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Free Thinkers: Heart v. Head

"?"

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Jung wasn't referring to introvert thinkers.. he was referring to the cognitive function of introverted thinking. The subjective factor to which Jung refers in your quote is the decisiveness of introverted thinking which involves drawing from one's own vault of thoughts organised into and based on preexisting principles within the mind of the introverted thinker (not IxTx... Ti), not from experience, of which observation is a subset, and of which is objective.
Don't start the circular reasoning bullshit. You said that Idealists live life subjectively. Rationals live it objectively.
 

reason

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Dana, it is okay, every logically valid derivation exemplifies circular reasoning, so your argument would be worse if it was not circular. Curious fact indeed. (edit: the curious part is the myth that circular reasoning is to be avoided. I think, perhaps, it has something to do with a desire to avoid dogmatism. The two differ quite importantly, however.)
 
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Gabe

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Nothing circular about my reasoning. You falsely interpreted your own quote of Jung, and I cleared it up for you.

Have you even read Psychological Types? every extraverted function is designated as 'objective', and every introverted function is 'subjective'. In fact, Jung makes many points earlier in his book about how he believes that earlier philosophers often conflated a judgement process with a perception process.
Anyway, you are balking because Jung's definitions differ from conventional mental pictures of objectity and subjectivity. But in the conventional vision of this, only extraverted thinking gets elevated as some form of supreme objectivity. That is how our culture sees it. I think a step toward this is a step backwards.

Yes, Jungs definition says that extraverted FEELING is objective too!

Here's something from Building Blocks of personality type about introverted thinking:
"In reporting after an excercise, the individual members of this 'type-alike' group usually elaborate on what was written on the flip chart. They want to ensure that thier own unique perspective is understood. They do not feel a need to come to consensus about what is presented on the flip chart, just to ensure that all the different ideas are presented"
 

disregard

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Have you even read Psychological Types?
No.
every extraverted function is designated as 'objective', and every introverted function is 'subjective'. In fact, Jung makes many points earlier in his book about how he believes that earlier philosophers often conflated a judgement process with a perception process.
Anyway, you are balking because Jung's definitions differ from conventional mental pictures of objectity and subjectivity. But in the conventional vision of this, only extraverted thinking gets elevated as some form of supreme objectivity. That is how our culture sees it. I think a step toward this is a step backwards.

Yes, Jungs definition says that extraverted FEELING is objective too!

Here's something from Building Blocks of personality type about introverted thinking:
"In reporting after an excercise, the individual members of this 'type-alike' group usually elaborate on what was written on the flip chart. They want to ensure that thier own unique perspective is understood. They do not feel a need to come to consensus about what is presented on the flip chart, just to ensure that all the different ideas are presented"
That is what I said in my post about introverted and extraverted thinking; that Introverted functions are subjective, and extraverted functions objective.
 

Gabe

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No.

That is what I said in my post about introverted and extraverted thinking; that Introverted functions are subjective, and extraverted functions objective.

You acknowledge this, and yet you still say that.
"Rationals live life objectively, idealists live life subjectively"

Either this is not true, or you reject Jung's definition
 

disregard

mrs
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You acknowledge this, and yet you still say that.
"Rationals live life objectively, idealists live life subjectively"

You've got it backwards. I said "Rationals live life objectively, idealists live life subjectively." Then I said that.

Jung's definition has little to do with my own theories, which I have brought into this thread.
 

Gabe

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Jung wasn't referring to introvert thinkers.. he was referring to the cognitive function of introverted thinking. The subjective factor to which Jung refers in your quote is the decisiveness of introverted thinking which involves drawing from one's own vault of thoughts organised into and based on preexisting principles within the mind of the introverted thinker (not IxTx... Ti), not from experience, of which observation is a subset, and of which is objective.

This is not true. Jung proceeds to say the exact same things about the introverted thinking type as he says about the process.
 

disregard

mrs
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I can accept that my theory isn't true. I don't read directly from Jung; instead I gather my understanding of the cognitive functions on websites devoted to the subject, through correspondence with friends that know more than I about it, and on MBTIc, which has helped the most.
 

Gabe

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I can accept that my theory isn't true. I don't read Jung, I only learn about this stuff on here.

OK then, lesson learned, right? If you want to really learn stuff, read some real material. :)
 

disregard

mrs
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Ah.. but now you are making generalisations and condescending to me.
 

Gabe

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Ah.. but now you are making generalisations and condescending to me.

I'm sorry I was so blunt about it. However, I do think it is important that people better inform themselves on this subject.
 

"?"

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Nothing circular about my reasoning. You falsely interpreted your own quote of Jung, and I cleared it up for you.
The statement came from the Chapter verbatim. However how would you know that since you admit that you have never read his theory? You cleared up nothing, but that you finally admit that you shell out your opinions as though they're facts.
 

disregard

mrs
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Dude, you've got some chip on your shoulder and I'm just gonna let you blow your hot air.
 

EsoteriEccentri

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Many of these threads you actually have to know something about to comment on, which is my problem really, but I would say no human being (even a perfectly balanced F/T one) could ever be a completely free-thinker. Humans just aren't, and never can be. Thinking restricts free thinking in many ways, but so then does feeling. As a feeler though I can say that I do not think it restricts you hugely as you make your own morals and such based on thinking. But I don't know. I see it from only one perspective. =/
 

"?"

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Dude, you've got some chip on your shoulder and I'm just gonna let you blow your hot air.
No you simply started an argument with no facts, then instead of manning up in saying "your bad", you exaserbate it by claiming that I was falsifying information. Know what the hell you are talking about especially before you start making accusations DUDE!
 

JustDave

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Many of these threads you actually have to know something about to comment on, which is my problem really, but I would say no human being (even a perfectly balanced F/T one) could ever be a completely free-thinker. Humans just aren't, and never can be. Thinking restricts free thinking in many ways, but so then does feeling. As a feeler though I can say that I do not think it restricts you hugely as you make your own morals and such based on thinking. But I don't know. I see it from only one perspective. =/

If I understand you correctly then you believe that thoughts are always effected by innate biases to some extent. That seems like a fair conclusion to me.
 

Gabe

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If I understand you correctly then you believe that thoughts are always effected by innate biases to some extent. That seems like a fair conclusion to me.

Hehe. I think it's amusing how ruffled some thinking types got about your original idea. But i should mention, I think both types are equally 'free' thinkers.
Why did you start this thread in the first place?

Hey, for Feeling you can think of St. Augustine/Goethe.
for thinking you can think of Voltaire/Locke
 

Nonsensical

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I feel as though I am a free thinker, I and I think you're right about rationals not being able to "understand" the illogic...rationals are more in the head, idealists are more in the heart..well, at least I am, I am heart over head, forever and always..because there is nothing higher then your heart
 
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