaving them to unfairly pick up the slack.) That would rob me of any joys of attaining the corner office.

Looking at it in that context, the article is not logical. For me, there isn't enough time in the day to effectively work and make the social rounds. Perhaps the advice offered in this article is more useful for someone with little responsibility and a lot of time.

 

[rav3n]

No spin. There is more than one way to perceive anything. Maybe I'm the P and you're the J?

 

[rav3n]

I'm a P. I play hard. I play fair. I play fair because when I make the rules, I care about people and the overall well-being of the 'group'. There is nothing admirable about a 'phony' getting a corner office for being all talk, no action (no work). I don't care how hot & sexy you are. I'll be professional to you, but I wouldn't entertain/reward the advances with a promotion. Thanx-goodness my parents literally beat the P-irresponsibility out of me; most of it.

You give men little to no credit. It would take a major duffus to promote someone just because they flirted with them. If the skills aren't there to back it up, it ain't gonna' happen. Flirting, being friendly and dressing for success get you noticed.

We're not talking about sleeping with a superior to get a promotion. That's outside of the scope of this article.

 

[A window to the soul]

You give men little to no credit.

Tap, tap, tap. Is this thing on?? ^Me? lolz! I didn't write the article, nor do I agree with it.

Am I speaking in German again?

 

[rav3n]

I'm a P. I play hard. I play fair. I play fair because when I make the rules, I care about people and the overall well-being of the 'group'. There is nothing admirable about a 'phony' getting a corner office for being all talk, no action (no work). I don't care how hot & sexy you are. I'll be professional to you, but I wouldn't entertain/reward the advances with a promotion. Thanx-goodness my parents literally beat the P-irresponsibility out of me; most of it.

Tap, tap, tap. Is this thing on?? Me? lolz, I didn't write the article, nor do I agree with it.

Am I speaking in German again?

Tap, tap, tap, your posts are recorded. P's usually have a pretty good memory for detail, particularly when they just posted it in the prior post.

Anyways, this discussion with you is seriously getting silly. I'm out.

 

[A window to the soul]

Forbes Article Titled, "FLIRT YOUR WAY INTO THE CORNER OFFICE"

^

There is nothing admirable about a 'phony' getting a corner office for being all talk, no action (no work).

You give men little to no credit. It would take a major duffus to promote someone just because they flirted with them.

...Flirting, being friendly and dressing for success get you noticed.

^Me (not give men credit)? lolz! I didn't write the article, nor do I agree with it.

 

[Bamboo]

The article is also silent on the genuine nature of these flirtatious interactions. Nowhere does it say that you dislike or don't respect the superiors that you're interacting with.

True. I'm filling in the blanks with bad things, you're filling them in with good ones. The article itself is fairly ambivalent.

Yes, I'm summarising your posts.

Incorrectly. I'll put the burden on you to describe how they are contradictory.

Based on other responses, I doubt I'll get much from it, but I feel some obligation to respond.

Okay, cool. Another question for you. Do you feel it's wrong that men "dress for success" in the office?

You might lump "dressing well" and "flirting your way in the door" into the same category, but I don't.

I do handyman work and network like everyone else. I wouldn't get the half the clients I do if I dryly told people "I am competent at the task you described, hire me" while I scowled at them.

And I recognize that in many cases my clients are women. They don't want some scary looking guy coming into their house with a bag of tools which could double as weapons. I'm clean cut. I wear clothing that is frequently cleaner and nicer than it needs to be. I tend to do electrical work in my standard khaki and black, for instance. I keep my tools clean and organized, and I use quality gear.

To say that I've encountered flirtatious undertones in my work is an understatement. But they have tended to be more damaging than anything else. I've dropped clients who have flirted with me inappropriately.

However, I have told flirtatious jokes to my boss (separate business). Once, in a busy streak, I did something useful and she responded that I 'read her mind.' I quickly responded "I know what you're thinking right now, and it's inappropriate." As I walked away to my next task she laughed and yelled down the hall "yeah right dream on." It was funny and a mood boost for everyone. Including her husband who I'm good friends with. (We constantly rib each other.) I wouldn't consider it if I wasn't close with the people involved, and there was no "power play."



The main point is: the author sounds like she is full of crap, and is encouraging behavior which sounds forced, disgenuine, and exploitative, which I deem offensive.

 

[rav3n]

Exploitive? In what way? It's a feel-good interaction between two adults, who know what's going on. You really have to read the individuals involved where some are fine and others take a more puritanical approach to life.

 

[sculpting]

Touchiness at work is kind of weird because each person has a specific comfort limit. Each person also has certain signals that indicate simple friendship and then a desire for more. However if those signals are not the same-you have confusion. The same can be said for light hearted banter or even just fun spirited interaction-thus caution seems like a good idea

I hate to admit this, but once I started dressing up for work a bit more-suddenly the male executives would pay attention to me and actually interact with me more. It is kinda sad, but I guess this is just the way the world is.

Having said this I have determined our Sales and Marketing department boosts sales via Dionysianistic fertility rites involving sex, drugs and booze.

 

[A window to the soul]

Being logical people, we know there’s a time and place for flirting. Flirting, by definition, portrays sexual desire without serious intentions.

On the other hand, "Dressing to impress", portrays a professional image that says one is serious, respectable, and confident. It can be an indication that one genuinely cares about how they are perceived. As a general rule, the outside is a reflection of the inside. Not the fairest of judgments, but it's a fact of life.

As for flirting ones way into anything, though it may be very exciting, a wise man knows it's fruitless and the gratification is short-lived. There's a lifetime of fulfillment in being real, working hard, and leaving a legacy.

 

[Salomé]

I think what it does is boost the ego. It gives the illusion that women are attracted sexually to the men even if they won't cross the lines for professional reasons. The ego is still boosted by the undercurrent of possibility. The problem is that the ego is equally offended when that undercurrent possibility is not offered. A woman can make male enemies based on that alone.

True 'dat.

What the article is suggesting is tacky and unethical. Also less than effective, according to at least one study...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2005-08-04-sex-usat_x.htm

Flirtatious behaviour in women is usually allied with submissive postures and being submissive in a competitive environment isn't usually the best way to get ahead.

Other studies have suggested that flirting in the workplace is demoralising for women (though not men) probably because such environments increase the potential for sexual threat/harassment.

 

[miss fortune]

I'm just offended that finding interest in what people say, asking them questions, smiling and making eye contact is apparently "flirting"

seriously... I genuinely find people interesting and always smile and make eye contact with people I speak to... it shows that you value them as a person! What's worst is that I get interpreted as flirting by customers from time to time who seem to think that ANY girl who smiles at them and shows interest in their humanity is trying to get them in bed... and then they take that as an invitation :steam:

I don't use a submissive posture or behaviors, just what I would call common friendliness, but apparently the article thinks otherwise :rolli:

 

[highlander]

There is already pressure for women to flirt in professional fields. It is a way of mixing the assertiveness of your skill and knowledge with passive, submissive gestures that are a reminder of one's 'gender role". I don't know what banking is like, but the performing arts can have a lot of this sort of thing going on. The communication can get convoluted. I think some women can handle it, but not all. I can't and have no desire to try. I also see it as a filter. If a potential employer wants someone who gives him that extra little tingle and not whoever is most qualified, then it doesn't sound like the right work environment for me. You present yourself that way, then you are expected to deliver - if not in an overtly sexual way, it is in a more subtle way to boost hormonal levels throughout the day and provide new fodder for sexual fantasies.

I don't know about guys, but I see women doing this all the time at work, so this perspective is interesting and probably true.

It's the subtle stuff that's not really well described in the article, which Annwn alludes to in one of her later posts, that I've noticed - that kind of eye contact, the hair thing, primping/preening gestures, etc. Women do this with people in more senior positions though I've had clients do it too, which has surprised me. It also seems the more attractive women are the ones who do it. It's as if they know they're attractive and use this as one of their techniques. It's all pretty harmless and I think it does work. I'd imagine they are selective in who they do it with though I don't really know. I would think it irritates other women more than anyone. There is an extremely capable INTP woman I know really well who gets very annoyed with women who do those things.

 

[Salomé]

I'm just offended that finding interest in what people say, asking them questions, smiling and making eye contact is apparently "flirting"

seriously... I genuinely find people interesting and always smile and make eye contact with people I speak to... it shows that you value them as a person! What's worst is that I get interpreted as flirting by customers from time to time who seem to think that ANY girl who smiles at them and shows interest in their humanity is trying to get them in bed... and then they take that as an invitation :steam:

I don't use a submissive posture or behaviors, just what I would call common friendliness, but apparently the article thinks otherwise :rolli:

I think it was pretty explicit:

Maintain eye contact, smile, show interest by asking questions, listen. Then comes a dash of flirtatious nuance. Williams defines flirting as an effort to make the other person feel confident and attractive (the dictionary definition isn't far off: "to behave amorously without serious intent"), so she also advises giving an authentic compliment or offering a touch on the hand.

Given that men can and do interpret common courtesy as serious flirtation, advising women to start offering compliments and deliberately (self-consciously) touching their male employers whilst dressing in deliberately provocative ways seems ill-advised, at best. Especially when the article points to the example of one woman for whom it back-fired: "when she came out of the restroom, one of the men cornered her and said, "I'll give you something to touch."

I lolled.

 

[sculpting]

At the end of the article Salome posted it said "Women need to be aware that when they say "It's a nice day," men will often conclude "She wants me,"

I think this is my primary concern. When I first came to the forum there were several threads about ENFPs being flirty-it was weird as what they described to me was not flirting and did not indicate sexual interest. Yet some of the ENTPs said to them it was deemed interest and the concern was that others feelings would be hurt. When I observed myself, I realized that my natural Fi water sprinkler tendencies could and had been misunderstood in the past. It made me more careful about the messages I give across. On the other hand, I had often misunderstood ENTP men and the way they touch me as signs of interest and had actually been made quite uncomfortable at times.

^^This is just a specific example, type related example of how behaviors may be misunderstood even when no intent is implied. If intent to flirt really is present, then it can be even more confusing.

Also, as an aside, when I see women being overtly flirty, not like whatever's description of friendly, but being delibretly provocative or acting weak and needy so they can get help I become annoyed. They are not taken seriously, even if the men do like checking out their bodies or getting an ego boost. That sort of ploy goes against everything women have worked to gain over the last 40 years or so, and it sends the message that we are not competent, thus must need help.