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  1. #911
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    I've heard this:
    When you ask an "absurd" question to a Ne dom, he will answer immediately, going with the flow of absurdity.
    The Ni dom will ask: "What do you mean? What is the point?" and be stuck without an answer until it all make enough sense to elaborate one.
    Does it make sense to you?
    Also, do you think this is also valid, say for a Fi-Ne?

  2. #912

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    I do think that "marketing" presentations of functions are mostly for selling MBTI product and so on. They are like astrology in a way.
    Why do I say so ? Because COGNITION and BEHAVIOUR are correlated but not essentially the same. We cannot say they intersect because they define different spaces.

    What is Ni ? I think it is quite easy to explain while coming back to their essential essence.
    A function is conceptually a "streaming" box transforming input A into input B. Its persona also includes nature of input and output, like :

    f : x from set S1 -> Q(x) in set S2

    S1 and S2 are basically data. S1 and S2 can belong to either I or E. Let's use the MBTI symbolic : i(ntroverted) and e(extroverted). Q is the concept of function (N, T, S, F).
    If S1 is E, then Q persona is Qi (ok bad choice of letter...), else it is Qe extroversion means direction toward self...).

    But wait...! Can data comes from the VOID ? No. That means that Qe either requires a Z function so that QoZ is defined from E to E or E to I or to be "volatile" (coming inside but quitting immediately).
    The first case is Q as a JUDGING function. A judging function is always FED by data (no decision comes from void, it is against common sense).
    The second case is Q as a PERCEIVING function. A perceiving function cannot be composed because by nature it uses raw external data. An EXTROVERTED perception is looping from exterior to exterior, it is a "volatile" thing. (Se is about living the moment then discard it, same stands for Ne : exhibits potentiality of bounds or directions contextually at a moment t).
    On the other hand, an INTROVERTED perception is directed toward INNER STORAGE. It requires an INTERPRETATION to fit self. That is why Ni and Si are SLOWER, because they need to translate external things to inner things (like a compiler will turn Java user code to Java bytecode).

    So why this disgression ? To understand that Ni is not a "magical thing" which works from the void. It actually STORES data before participating to whole functional stack.
    I would say that Ni is very passive and discrete in this process, it is more like casual state of mind. It is not related to complicated things and it might be better triggered while WATCHING or READING FIGURATIVE or SURREALIST (depending on personnal big type) stuff (like refined tales and so on). I, as a Ni-dom (I am know sure of it) tend to watch figurative (with a convergent strong sense of DIRECTION and MEANING) very passively and tries to capture the whole point of it (by point, I mean its kind of color). This capture seems to resonnate in me in a very self-centered way.

    After this, Ni is used internally to exhibit potential edge to a JUDGING function. A introverted, Ni has one reference point and tends to produce only one internal hint. Because this is the role of Ni : giving a hint. I see it trough classical logic : a hint is an overview on the result but a judging function must figure it out.
    Ni might be wrong in fact as self-centered hint provider. It is silent because intuition deals with unconscious. Unconsious is in fact process that has been acquired so that it does not need to be called on a conscious level to be. Like when you are driving a car, you end up not looking brakes because it has been stored as a process by your body (it is not Ni here but a more raw body accustom).

    Because I am like you, I hate when people give conceptual stuff and does not illustrate, I will just tell you how I come to this text. In fact : I do not really know HOW but I know what triggered it. I was taking a lot and lot of data, reading forums quite passively, jumping from post to another. I discarded very fast pieces of data which I did not find relevant and kept only I valued (in fact, this sorting part is also unconscious, I do not really know what I keep. You know why ? Because I use mainly Te to sort it. Come back to my model : here, Te process data from exterior to exterior so it is VOLATILE ==> I do not remember it at all in this context).
    Then, I found myself somewhat overwhelmed with a huge headache, figuring out meaning was my main goal. But I failed because I would say that saturating an external perceiveing function is the best way to halt introverted perceiving process.
    I therefore go to a rollecoster twice and BAM it pops out of my head. It was more a conclusion, at the same time a STRONG one (strong in meaning for me) and a WEAK one (in term of judging evaluation). I am just using my Te to give you all this and in fact all the analogies I tell here are very fast. I do not know where they come from but probably from my values.

    You want me go to the point ? Ok, here it is :

    Ni is like Ne in the internal sphere. It is in fact its mirrored image (reversed) because it is convergent. Why convergent ? Because SELF is ONE and EXTERNAL is MULTIPLE/CONTEXTUAL. Ni sees stored DATA (again, data is in a translated form, the one understood by our brain faster than words which are an attempt to singularize multiplicity of life) and infer a connexion our conscious brain may need. Ne in contrast exhibits the process hidden in Ni applied to external world.

    What kind of data does Ni provide ? Intuition provides a VECTOR while Sensing provides a POINT (or a DISC if you want). A vector can materialize as a cause/effect link, etc.

    When you ask an "absurd" question to a Ne dom, he will answer immediately, going with the flow of absurdity.
    The Ni dom will ask: "What do you mean? What is the point?" and be stuck without an answer until it all make enough sense to elaborate one.
    That represents well my point.
    Ne points out candidate vectors from external world (world is the set of ALL minus SELF) while using it as a reference. I therefore flourish from external data like this.
    Ni will require translation to call inner self (which is a costly operation) and refers to INNER SET OF MEANING like judging functions. I filters out ideas before taking it in the MEANING framework. While some people can mistake "it makes no sense" as manifestation of Ti, I will say it depends of the inner essence of rejection. Logical or "meaning" ?

    When I ask my girlfriend (I love ask things like that I don't know why and I don't know what I do from answer in fact, it certainly goes internally to Ni) "do you prefer John of teddy bear ?", she tells me "it is not comparable" in terms of logic quickly. If someone tells "science proves religion wrong", I tend to be triggered in my deeper life painting (because I value science but hate people proclaming it holds truth as a a kind of totalyutary system of thinking). The first time I encoutered this, again it took me time but I had a Ni in action giving me this : religion and science are not same objects in their essence, the first is directed toward meaning of causes and the second to consequences. It is here a refined version of it but it ame first as a comprehensive language to me, like "religion is directed toward left, against cause/effect process and science towards right). You might say it is Ti product but I will argue to the contrary :

    - first, I did not really think about that BEFORE in that fashion at all, I just had QUALITY data for the two topics I like, especially from an astrophysicist and I did not come to this conclusion after a conscious thinking
    - secondly, the incompatibility lies more iin meaning than logic, here Ni gave me FUNDAMENTAL distinction between essences (or persona of the objects, not directly objects), it was not a judgement as first but it became because my Te was very excited to put it into common vocabulary

    So here is my insight, does not know if I have clarified in a proper wording. Actually I am French.

  3. #913
    Junior Member John Gaboury's Avatar
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    Jung gives a short description of an Ni dominant type (I think with Te auxiliary) working at his best, in his Collected Works Volume 7 pp67-69 pars 106 ff.

    Jung quotes Mayer's own enchanting description of his experience -- in the middle of the nineteenth century, before Jung was even born. So there is no possibility that Mayer was into type.

    Mayer was virtually oblivious to all the external stimuli of exotic Indonesia while completely inspired by his interest in proving the law of conservation of energy.

    Robert Mayer on Wikipedia Julius von Mayer - Wikipedia

    His achievements were not recognized for decades.

  4. #914
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Good Lord, @FoulcherDeChartres you are an extreme example of INTJ.
    It's entirely possible and realistic to live your life in such a way that you don't accidentally rape people. ME
    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. FEYNMAN
    If this is monkey pee, you're on your own.SCULLY
    You have to let the metaphysical guy chase you. ABIGAIL

  5. #915
    The Grand Guacamole Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Gaboury View Post
    Jung gives a short description of an Ni dominant type (I think with Te auxiliary) working at his best, in his Collected Works Volume 7 pp67-69 pars 106 ff.

    Jung quotes Mayer's own enchanting description of his experience -- in the middle of the nineteenth century, before Jung was even born. So there is no possibility that Mayer was into type.

    Mayer was virtually oblivious to all the external stimuli of exotic Indonesia while completely inspired by his interest in proving the law of conservation of energy.

    Robert Mayer on Wikipedia Julius von Mayer - Wikipedia

    His achievements were not recognized for decades.
    could that just be iNtuition in general, though? I'm a pretty strong percoever and I'm usually more attentive to whatever idea I'm playing with than what is around me.
    In Avocados We Trust
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  6. #916
    Junior Member John Gaboury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wailing Specter View Post
    could that just be iNtuition in general, though? I'm a pretty strong percoever [perceiver] and I'm usually more attentive to whatever idea I'm playing with than what is around me.
    Hi "The Wailing Specter." Yes, excellent point. Actually, I believe that the abstract use of any of the eight differentiating attitude-functions (Ne Ni Se etc.) shuts out the "noise" of competing stimuli for whatever duration it is so operating.

    I will try to make myself a bit clearer.

    For me, the key and only significant difference between the introverted and extraverted attitude is the source of motivation. So, for example, Ni gets its initial push from something bubbling up inside. Ne, on the other hand gets its initial spark from something outside more or less asking for new insight. Otherwise, Ne and Ni are both seeking inspiration for a new integrating insight.

    Relating this to Mayer, his motivation, according to Jung, sprang from within, from the activation of an archetype. Helm, whom Jung quotes, describes Mayer's new idea as arising in another realm of a spiritual nature, definitely not from knowledge of contemporary physics.

    Anyway, that's kind of the gist of my identifying Mayer as INTJ. Seems high probability to me. Could easily be wrong, but that is my conclusion. Reserve the right to change it, though certitude being shattered is painful.

  7. #917
    Junior Member John Gaboury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wailing Specter View Post
    could that just be iNtuition in general, though? I'm a pretty strong percoever and I'm usually more attentive to whatever idea I'm playing with than what is around me.
    Hi "The Wailing Specter." Yes, excellent point and you are a very strong perceiver (percoever, whatever).

    Actually, I believe that the abstract use of any of the eight differentiating attitude-functions (Ne Ni Se etc.) shuts out the "noise" of competing stimuli for whatever duration it is so operating. I will try to make myself a bit clearer.

    For me, the key and only significant difference between the introverted and extraverted attitude is the source of motivation. So, for example, Ni (or Si Fi Ti)gets its initial push from something bubbling up inside oneself. Ne (or Se Fe Te), on the other hand gets its initial spark from something outside more or less asking for new insight. Otherwise, Ne and Ni are both seeking inspiration for a new integrating insight.

    Relating this to Mayer, his motivation, according to Jung, sprang from within, from the activation of an archetype. Helm, whom Jung quotes, describes Mayer's new idea as arising in another realm of a spiritual nature, definitely not from knowledge of contemporary physics.

    Anyway, that's kind of the gist of my identifying Mayer as INTJ. Seems high probability to me. Could easily be wrong, but that is my conclusion. Reserve the right to change it, though certitude being shattered is painful.

    Does your Ne get this kind of gripping inspiration that possesses you for months, years, sometimes even decades on end?

  8. #918
    Junior Member John Gaboury's Avatar
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    Hi "The Wailing Specter." Yes, excellent point and you are a very strong perceiver (percoever, whatever).

    Actually, I believe that the abstract use of any of the eight differentiating attitude-functions (Ne Ni Se etc.) shuts out the "noise" of competing stimuli for whatever duration it is so operating. I will try to make myself a bit clearer.

    For me, the key and only significant difference between the introverted and extraverted attitude is the source of motivation. So, for example, Ni (or Si Fi Ti) gets its initial push from something bubbling up inside oneself. Ne (or Se Fe Te), on the other hand gets its initial spark from something outside more or less asking for new insight. Otherwise, Ne and Ni are both seeking inspiration for a new integrating insight.

    Relating this to Mayer, his motivation, according to Jung, sprang from within, from the activation of an archetype. Helm, whom Jung quotes, describes Mayer's new idea as arising in another realm of a spiritual nature, definitely not from knowledge of contemporary physics.

    Anyway, that's kind of the gist of my identifying Mayer as INTJ. Seems high probability to me. Could easily be wrong, but that is my conclusion. Reserve the right to change it, though certitude being shattered is painful.

    Does your Ne get this kind of gripping inspiration that possesses you for months, years, sometimes even decades on end?
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  9. #919
    The Grand Guacamole Avocado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Gaboury View Post
    Hi "The Wailing Specter." Yes, excellent point and you are a very strong perceiver (percoever, whatever).

    Actually, I believe that the abstract use of any of the eight differentiating attitude-functions (Ne Ni Se etc.) shuts out the "noise" of competing stimuli for whatever duration it is so operating. I will try to make myself a bit clearer.

    For me, the key and only significant difference between the introverted and extraverted attitude is the source of motivation. So, for example, Ni (or Si Fi Ti) gets its initial push from something bubbling up inside oneself. Ne (or Se Fe Te), on the other hand gets its initial spark from something outside more or less asking for new insight. Otherwise, Ne and Ni are both seeking inspiration for a new integrating insight.

    Relating this to Mayer, his motivation, according to Jung, sprang from within, from the activation of an archetype. Helm, whom Jung quotes, describes Mayer's new idea as arising in another realm of a spiritual nature, definitely not from knowledge of contemporary physics.

    Anyway, that's kind of the gist of my identifying Mayer as INTJ. Seems high probability to me. Could easily be wrong, but that is my conclusion. Reserve the right to change it, though certitude being shattered is painful.

    Does your Ne get this kind of gripping inspiration that possesses you for months, years, sometimes even decades on end?
    Yes. Sometimes I fall in love with an idea or problem, and I will explore that issue from every direction until I either solve it or get bored with it. I always have some idea that transfixes me at any given moment, and I tend to cycle through a handful of them.
    In Avocados We Trust

  10. #920
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    Ni is the opposite of Se. It doesn't need conscious confirmation from, nor does it consciously bounce off of concrete reality...(unless the Ni user consciously seeks to process it through an external function.) It isn't a requirement that the Ni user be focused on one singular theory, person, or thing.. When Ni gets like that, it goes into "crank" mode where it's obsessed, so to speak.

    We might "pick up on" someone's vibes and say their intentions are such and such.. The "Vibe" is another word for "Our perception that arrests us." This doesn't mean we are right but our perceptions unconsciously puts different ques together based on patterns of behaviors we've subconsciously picked up surrounding the person, via inferior Se.. and it makes us believe in our "intuition." (Perception.)

    Basically, instead of being guided by logical or feeler type ethics, Ni users are guided by their perceptions of how things appear to be to them, caused by underlying patterns, picked up and put together by unconscious Se ques. Ni users can see potential too but it appears to the Ni dominant as one potential rather than a billion possibilities.. because the Ni user's subconscious picks up on things with Se and brainstorms there in the subconscious, often hidden from the Ni user .. So, the perception is presented to the Ni user as a whole/gospel truth instead of possibilities... and causes the Ni user to seem "prophetic" or rigid in their perception.. (or jumping to conclusions)..

    If Ni users learn to realize that their perceptions aren't "always right" (..shying away from declarations such as: "I knew that person was a snake!") .. we can become more open .. and don't come across as crazy false prophets without back up for our claims.. I still struggle with this. Ni feels like you're hit with a valid truth that you can't prove. Even my perspective on the sky, Moon, music that I hear..etc.. It is interpreted in what most would call a bizarre manner if they were me for a day. (I'm also a music creator and have been creating songs since 2007 based on my odd views of life..)

    How I use Ni + Fe while with people..: I immediately walk into a new school seeing a guy bullying someone and somehow, I know that person is probably insecure, hates themselves, and is most likely bullied at home, abused or were bullied in their lifetime... and wants to just be accepted for who they are.. It's not that I have to be right about all of this upon looking at someone for a few minutes but I really think and feel that it is the gospel. (Eek!)

    If you ever catch me in an argument, which I can't stand: Most of my arguments shoot to the root of the person right off hand. For instance: If a girl has been posting indirect insults at me every time I posted a new photo of myself, I may not realize it but I am subconsciously taking note. If she starts wearing clothes I wear, while claiming to dislike me.. I subconsciously am taking note.. However, these subconscious "notes" present themselves to me, not as notes but as "She's jealous of you." ...Like that.. Most of the time for me, when I proclaim things, I have empirical facts to back up my arguments but that only comes AFTER the seemingly "psychic" conclusion. For all we know, she could be doing that to pick with me and make me react but my Ni presents the many ques picked up from Se as a whole and so I believe I am right. Depending on how nice I am being, I decide not to post pictures of myself so she won't feel so bad/insecure because I have compassion here and there for my enemies. If I'm getting tired and feeling catty, I might start posting photos on purpose to provoke the negative, insecure feelings I believe to be inside of her. (Because I know it will piss her off based on my perspective of her being insecure and jealous.)

    ^ That's just an example of how it works. It is mostly used in good ways when it comes to normal relationships. I follow my intuition where it can benefit my friends and family for the better. (Mostly I am using Fe with it.) You might pick up that someone is too embarrassed to kick a ball based on several ques they've put out, so you do something to "save" them from kicking the ball so that they will feel better or not feel as bad about it.

    My Ni works like that.. and I do my best to keep it in check. The only place I can't is with people view a certain way. (This is the most difficult to explain.) I don't fall in "love" like the normal person nor do I think "love" is of this reality. (But of a perceptive nature.. often one we can't help.) My perception of others controls the way I feel about them. I don't like ugly, cute, buff, or weak looking guys. Sometimes, that's not taken into consideration. The way I view them, no matter how they look, what they say or what they do, makes me a sucker. Yet, if they tried to do anything to dismantle my perception with an alternate reality, I end up running. So that's very unhealthy for me. I get trapped in my perspective of people's "energy" so to speak.. the energy probably doesn't even exist but my perspective makes it seem as though it does. My Ni has me in a headlock most of the time when it comes to liking people, period... and so, I might not even really like the person for who they are.. but more so with how my perception presents them to me as. It's not for who they could or might be.. It's who I view them as and I don't want to go beyond my own reality.

    I've dated a few people but I'm a complicated person because the only folks who understand my type of romantic style are those on spiritual/twinflame/soulmate forums. Though I don't believe in twin flames, anymore.. my perception presents some people as a "connection." I can only explain it through Te, that is might be from a past life. (Theosophy) but no matter what, I am still caught in a headlock over such individuals.
    The future's... made of...

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