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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ni - What the hell is it?

Igxfl

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Recognizing concepts from past experience and swimming in the gists of memories sound like classic Si descriptions.
 

Forever

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Recognizing concepts from past experience and swimming in the gists of memories sound like classic Si descriptions.
Sounds like it. Gee igxfl having never read anything about Ni or Si in my entire life and never having commented on it either. I'm going to pat you on the back good job. Keep it up. :laugh:

I will
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:hug::hug:
 

uumlau

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You have no idea what you're messing with. There is a very significant difference. Apparently your ignorant knowledge make you equate past with Si.

Both use the past but in entirely different ways.

I think Lenore Thomson's writings have some relevance here. I don't entirely subscribe to her version of the functions (I prefer Nardi for his having done empirical explorations of the functions), but she draws several parallels between Si and Ni, even as she contrasts the two.

Lenore Thomson's Introverted Intuition

“Because we usually associate Intuition with ‘feelings’ and hunches, the conceptual nature of Introverted Intuition may be difficult to appreciate. Like its Extraverted counterpart, Introverted Intuition is a Perceiving function, but it’s also a left-brain function. The left-brain won’t focus on many things at once. It depends on words and signs to make outward experience predictable and orderly” (223).

“This is most clear in the areas governed by Extraverted Thinking and Extraverted Feeling, the left-brained Judgment functions. ETJs and EFJs, whose Judging skills are dominant, wield language like a knife, separating meaningful sense impressions from all the nameless experiential stuff that surrounds it. Such types may be hard pressed to grant the reality of impressions that can’t be explained or talked about” (223).

“The left-brain Perceiving functions are different. Introverted Sensation and Introverted Intuition make us aware of all our sensory impressions, notwithstanding prevailing categories of knowledge. In consequence, ISJs and INJs tend to have interests and priorities that strike others as unpredictable or esoteric” (224).”

“On the other hand, as left-brain types, ISJs and INJs also need conceptual control over their outer world. For this reason, both types have a strong investment in the structure of public information. ISJs are concerned with making that structure secure, whereas INJs are interested in changing or improving it” (224).

“For example, at a recent board meeting, an ISTJ accountant told the group that he enjoyed recording the organization’s income and expenditures, but he didn’t want to be involved with the money itself—counting it, bringing it to the bank, and so forth. This is a classic Introverted Sensing approach. Material reality is just so much raw experience. It has to be controlled with a stable mental framework” (225).

“Introverted Intuition moves us in the opposite direction. It tells us that changing our frame of mind can change the world. For example, a recent article advises the parents of a fussy or demanding baby not to describe the fact as difficult but to recognize that such children have vivid, strong, and rich personalities. This is how Introverted Intuition works. The material facts remain the same, but we organize them in a new conceptual pattern that changes their meaning and gives us new options for behavior” (224).

In general, her classification of the sensing functions is that they're ALL about sensing and the senses, but each one processes sensing in a different way. Si tends to organize and classify sensations, while Ni strives to "interpret" the sensations to learn what they "really mean".

An ISTJ friend of mine totally keeps track of the ENSO (the El Nino Southern Oscillation) and can tell you in exquisite detail what the climate is going to be like over the next few months. This would seem to be entirely predictive, but really it's just organization of facts. He doesn't "interpret" the ENSO, the interpretation is already provided based on past data. Si predicts the future mostly by assuming that the future will work pretty much like the past.

Ni doesn't do that. Instead, what Ni is adept at doing is taking in brand new information that no one has analyzed before, figure out what it means, and make predictions that would appear to have no basis in reality. Making "predictions" based on known data (like El Nino oscillations) is boring to Ni types such as INTJs, though the fact that the link exists is fascinating. Figuring out a completely new problem is where Ni types are at home.

The reason that Ni types are good at that is that they register patterns that can't easily be put into words. It's why the patterns seem vague and undefined. But really, it's no more vague or undefined than a dance or the taste of a pear: it just can't be put into words AND it isn't as concrete as a dance or a pear. Ni thinking tends to be in terms of these patterns, the ability to "just look at a problem" and "see" what is "really" going on underneath the hood. Just as you can taste a pear blindfolded and accurately guess that it is a pear, an Ni type can take in a new problem and accurately see possible solutions to it.
 

Dreamer

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I think Lenore Thomson's writings have some relevance here. I don't entirely subscribe to her version of the functions (I prefer Nardi for his having done empirical explorations of the functions), but she draws several parallels between Si and Ni, even as she contrasts the two.

Lenore Thomson's Introverted Intuition



In general, her classification of the sensing functions is that they're ALL about sensing and the senses, but each one processes sensing in a different way. Si tends to organize and classify sensations, while Ni strives to "interpret" the sensations to learn what they "really mean".

An ISTJ friend of mine totally keeps track of the ENSO (the El Nino Southern Oscillation) and can tell you in exquisite detail what the climate is going to be like over the next few months. This would seem to be entirely predictive, but really it's just organization of facts. He doesn't "interpret" the ENSO, the interpretation is already provided based on past data. Si predicts the future mostly by assuming that the future will work pretty much like the past.

Ni doesn't do that. Instead, what Ni is adept at doing is taking in brand new information that no one has analyzed before, figure out what it means, and make predictions that would appear to have no basis in reality. Making "predictions" based on known data (like El Nino oscillations) is boring to Ni types such as INTJs, though the fact that the link exists is fascinating. Figuring out a completely new problem is where Ni types are at home.

The reason that Ni types are good at that is that they register patterns that can't easily be put into words. It's why the patterns seem vague and undefined. But really, it's no more vague or undefined than a dance or the taste of a pear: it just can't be put into words AND it isn't as concrete as a dance or a pear. Ni thinking tends to be in terms of these patterns, the ability to "just look at a problem" and "see" what is "really" going on underneath the hood. Just as you can taste a pear blindfolded and accurately guess that it is a pear, an Ni type can take in a new problem and accurately see possible solutions to it.

Personally I think making function comparisons like this help me to interpret and understand them better much more than say, the inteoverted/extroverted versions of each function. To me, Fi and Ti share much more in common than Fi and Fe, therefore, as long as you use one of them, which everyone does, you could better understand the other introverted judging function, or extroverted, you get my point. At least, that's how I best understand concepts is finding that correlation and relationship between things, then applying that same underlying relationship to those new concepts.

I loved reading this post! I already had a firm grasp of Ni and Si, but it was fun to read nonetheless.
 

VagrantFarce

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In general, her classification of the sensing functions is that they're ALL about sensing and the senses, but each one processes sensing in a different way. Si tends to organize and classify sensations, while Ni strives to "interpret" the sensations to learn what they "really mean".

Forgive me for being pedantic, but it's the judgement functions that organise and classify, not the perceiving functions. Si "just perceives", in the same way Se, Ne & Ni "just perceive".

Si, pure and simply, is to understand "sensation" as being wholly subjective. "Physicality" is not something you apprehend as something you "submit" yourself to, or how you establish a connection with the world around you - it has the opposite effect of severing that connection. To "sense" the world, in this sense, is to ground yourself in your own experience. This differs greatly from Se, which understands sensation and physicality to be wholly objective, and fundamentally about "connecting" with the world around you - there's a force and reactivity present in Se that Si lacks. Those that prefer Si, because of this, comes across as very grounded, accommodating, and tough to lead by the nose.

I would also posit that Si has nothing to do with perceiving "the future" - it's important to note that Si concerns itself purely and simply with "what is". It just so happens that "what is" is fundamentally attached to the subject, and not the object.
 

Eric B

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Forgive me for being pedantic, but it's the judgement functions that organise and classify, not the perceiving functions. Si "just perceives", in the same way Se, Ne & Ni "just perceive".

Si, pure and simply, is to understand "sensation" as being wholly subjective. "Physicality" is not something you apprehend as something you "submit" yourself to, or how you establish a connection with the world around you - it has the opposite effect of severing that connection. To "sense" the world, in this sense, is to ground yourself in your own experience. This differs greatly from Se, which understands sensation and physicality to be wholly objective, and fundamentally about "connecting" with the world around you - there's a force and reactivity present in Se that Si lacks. Those that prefer Si, because of this, comes across as very grounded, accommodating, and tough to lead by the nose.

I would also posit that Si has nothing to do with perceiving "the future" - it's important to note that Si concerns itself purely and simply with "what is". It just so happens that "what is" is fundamentally attached to the subject, and not the object.

That "organize and classify" initially concerned me as well, but Lenore likely understands this in terms of "undifferentiated functions". For every bit of data, all functional products are there, but the function we consider being "used" is simply the products that have been abstracted (set apart) in consciousness. And particularly for Pi (left brain "J" perspectives), the "organizing and classifying" then would be the associated Je function in the background working with Si or Ni.

Also, It's not really about Si "perceiving" the future; the emphasis was "assuming that the future will work pretty much like the past", so it's still the past being perceived, and then generalized to the future.

(I also think "In general, her classification of the sensing functions is that they're ALL about sensing and the senses", was meant "perceiving" functions).

You can also see the tandems in that Ne deals with external patterns stored in memory (working with Si), while Ni "taking in brand new information" is then working with Se.
 

Serendipity

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Anyhow, since autistic brains are unable to store information in a clear structure, thus causing it to reinterpret all data over and over

Serendipity: wouldn't this be very close to the Ni state
Serendipity: ?

Serendipity: Where as Ni is an intuitive process that doesn't store data but reinterprets as it goes?
Serendipity: Thus autistic persons could exhibit extreme Si-tendencies but actually may be part of the Ni-core
Serendipity: Because the wish for strict rigid structures in the external environment is seemingly Si-typic but as
Serendipity: autists have trouble because it is reinterpreted over and over
Serendipity: it is a safe-haven for a Ni-inclined character.
Serendipity: Forcing a Si structure on the outside world instead of the internal.

Thoughts?
 

Norrsken

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Cannot explain myself too well, but for me, I think Ni-doms are the type who love to talk about things inside the box, and this manifests to something like talking about philosophy.
Ne-doms think outside of the box, and this manifests to creative problem solving.


That's just one example. *hides*
 

ZNP-TBA

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Cannot explain myself too well, but for me, I think Ni-doms are the type who love to talk about things inside the box, and this manifests to something like talking about philosophy.
Ne-doms think outside of the box, and this manifests to creative problem solving.


That's just one example. *hides*

I like this analogy. If Ni's are still 'in the box' then they desire to transcend the box not just thinking about what's in the box but what the meaning of the box is itself and maybe why it's even there or recognized as a box?

Ne just gets bored with the box and go somewhere else. :shrug:
 

Mal12345

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Ni is in use when I subsume a concrete fact under a concept.
Ne is in use when I create the concept.
 

Mal12345

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Ni is in use during the recognition of some thing or event as related to a known concept, one that already exists in the mind. For example, if I read about the concept of Borderline Personality Disorder, and then experienced an event which I recognized as an example of BPD, then my mind has subsumed that event beneath the concept of BPD. It occurs in my mind as a discovery, although it's not a new discovery per se since BPD is already known. I think to myself, "A-ha! That's an example of BPD." As such, it forces its Ni truth on the mind without any need of proof as an effect of cognitive integration. That doesn't mean it is actually true, perhaps it is and perhaps it isn't. It just feels true, and this feeling of integration poses itself to consciousness as truth.

A real example of this comes from an INTJ (mormon) friend of mine. He related to me an experience he had in a college genetics class (he was studying to be a veterinarian). While he was studying some genetics, a suddenly realization came upon him like the proverbial light-bulb over the head: God IS real! Genetics proves it! He did not say how genetics proves it, but it had something to do with the idea that only God could have made the gene. Although my Ti says his experience of truth in this case was non-objective, it was real, therefore objective to him, and that's what counts to him. An integrative moment is, to him or to any Ni-dom, equivalent to an objective proof, as infallible as instinct.

What distinguishes this from Si is the conceptualization behind the event. Si is non-conceptual. You will find with Si a worship or adoration of symbols. But God is an idea. God presumably falls under the concept of reality. But God was a known idea or entity already, and many people already believe and take it for granted, so nothing new has been discovered beyond a strong feeling of truth.

Ne takes the opposite approach. It does not subsume new instances under a concept, it creates the concept based on a variety of instances. Its approach to knowledge is not one of absolute conceptual Truth, as with Ni, but with coming closer to the Truth. There are never enough facts to acquire Truth, so the best Ne can hope for is to keep trying. It's approach to Truth is also integrative (as with Ni), but only in the external sense of data-gathering and combining until a theory is arrived at. Ne's approach is not internal (except to the extent which it makes use of logic or subjective values, as with Ti and Fi), and is more playful than Ni. Even concepts such as God are just things to play with in order to invent fresh ideas and theories. It may take a known object and make something new out of it as in the inventive process via many experiments.
 
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Mal12345

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Ni and Ne learning difference:

Ni gathers facts and data, subsumes them under a known concept.
Ne learns using the jigsaw puzzle method. All the pieces are fit together to form a pattern. Unlike a jigsaw puzzle, some of the pieces have to be discovered.
 

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Ni and Ne learning difference:

Ni gathers facts and data, subsumes them under a known concept.
Ne learns using the jigsaw puzzle method. All the pieces are fit together to form a pattern. Unlike a jigsaw puzzle, some of the pieces have to be discovered.

Well actually it's Se that gathers the data. Ni then takes the information and synthesizes it into a whole.
Ne takes the object and reorganizes it in such a way to be influenced from Si's Impressionism.
 

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Cannot explain myself too well, but for me, I think Ni-doms are the type who love to talk about things inside the box, and this manifests to something like talking about philosophy.
Ne-doms think outside of the box, and this manifests to creative problem solving.


That's just one example. *hides*

Ni doesn't speak inside the box, it speaks of the box. It is metathinking.

Everyone thinks and sees inside the box anyway.
 

Mal12345

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Well actually it's Se that gathers the data. Ni then takes the information and synthesizes it into a whole.
Ne takes the object and reorganizes it in such a way to be influenced from Si's Impressionism.

Ni is a perceiving function. Facts and data are objects of perception. And it doesn't synthesize anything, it subsumes information under a concept.
 

Annaifiwas

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Introverted intuition forms a framework of how the world works based on thorough, abstract analysis of past and current events. It aims to identify the ‘essence’ of ideas, theories, people and situations in order to fit them into a larger schema. Introverted intuition is a forward thinking function that seeks to identify the optimal or most likely outcome of future events.

People who lead with introverted intuition are usually intense, focused and highly perceptive of inconsistencies that arise in their external environment. They enjoy riddles, puzzles and wordplay. They often experience ‘hunches’ or ‘aha’ moments that they may identify as epiphanies. Their intense foresight is a product of their future-oriented introverted intuition subtly pairing with their inferior extroverted sensing.

Source: If You’re Confused About Your Myers-Briggs Personality Type, Read This: An Intro To Cognitive Functions | Thought Catalog
 

Norrsken

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Can someone describe the Ni-Ti loop for me?
Tnx.
 

Mal12345

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Can someone describe the Ni-Ti loop for me?
Tnx.

Dominant-Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders
ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder. These types are socially incompetent for lack of trying, because they see little to no value in significant interaction with others. They live in their own abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing themselves as Ti poses a framework for a problem and Ni shoots it down as too definitionally precise. Without any real external input, these two functions will dream up all sorts of elaborate systems and implications for them, only to repeat their own self-defeating behavior, never bothering to emphasize putting any of its intense ideas into practice. Frequent disregard for rules, laws and other forms of behavioral standards is common, as no function provides any significant sense of external influence. If Se/Fe were doing its job, the user would recognize the value of connecting with others and of paying attention to their needs, preferences, habits and appearances.
 
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