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ESTJ

wildcat

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Ok- 1-8 are the orders in which the functions are used by the ESTJ, If the numbers are arranged in a circle, they show which of the ESTJs functions are used by which other types as thier primary functions- something like this-

circlembtithing.jpg


I colored them in color wheel colors since you were talking about a color wheel :)

Exactly!
This how they go round. Thank you whatever. Jolly good work.
Nice colours :)
 

Nocapszy

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Ok- 1-8 are the orders in which the functions are used by the ESTJ, If the numbers are arranged in a circle, they show which of the ESTJs functions are used by which other types as thier primary functions- something like this-

circlembtithing.jpg


I colored them in color wheel colors since you were talking about a color wheel :)

Is that MS paint? Wtf is that?

Wildcat... I'm still unclear... why is it you want these to be tabled?

I get the whole system; how it works - it's flawless, but why?

If you don't have a reason that 's fine. I just wanna know what it is, if there is any.
 

miss fortune

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:) it was indeed paint- which I'm completely inept at using! :laugh: that was probably obvious though :blush: I was just trying to figure out some way to depict the whole circle thing :yes:
 

wildcat

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Let's wait and find out!

EDIT:



Yep! And it may be that his interpretation is the only way to preserve opposite types in a symmetrical/parallel representation.
The way I understand it, he looked at the common interpretation of "opposite types" and tried to represent the dichotomies by their functions only. The principal difference is that he utilized all eight functions, as opposed to MBTI's four-function preference. The result is the ordering as wildcat, Xander and lastrailway are describing which managed to get it just right.

Okay, some more. So why are the function orders that way? I think it's because of how the types stand in relation to each other.
The primary contrast between the ESFJ and INTP are the Sensing/Intuition and Feeling/Thinking dichotomies. EJ and IP simply define the attitudes. This also helps maintain the "opposition" principle as in wildcat's system, we see that INTP and ESFJ oppose each other not by all of their four dimensions but their main two, NT and SF respectively, so that one is indeed the other's "shadow". This is in contrast to the conventional MBTI system because MBTI implies that each will grow into the other with time -- whereas wildcat's system is more of the opinion that there will most likely remain a degree of fundamental difference between two opposite types, and the middle ground will be dictated by the EJ/IP (dominant judging, secondary perceiving) and EP/IJ (dominant perceiving, secondary judging) dichotomies instead.

I hope this has been rather accurate, though!
Accurate.. indeed. But of course we can check..

From the INTP standpoint the primary numbers are in the range of 1-4

36/4 = 9
9 - the INTP primary number gives the ESFJ primary number

The ESFJ primary numbers are in the range of 8-5

The vertical set on the right are the SF numbers complemented by the NT numbers on the left vertical set:

9-1 = 8
9-2 = 7
9-3 = 6
9-4 = 5

SF in the order

IP 5678 EJ
gives
IJ 7856 EP

8765
7856
6587
5678

7856
8765
5678
6587

9 - number gives the NT

1234
2143
3412
4321

2143
1234
4321
3412

Quite correct.
 

wildcat

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We should find the number sets in the INTP fix (previous post)

12345678
61472583
74163852
43218765
56781234
25836147
38527316
87654321

Is that MS paint? Wtf is that?

Wildcat... I'm still unclear... why is it you want these to be tabled?

I get the whole system; how it works - it's flawless, but why?

If you don't have a reason that 's fine. I just wanna know what it is, if there is any.
Is there a reason for a tree?
Yes, in the sense that trees are plants and we should not be here without plants.

This still bears no observable relevance in regard to the MBTI which is what you started with. Have you lost your path or is it one of those paths that has to circumvent a mountain? If it is one of those then if you could tell me of the mountain I'd probably find your path or meet up with you around the other side a whole lot quicker.
If your prism is composed of the primary colours and that's it.. then you do not see the mountain.
You see, light is composed of all the colours in the prism.
 
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Nocapszy

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Is there a reason for a tree?
Yes, in the sense that trees are plants and we should not be here without plants.


If your prism is composed of the primary colours and that's it.. then you do not see the mountain.
You see, light is composed of all the colours in the prism.

Ah!
I get you now, man. Good idea.
 

MacGuffin

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Someone other than wildcat tell me the point of all this.
 

Nocapszy

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Someone other than wildcat tell me the point of all this.

If you look at my last post, the bolded part -- he made a brilliant (IMO) analogy to what he's doing. His intention is to show the relationships between types in a mathematical fashion.

In direct pertinence to the analogy, the 'prism' is only what we can see -- generally, this is just the types.

He's using numbers to represent functions, but every number is displayed so you can actually see the 'mountain' for all that it is, rather than just the 'colors.'
 

wildcat

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Seems more like another leg of the same one.
Like Mr Jekyll and Doctor Hyde, eh?

They come when you dream.
The best ideas.

Did Stevenson grasp the significance of the name Hyde?
He wrote the story immediately after the dream. With the names intact.

Hyde = a hide. To hide.

A hide is a skin.
We hide our nakedness under the skytos (skin > hide).
Ah! But this is connected with the skotos!
Greek comes in handy.
Skotos is the balmy benightedness.

SKOTOS.

European root verb SKA (to cover) is closely connected with SKU (hide).
And what is a cover? A shadow.
Originally SKA means a pull. To draw.

SKA > Irish sgath, shadow. Anglo-Saxon scaed. English shadow.
To cover is to hide.
What is skytos to skotos?
Jekyll was Hyde's cover.
 

Nocapszy

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Interesting. I'm having trouble keeping up with this. It appears to be obscurity to the original thesis. Perhaps I'm not connecting well enough.
 

wildcat

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Interesting. I'm having trouble keeping up with this. It appears to be obscurity to the original thesis. Perhaps I'm not connecting well enough.
The original thesis: subtraction.

Sub-trahere, to draw away (pull) underneath.
Tractus pp. of trahere = to draw.

The meaning of SKA > shadow, originally a draw; to draw

Obscurity > obscurus = covered over = dark = skotos
Scurus = covered > SKU = a hide
 

elfinchilde

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Interesting. I'm having trouble keeping up with this. It appears to be obscurity to the original thesis. Perhaps I'm not connecting well enough.

The original thesis: subtraction.

Sub-trahere, to draw away (pull) underneath.
Tractus pp. of trahere = to draw.

The meaning of SKA > shadow, originally a draw; to draw

Obscurity > obscurus = covered over = dark = skotos
Scurus = covered > SKU = a hide

Hi nocapszy,

it's not obscurity. Wildcat's main thesis has always been about subtraction. And how that subtraction reveals the shadow self.

The notion is not of growing into the other self, but of covering, hiding--one type hiding what's beneath. hence the things about shadow/skotos/dark selves. essentially different permutations of the same theme: one nature covers another, and that hidden nature can be derived by subtraction. (what impressed me was the use of 9 as opposed to 8.)

perhaps it's because he's more mathematical in nature? elf's visual/verbal. so if it'd help any....

the subtraction from the main numbers (as per the first posts) give the shadow self of the MBTI type appearing.

the colour wheel helps explain it non verbally/mathematically: you'll see the functions that are shadows appearing as the complementary colours on the wheel, rather than adjacent colours. So INTP's shadow is ESFJ. An INTP does not 'grow' into an ESFJ. but the shadow ESFJ appears under certain situations.

ie, when you 'subtract' from an INTP (by placing him/her in stressful situations or whatever), how that INTP would react would be as his/her opposing colour on the wheel: as an ESFJ.

wildcat, do correct me if i'm wrong yea.
 

wildcat

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Hi nocapszy,

it's not obscurity. Wildcat's main thesis has always been about subtraction. And how that subtraction reveals the shadow self.

The notion is not of growing into the other self, but of covering, hiding--one type hiding what's beneath. hence the things about shadow/skotos/dark selves. essentially different permutations of the same theme: one nature covers another, and that hidden nature can be derived by subtraction. (what impressed me was the use of 9 as opposed to 8.)

perhaps it's because he's more mathematical in nature? elf's visual/verbal. so if it'd help any....

the subtraction from the main numbers (as per the first posts) give the shadow self of the MBTI type appearing.

the colour wheel helps explain it non verbally/mathematically: you'll see the functions that are shadows appearing as the complementary colours on the wheel, rather than adjacent colours. So INTP's shadow is ESFJ. An INTP does not 'grow' into an ESFJ. but the shadow ESFJ appears under certain situations.

ie, when you 'subtract' from an INTP (by placing him/her in stressful situations or whatever), how that INTP would react would be as his/her opposing colour on the wheel: as an ESFJ.

wildcat, do correct me if i'm wrong yea.
Exactly!
To be visual is to see. To be verbal is to define what you see.
Elves can do both.

EDIT
One hundred per cent correct.
 

elfinchilde

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What you are doing so far is comparable to the answer brought by Deep Thought in "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". 42 is quite possibly the answer to life and everything but what does 42 mean? Ergo my question is what does 9 mean? What question does 36 answer? It is these questions which still bore at my brain.

because the 9 is necessary to complete the mathematical picture.

you can skip the numbers if you want (am sure wildcat wouldn't mind :D ) and understand it via words or colours. Same results. Different means, same ends.

Start to end: It's about subtraction and the consequent derivation of the shadow self.

i.e., always there is a schist in a person. mathematically, you can derive what lies on the opposing (synonym: shadow) side of that schist.
 

Nocapszy

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Yeah, I got it after he explained it. But before he posted

Wildcat said:
The original thesis: subtraction.

Sub-trahere, to draw away (pull) underneath.
Tractus pp. of trahere = to draw.

The meaning of SKA > shadow, originally a draw; to draw

Obscurity > obscurus = covered over = dark = skotos
Scurus = covered > SKU = a hide

I didn't quite see what Hyde had to do with it.

I saw how subtraction came into play.

Subtracting is connected with hiding, which when applied to MBTI is seeing the bottom, 'hidden' half. The shadows. That's why the chart was set up the way it was. With the exact mirror over on the other side.
 
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