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  1. #921
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    I think i have Ni

    Is Ni like this:
    Like for example, people easily judge someone by his looks or actions, and then me:

    I assume that there's a reason why that person behaves that way. And not everything what it seems is real.

  2. #922
    Member Straylight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Of all the functions, this is probably the hardest to understand what it means.

    I mean you read a description and it's like "Knowing thins instinctively" and "Experiencing Premonitions" and it's just like WTF? It's hardly an explanation of how a mental function works. Does anyone have a better explanation? I can almost never tell definitively in characters if what they are using is Ne or Ni, since both are abstract idea generators and pattern connectors, supposedly.
    According to the theory,

    Whenever your brain interprets information it can be classified into two categories: the objective quantifiable properties of it and the subjective qualities of it. This correlates with the extraverted and introverted attitudes described by Jung.

    Intuition is (according to Jung) our ability to make predictions that are not based on reason, but rather, on hunches. "Hunches" is really the best word to use here, because everyone knows what it is like to have a hunch, a guess at something, before you have really thought it through.

    When your hunches are triggered and depend upon the quantifiable properties of actual observable things (objects, places, people, events, ideas, etc), then they are extraverted. For example, while observing a group of people having a discussion, you may begin to notice subtle patterns in their mannerisms that seem to indicate to you what their individual personalities might be, but you aren't sure why they indicate this, you have only the "gist" of it in your head, and would need to further develop the insight into a real notion that you could then explain to someone.

    When your hunches are triggered and depend upon the subjective qualities of things ("qualities" are subjective because they depend upon your own individual biases as a person, which are disturbed and evoked by their contact with other things), then they are introverted. For example, while observing the same group of people having a discussion, the Ni-type's intuition selectively chooses and emphasizes the aspects of that discussion that reinforce the particular world-view of the Ni-type. If he is a cynic, then he has a cynical insight. If he is an optimist, he has an optimistic insight. The intuition is subjective because it carries a bias.

    In the case of the INTJ-Ni/Te, those insights are either voiced/expressed (extraverted thinking) in the form of an opinion/decision about them, if they can be supported by facts and evidence. If they cannot, then they won't be voiced and remain personal/private (introverted intuition), giving the appearance of swift decisiveness and confidence.

    In the case of the INTP-Ti/Ne, the insights are openly discussed as possibilities rather than opinions or decisions (extraverted intuition), while the personal opinion and final decision regarding the information is kept private (introverted thinking) because of it's subjective nature, giving the appearance of indecisiveness and lack of confidence.
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.

  3. #923
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    Just came up with this way to express all four perception attitudes, for the purpose of continuing to come up witha better way to understand/explain Ni, in comparison with the others.

    Basically, it starts by thinking of S as dealing with space, and N with time (as Jung even said):
    S/N as Space/Time Awareness

    N overall deals with patterns that can be abstracted from one situation to give meaning to another. This occurs through time (while S is about what's here and now or "static" whether experienced in the immediate environment through the three dimensions of space, or filtered through individual memory).

    So Ne then involves what you experience when following the chain of occurrences when looking through the dimension of time. Its inferences occur along this time line (in the environment). Hence, what "could" happen. Also, following past patterns, and continuing their trajectories to get a sense of what will happen. (Of course, things can change, and so Ne remains "open").

    So then Ni also looks at the dimension of time, but its inferences do not come from the timeline, but rather from the individual, which is the unconscious. This is the domain of the "archetypal" (images that are collective, and not tied directly to our external experience), and what do we often describe archetypal images as? "Timeless"! (meaning pervasive through time; not on our individual timeline of experience).

    This corresponds to the description once given to me, that Ne looks "in terms of" a pattern, while Ni looks "outside the pattern".
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  4. #924
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    I think Ni is important in predicting the future. Because in my real life, noone seems to have Ni for fucking real. They suck. (management shit. They should suppose to know what to do but failed on that part.)

  5. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by kotoshinohaisha View Post
    I think Ni is important in predicting the future. Because in my real life, noone seems to have Ni for fucking real. They suck. (management shit. They should suppose to know what to do but failed on that part.)
    Ni is almost certainly important in predicting the future. You may wish to rent or purchase a copy of Gifts Differing by Isabel Myers-Briggs, it goes really in-depth into it. It's also pretty much the cornerstone of MBTI, and the next best thing to reading the MBTI Manual Third Edition textbook published by CPP (I don't recommend the MBTI Manual unless you have a very good understanding of the statistical methods used in scientific research and/or are a psychology major with an academic interest in this stuff).
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.
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  6. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Just came up with this way to express all four perception attitudes, for the purpose of continuing to come up witha better way to understand/explain Ni, in comparison with the others.

    Basically, it starts by thinking of S as dealing with space, and N with time (as Jung even said):
    S/N as Space/Time Awareness

    N overall deals with patterns that can be abstracted from one situation to give meaning to another. This occurs through time (while S is about what's here and now or "static" whether experienced in the immediate environment through the three dimensions of space, or filtered through individual memory).

    So Ne then involves what you experience when following the chain of occurrences when looking through the dimension of time. Its inferences occur along this time line (in the environment). Hence, what "could" happen. Also, following past patterns, and continuing their trajectories to get a sense of what will happen. (Of course, things can change, and so Ne remains "open").

    So then Ni also looks at the dimension of time, but its inferences do not come from the timeline, but rather from the individual, which is the unconscious. This is the domain of the "archetypal" (images that are collective, and not tied directly to our external experience), and what do we often describe archetypal images as? "Timeless"! (meaning pervasive through time; not on our individual timeline of experience).

    This corresponds to the description once given to me, that Ne looks "in terms of" a pattern, while Ni looks "outside the pattern".
    First, can I just say I'm glad to see you're still active and continuing your research. I've always found your articles and ideas really insightful. Thank you.

    What you are indicating here reminded me of Jung's description of Ni in Psychological Types when he gives a comparison to Si for contrast:

    ...Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation.
    After researching what he means by "innervation" I understand that he is saying, essentially, that:

    (a) something disturbs the contents of the unconscious of the person
    (b) which is perceived by the person in two ways:
    (c1) one being a sensation which constitutes the subjective quality of the contents (the descriptive words attached to the contents)
    (c2) and the other is the "image" of the contents which constitutes the intuition (the literal quantitative contents themselves, analogous to Se perceiving the quantitative "stuff" present in the outer world).

    To further expand upon (c2), you might see what I mean by "quantitative stuff present in the outer world" being analogous to the way Ni interprets inner images if you recall Jung again in the same description of Ni,

    ... Intuition, in the introverted attitude, is directed upon the inner object, a term we might justly apply to the elements of the unconscious. For the relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, although theirs is a psychological and not a physical reality. Inner objects appear to the intuitive perception as subjective images of things, which, though not met with in external experience, really determine the contents of the unconscious, i.e. the collective unconscious, in the last resort. Naturally, in their per se character, these contents are, not accessible to experience, a quality which they have in common with the outer object. For just as outer objects correspond only relatively with our perceptions of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner object are also relative; products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function.
    I hope this makes sense.

    Also, your categorization of S = space and N = time seems like a very good way to put it. Putting it that way is congruent with both the general Socionics description of the two functions, as well as my vague recollection of something I read in Jung's Tarkovsky Lectures on Analytical Psychology in London when he says as much by defining sensation as "it exists", thinking as "what is it", intuition as "where is it going/where did it come from", and feeling as "what is its value".
    Formerly known as "Abraxas" on Personality Cafe, now retired.
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  7. #927
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    Wasn't aware of that for Socionics.

    Jung's language is so dense with some of those words he uses, that's why it takes so long to understand and there's such a need to reframe it in simpler ways.
    So yes the clue was in the familiar “It exists”, “where it comes from; where it's heading”, which I discuss here S/N as Space/Time Awareness and was supposed to include the link, abvoe, but forgot, in nhe rush, last night.

    What throws one off is the “it exists/[is]”, which may make you think of both space and time, but S covers your awareness of “what is” in space, regardless of how long it lasts, what it does, or where it came from or is heading, in time, which is what makes up the “patterns” of N awareness.
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  8. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straylight View Post
    Ni is almost certainly important in predicting the future. You may wish to rent or purchase a copy of Gifts Differing by Isabel Myers-Briggs, it goes really in-depth into it. It's also pretty much the cornerstone of MBTI, and the next best thing to reading the MBTI Manual Third Edition textbook published by CPP (I don't recommend the MBTI Manual unless you have a very good understanding of the statistical methods used in scientific research and/or are a psychology major with an academic interest in this stuff).
    Are fortune tellers infj?

  9. #929
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    It's all in your mind

  10. #930
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    Lenore had defined Ni in the book (Personality Type: An Owner's Manual p223) as "liberate our sense impressions from their larger context, thereby creating more options for perception itself", which might be hard for non-Ni types to really grasp.
    The timeline idea explains it. The "larger context" is what occurs in the time dimension, but the "unconscious impressions" are from outside of the time dimension, and so you can get more kinds of interpretations than what were available in the temporal environment.
    The example given is raising the question in one's mind of the possible reasons a suntan is valued by people today, when the original circumstances that gave it its meaning have changed. Again, we see the time element of this, and the pondering steps outside of this timeline to raise the question of why it's still considered attractive.

    Likewise, "perspectives" is the single word nickname Personality Hacker gives to Ni, and they describe it as "not married to its own perspective", and "watching your mind form patterns", and "eventually, over time you're going to get the 'pattern of the pattern'; you're going to understand how brains form patterns" [hence, "meta-awareness"], and so when listening to another person they can shift out of their own perspective and into the other person's perspective and get a sense of what's going on with them, and be able to guess "I bet this is the pattern created in the other person's mind", so it looks like reading their mind and tell what they're thinking.

    Looking at the temporal patterns limits us to what we can see from them, where we can't see the future, and so the possibilities int he environment remain "open". A lot of different things "could" happen. Looking outside the pattern is "open" in an internal sense, as you don;t have to rely on patterns of experience. However, it ends up creating less "open" environmental possibilities, and also working with extraverted judgment, which makes the observations and solutions more "closed".
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