What is this indicative of?

[Ezra]

A lot of the descriptions concerning J/P mention to-do lists as being indicative of J over P. And spontaneity as being indicative of P over J. Fair enough. But I do neither. I don't make lists, but I make plans; all mental ones. Hence, I'm not spontaneous, and I've only written a few to-do lists down occasionally. Normally, my mentality is this: "right, this needs doing, so does this, this and this. Now I will do this first, then this, then this." Then I do it. What is this more to do with; J or P?

 

[Totenkindly]

Spontaneity isn't necessarily a J/P thing. Environment plays a large role in how this plays out in a particular life.

For example, J's instinctively do like to know what is going to happen next, but if they're brought up in an environment that is very free-form and yet nothing bad ever happens -- if they learn that they can trust their own instincts rather than needing to know things ahead of time -- they can end up being more flexible. Or, negatively, if a J is taught that her decisions don't matter because her plans are always overruled by larger social forces, she might just give up completely.

Likewise, P's might be taught the value of structure by good parents, and learn how to organize themselves in ways to be more effective and enjoy that. Or, negatively, P's who are constantly undermined, intruded upon, or constantly overruled when they try to act can become very demanding and require less be left to chance... so they feel they have some control over life.

In addition, MBTI type of P or type of J will impact the need and bent towards organization. TPs might organize a bit better (because of the impersonal T), FPs might organize a bit worse (because of the need to satisfy the immediate inner values). And so on.

Using myself as an example, I should be much more spontaneous than I am. I am very "open" ... but I have a very hard time just having someone change my plans or intrude at the last minute, because my boundaries were violated often when I was a child. Now sometimes I feel very inflexible, if I had my mind set on one thing and someone just changes it at the last minute; I can't flex. I also have intentions of creating to-do lists and like to develop mental ones -- I develop strategies by which to tackle my day -- but creating an actual to-do list on paper and following it is very hard for me.

I think I just mean to say that having a strategy says nothing about being J or P. SJ types do seem more likely to have a paper to-do list of concrete steps to carry out. NJ's less so, but they still do it. (I know INFJs do.)

 

[Jae Rae]

Here's the situation that just unfolded at our house:

Our son's 19th birthday is next Friday; he called last night to say he's coming in on Saturday, not Friday. My husband and I are invited to a wedding late Sunday afternoon. My husband usually works Sunday evening, but he got it off to attend the wedding. He also agreed to make 15 batches of orzo pasta for the wedding reception.

He and I were just discussing going out to dinner for our son's birthday and when I mentioned Saturday night, my husband said "I can't, I'm working that night." The wedding and the birthday are written in on the calendar, his notice about working isn't.

Now we have the ridiculous situation of having our son home but not being able to celebrate his birthday because the available times are taken up with cooking or my husband's work commitments. Somehow he forgot the birthday and the wedding are the same weekend. I'm ticked because I had no idea this was unfolding and thought the dates were in his mind. And my husband is saying "this is how I am, dates don't stick in my mind."

Somehow he agreed to celebrate our son's birthday, work, make 15 batches of a complicated dish and attend a wedding, all in one 48 hour period. I'm dizzy just thinking about it.

Thoughts?


Jae Rae

 

[Ezra]

For example, J's instinctively do like to know what is going to happen next, but if they're brought up in an environment that is very free-form and yet nothing bad ever happens -- if they learn that they can trust their own instincts rather than needing to know things ahead of time -- they can end up being more flexible. Or, negatively, if a J is taught that her decisions don't matter because her plans are always overruled by larger social forces, she might just give up completely.

Likewise, P's might be taught the value of structure by good parents, and learn how to organize themselves in ways to be more effective and enjoy that. Or, negatively, P's who are constantly undermined, intruded upon, or constantly overruled when they try to act can become very demanding and require less be left to chance... so they feel they have some control over life.

In addition, MBTI type of P or type of J will impact the need and bent towards organization. TPs might organize a bit better (because of the impersonal T), FPs might organize a bit worse (because of the need to satisfy the immediate inner values). And so on.

Using myself as an example, I should be much more spontaneous than I am. I am very "open" ... but I have a very hard time just having someone change my plans or intrude at the last minute, because my boundaries were violated often when I was a child. Now sometimes I feel very inflexible, if I had my mind set on one thing and someone just changes it at the last minute; I can't flex. I also have intentions of creating to-do lists and like to develop mental ones -- I develop strategies by which to tackle my day -- but creating an actual to-do list on paper and following it is very hard for me.

I think I just mean to say that having a strategy says nothing about being J or P. SJ types do seem more likely to have a paper to-do list of concrete steps to carry out. NJ's less so, but they still do it. (I know INFJs do.)

Two things. Firstly, if all the above is the case, what exactly is the difference between Judging and Perceiving? Secondly, I'm more inclined to believe that type is not inherent; that it is not a birth-related issue; rather, I believe it is due to a coupling of genetic inheritance and environmental impact.

Thoughts?

Just one. Based on that, I'm interested to know why your husband is a Judger and not a Perceiver.

 

[marm]

A lot of the descriptions concerning J/P mention to-do lists as being indicative of J over P. And spontaneity as being indicative of P over J. Fair enough. But I do neither. I don't make lists, but I make plans; all mental ones. Hence, I'm not spontaneous, and I've only written a few to-do lists down occasionally. Normally, my mentality is this: "right, this needs doing, so does this, this and this. Now I will do this first, then this, then this." Then I do it. What is this more to do with; J or P?

It seems to me that your plans are essentially mental lists. The major factor is if you think in terms of lists whether or not you end up writing them down.

I happen to have the book Facets of Type next to me. The entire description of Judging in this book doesn't mention anything about lists, but it does mentions planning throughout.

(The five facets are broken down into multiple sub-factors.)

J4 which is the factor 'Planful' says:
"For leisure time, I plan what I am going to do."

J8 which is the factor 'Methodical' says:
"Before I begin a project, I plan the order of tasks that need to be completed and have all the resources available when needed."

"They work best when they can plan ahead and follow the plan."

Normally, my mentality is this: "right, this needs doing, so does this, this and this. Now I will do this first, then this, then this." Then I do it.

J1 which isn't specifically related to any of the factors says:
"I remove uncertainty by making decisions."

J2 which is part of the factor 'Systematic' says:
"I reach closure so I can take action and get things done."

J7 which is the factor 'Scheduled' says:
"I use a schedule to keep life running smoothly, seeing it as a way to manage routine activities."

 

[Kiddo]

Do J's typically end their thread titles with prepositions?

 

[Jae Rae]

Just one. Based on that, I'm interested to know why your husband is a Judger and not a Perceiver.

My husband is an INTP.

Jae Rae

 

[Ezra]

My husband is an INTP.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

["?"]

A lot of the descriptions concerning J/P mention to-do lists as being indicative of J over P. And spontaneity as being indicative of P over J. Fair enough. But I do neither. I don't make lists, but I make plans; all mental ones. Hence, I'm not spontaneous, and I've only written a few to-do lists down occasionally. Normally, my mentality is this: "right, this needs doing, so does this, this and this. Now I will do this first, then this, then this." Then I do it. What is this more to do with; J or P?

The J/P dichotomy has no real bearing except to show that one extraverts with a judging perceiving function. I think she added the final dichotomy to remind readers that introverts hide their dominant function and show more or less, their auxilary function to the world. I am sure in hindsight and to preclude the confusion, she may have foregone the four letter codes (ISTP) and simply used the dominant-auxilary functions (Ti-Se) to destinguish her types.

 

[Ezra]

The J/P dichotomy has no real bearing except to show that one extraverts with a judging perceiving function.

I don't understand this.

 

["?"]

I don't understand this.

It's simple. Jung's theory was pretty much based on how the functions interact with the world and only touched on how introverted types interacted with the world. He does theorize that for balance, each person who prefers a certain dominant function will use an alternate function with a different attitude (E/I) as a back up or auxilary role.

Based on his theory, Meyers-Briggs developed the four letter codes to coincide with the functions, which subsequently became known as dichotomies. The final code simply shows whether you prefer to interact with the world with a judging or perceiving function. Nothing else. As stated before I can simply call myself Ti-Se which is Jung's theory, instead of ISTP.

I do have my thoughts on why it was necessary for Meyers-Briggs to create the codes, which has more to do with her mother's theory on how introverts interact with the world and coincides with the fact that she does not believe introverts show their real selves to the world. This allowed Socionics to muddle things because there is only an indication that Katherine Briggs met Jung briefly, but no indication that they discussed or he agreed with her theory for introverts. Thus he could easily have said that all perceiving types, whether they extravert or intorvert their dominant function would be considered Ps and all judgers, Js. In that case the Socionics theory would be correct. Nevertheless, I would still be Ti-Se in either system. As it stands the four letter dichotomies have taken on a life of their own, that when focused on moves readers further from Jung's theory.