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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ni - What the hell is it?

Jaguar

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Can someone describe the Ni-Ti loop for me?
Tnx.

It's a crock of crap a depressed person came up with who saw only the negative in everything, including the butter on his english muffin in the morning.
 

Norrsken

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It's a crock of crap a depressed person came up with who saw only the negative in everything, including the butter on his english muffin in the morning.

;p
 

Mal12345

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Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar
It's a crock of crap a depressed person came up with who saw only the negative in everything, including the butter on his english muffin in the morning.

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
 

uumlau

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Dominant-Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders
ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder. These types are socially incompetent for lack of trying, because they see little to no value in significant interaction with others. They live in their own abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing themselves as Ti poses a framework for a problem and Ni shoots it down as too definitionally precise. Without any real external input, these two functions will dream up all sorts of elaborate systems and implications for them, only to repeat their own self-defeating behavior, never bothering to emphasize putting any of its intense ideas into practice. Frequent disregard for rules, laws and other forms of behavioral standards is common, as no function provides any significant sense of external influence. If Se/Fe were doing its job, the user would recognize the value of connecting with others and of paying attention to their needs, preferences, habits and appearances.

The fun of the internet is that any kid can come up with a theory, post it as if it were fact without any sort of references or experience behind it, and then many years later it can be cited as being authoritative. It's posts like the one you just quoted that make a lot of people very skeptical of function theory overall. The connections being drawn between functions and behavior here don't really exist.
 

Mal12345

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The fun of the internet is that any kid can come up with a theory, post it as if it were fact without any sort of references or experience behind it, and then many years later it can be cited as being authoritative. It's posts like the one you just quoted that make a lot of people very skeptical of function theory overall. The connections being drawn between functions and behavior here don't really exist.

Is there such a thing as a dom-tert loop?
 

uumlau

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Is there such a thing as a dom-tert loop?

I personally regard it as a post hoc ergo propter hoc description of something that's already well understood in other terms. Functions aren't things in your head that do things and interact with each other. They're patterns, part of a typology. So if you want to talk about what Ni is, or what an Ni dom is like, you can actually have a coherent conversation on that level. But if you want to talk how Ni interacts with Fi or Ti and how it can be healthy or unhealthy, you're starting to mix psychology (mental health) with function theory and MBTI, and neither of these typologies describes neuroses very well. There is something to be said for mapping Enneagram to mental health, and the Riso-Hudson books describe the various levels of integration in a way that coheres remarkably closely to the DSM.
 

Forever

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How is this thread still alive lol, is apparently the repetition of mostly the same answer not enough for you all lol?
 

Mal12345

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I personally regard it as a post hoc ergo propter hoc description of something that's already well understood in other terms. Functions aren't things in your head that do things and interact with each other. They're patterns, part of a typology. So if you want to talk about what Ni is, or what an Ni dom is like, you can actually have a coherent conversation on that level. But if you want to talk how Ni interacts with Fi or Ti and how it can be healthy or unhealthy, you're starting to mix psychology (mental health) with function theory and MBTI, and neither of these typologies describes neuroses very well. There is something to be said for mapping Enneagram to mental health, and the Riso-Hudson books describe the various levels of integration in a way that coheres remarkably closely to the DSM.

So if someone asks about a dom-tert loop such as the Ni-Ti loop, you're response would always be skeptical about the entire idea?
 

Mal12345

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That's why this forum lacks popularity. People come here with questions. They are told the question is invalid. They go elsewhere for the answers.
 

cascadeco

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That's why this forum lacks popularity. People come here with questions. They are told the question is invalid. They go elsewhere for the answers.

That's their prerogative. imo there are plenty of people on the forum who believe very much in function theory, as well as those who don't. Do you propose that those who don't, just not post an alternative or challenge to the theory at all? My own beef with all of it is that to one of [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] 's points, in the end it IS simply theory. Does it have any basis in reality at all? If there's something more reasonable in reality to explain the same thing, wouldn't it be better to look at that too? And also to his point, the internet and social media is filled with a million people posting their own opinions and editorials and theoretical frameworks as facts, with millions of people watching and reading. Isn't some healthy skepticism...healthy?
 

Mal12345

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That's their prerogative. imo there are plenty of people on the forum who believe very much in function theory, as well as those who don't. Do you propose that those who don't, just not post an alternative or challenge to the theory at all? My own beef with all of it is that to one of [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] 's points, in the end it IS simply theory. Does it have any basis in reality at all? If there's something more reasonable in reality to explain the same thing, wouldn't it be better to look at that too? And also to his point, the internet and social media is filled with a million people posting their own opinions and editorials and theoretical frameworks as facts, with millions of people watching and reading. Isn't some healthy skepticism...healthy?

And healthy skepticism toward the healthy skepticism.

Here is one person's experience with the Ni-Ti loop:

INFJ: the satanic Ni-Ti loop & escaping its... : too absent-spirited to count

"INFJs in a loop are withdrawn and shut people out. When I’ve looped in the past, I completely cut off a close friend who was nothing but wonderful to me, simply because I was busy & our friendship was a lot of work. Not your stereotypical INFJ saint, eh? And the worst part is that toxic Ti’s logic will fool you. It’s hard to get out of a loop because Ti makes the looping make 1000% logical sense. You’ll say to yourself, “Hey, ignoring this person isn’t awful of me, even though she’s going through a lot & needs my friendship. This is just what makes sense. I have to look out for myself.” Wrong! You’re just acting like an asshole. I promise you, I could have handled my shit and also have been a good friend. Ti was just a lot more convenient for me to use in that situation. That’s what I mean by selfishness.

So: You lost your Fe, and Ti’s making all of your decisions, and you don’t like it. You feel trapped in your mind, and often disconnected from your emotions. Likely you feel numb and detached. So what do you do?"
 

Mal12345

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The answer/theory at that page is very similar to SW's theory. Do you suppose they copied each other's ideas? Did they develop their ideas independently? If enough people repeat the same idea, instead of just one "kid" making up a theory that became "authoritative over time," does it become true?
 

Mal12345

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Tertiary Temptation in INFJ | Stellar Maze
And again...
"So, for an INFJ, which is using introverted intuition as a dominant function and extraverted feeling as an auxiliary function, there is a temptation in the introverted thinking tertiary function for them to bypass their auxiliary function in order to stay locked into introversion.

You should develop the dominant and auxiliary functions of your type before you focus on any of the other functions. The tertiary is tricky and it is best to exclude serious activities or professions related to it as a rule. The tertiary is like the hobbyist function, the amateur, it is what you like to do to stimulate yourself and to grow as a person."

Looks like the same idea as SW's. Are they all on the wrong track?
 

Jaguar

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Personality Type Paradoxes - An I/ENFP example

These natural changes and growth in adults account for the apparent paradoxes we sometimes observe in people of all types. Development of the NeTe face of INFPs accounts for the "coolness" and "detachment" we sometimes observe in them.

INFP mid-life changes, such as an increasing desire to organize and take charge of one's life or to stop being used as a doormat by others, are consistent with this developing outer NT. Some INFPs have become quite proficient in masking their "true feelings" with their NT face. This same facility in their ENFP cousins has them able to mimic ENTJ stereotypical behavior. They can assume control, take charge of a situation, make the hard decisions, and move on with their job. They can have masterly control over lawyer-speak, slicing careful nuances in meaning and logic. Even though they prefer Feeling over Thinking, they can become and are competent attorneys.The NeTe face on ENFPs and INFPs also explains why these two types are among the top four types having home pages on the Internet (From data on Doug Ingram's Personality Index page. The other two top four types are INTJ and INTP). While NFPs are people-oriented folks, many are drawn to latest technology and technological gadgetry of all sorts - which I ascribe to their extraverted NT face.

Full article here:

Personality Type Development | Myers Briggs

The ENFP isn't in a satanic Ne-Te loop, but the person who suggests they are may need to see a psychiatrist.
 

Mal12345

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What is the Ni-Ti loop? Ni-Fi? - Confessions of a Myers Briggs-aholic
Again...
"They may become an exaggerated version of themselves, overwhelmingly outgoing or extremely withdrawn. They will also seem to miss a huge part of their normal, healthy personality; whatever behavior or thought processes their auxiliary function would normally govern. However, these differ for each type depending on the function being skipped."

So far anyway, nobody is contradicting SW's theory.

It's necessary to also mention, with regard to the INFJ in particular, that this type is not automatically social or sociable simply because Fe is the auxiliary function. With Ni as the dominant function, Fe becomes a very broadly - applied or generalized - theory of social values.

If the INFJ is not in a loop, then the theory will be applied, not just generalized. The INFJ will be actively engaged in trying to change the world in accordance with a vision. Examples of that (not speaking for any particular INFJ) would be fighting for human rights on a global scale and the transforming of society in accordance with a personal vision of a better world. Tertiary Ti, although less developed, attempts to add a logical backdrop in the form of philosophy or rationally persuasive argument (a treatise, for instance).

If the INFJ loses hope and confidence that the vision will be realized, then withdrawal and a sense of hopelessness will be the result. I'm not agreeing with SW that this would result in a Schizoidal personality or any personality disorder at all. But depression is a given.
 
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