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  1. #891
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    @uumlau you lost me at your last paragraph. What is the "that" you're referring to? Also are you saying that Ni is simply just a cognitive function that only just explains things abstractly with ease?
    Explains? No it sucks at explaining.

    It's great at ABSTRACTING.

    "Abstracting" is the "that" I'm referring to.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

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  2. #892
    I decay Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Explains? No it sucks at explaining.

    It's great at ABSTRACTING.

    "Abstracting" is the "that" I'm referring to.
    Ah okay. I agree there hahaha

  3. #893
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Look at the original roots of the words introverted and extroverted.

    The reason Ni is often so misunderstood is because it's usually misapplied to the realm that Ne occurs in, but Ni is in the internal realm. It's intuition introverted. Jung called it the subject. So people actually do know its definition. What they're still wanting are the right examples, but examples won't tell you the real definition or essence of it--they break away from the fundamental cognition of what it simply means. The definition of Ni is as follows:

    Ni is grasping the essence of things in thought. It focuses on the big picture while turning inward, while intro-verting. Ni types are not great at grasping the essence and nature of things going on around them, they don't have insight about reading the external situation like Ne types do. Ne on the other hand, grasps the underlying essence of things happening in the outside situation, the nature and big picture of what's occurring and being seen in the moment. This is why we ultimately use multiple functions, and this is where the confusion comes from. Similarly with Ti, we grasp the logic and rationale behind things in thought, in inward reflection and contemplation, while with Te, we grasp the logic and rationale of things as they happen in action and order, as we work with and utilize them. They're the same function "Logic," just applied to turning our mind either inwardly, or turning our mind outwardly towards things in their external form as they're happening. This is especially how Jung and the Socionicists recognize the functions. Ni is intuition of greater thoughts and insights about the big picture, while Ne attunes to the big picture of what's happening with external stimuli--it spots opportunities and potential, and intuitively grasps what's really happening behind a situation or moment, just like Se has a literal take on what's happening in a situation. We use multiple of these functions, but we tend to be most fluent in the one we prefer that type of information of that realm in, Introversion or Extroversion, and typically for instance, Ni types aren't usually that great with Ne, and Ne types aren't usually that great with focusing in on Ni (but it differs from person-to-person.) Ultimately Ni is attuned to a different topic and wavelength than Ne, and that is why it's a wholly separate function of cognitive proficiency. It does not reach out and perceive the outside with instinct, sharpness and ingenuity like Ne, but submerges deeply into visions and reflections of universal truths. Your most fluent function usually becomes most apparent to you when you either enter into deep thought (if you're an introvert), or when you enter into extroverted stimulation (if you're an extrovert.) In fact this is the best way to determine your primary function, if you're at all confused or think you use multiple functions, which ultimately we all do.

    Another exemplary way of determining your primary function is to review your consistent test results. Intuitive primary types usually score the highest in intuition and are typically well-balanced in thinking and feeling, while other types, like thinkers, score their T much higher than other dichotomies. This emphasizes and suggests what their primary nature is focused on. One good example for consideration is the difference between the INxJ vs the INTP, because both these types introvert, they both go frequently into the internal realm of thought. One however, the Ni, is primarily submerged in thinking about the nature and main idea behind things, the generalities of life, while the other, the Ti, is primarily submerged in pondering the logic, rationale and workings behind things. It's a big difference. Neither Ni or Ti can view the nature or rationale of things as they're occurring outside, in real life. They think about them. This is what all introverts do, all the time. If you are properly discerning, it should start to click which function you yourself primarily attune to, and which of them you mostly attune outwardly with. While we use all the functions, your primary function is your inherent cognitive nature, it is something that purely cannot be disguised or reworded into something other than what it just is, for you. It is something you know principally above all, because it's the primary way you think about things.

    If you're adhering mostly to a strict typology of preferences such as Keirsey Temperament Sorter, like J vs P, where J's intuition converges to a single decisive viewpoint, and P's intuition is open to possibilities, you're not going to be able to accurately grasp type via functions as they occur in individuals realistically. You may be utilizing a function other than the function your strict dichotomal type awards you. This is why newer theories like JCF in MBTI, and Socionics, have gained richer grounds in understanding peoples' real cognitive nature.

    The extroverted realm vs the introverted realm: Extroverted functions deal with information as it comes in, while introverted functions deal with the cycle of thought.
    Interesting way of looking at it.

    I had been trying to stick to with defining the attitudes in terms of “individual” vs “objects” or “environment”, which I see with iNtuition, still leaves things a bit ambiguous. The problem is that in every process we're both referencing both external objects and internal impressions. And the functions work in tandem; Ni with Se and Ne with Si. So it's hard to tell which is really internal or external a lot of times. And both forms of iNtuition “fill in” data with inferences of “where it's heading”.

    But perhaps those tandems, as named by Berens and Montoya, are the key. Ni reaches awareness as sudden “realizations”, while Ne has to “inquire” to make its inferences of other objects. (Even if this may appear as a sudden realization). On the S side, Se also naturally works through automatic “realizations” of whatever is before you, of course, while Si has to inquire its “storehouse” of tangible reality to filter current data through.
    So both will look at an object and fill in its “possibilities” or “patterns” of, where it appears to be “going”, or “could” go. Ne will be more “open” and reference other patterns, while Ni will simply perceive “yes” or “no” (that is what I considered the elemental product of perception, where judgment is “right” or “wrong”) from an inner impression (that is not as tangibly focused as the inner “sense” of Si).

    N=time orientation
    Ne: I can see it's possible paths by comparing similar objects
    Ni: I can see it's possible paths by going on a “gut” feeling or internal images (often omitted)
    Se: it doesn't matter where it came from or is going; it's just there
    Si: it doesn't matter where it could go, I've seen where it is
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  4. #894
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    There's an 80 year old lady I know a little who seems to be almost pure Ni based on Jung's descriptions. She was telling me how at different junctures in her life she just knew one chapter had ended. She had been a painter for years and quite skilled, but she said one morning after her divorce she woke up and knew that chapter of her life was over and she never painted again. Then she moved onto music and always had an inner voice directing her where to go and what to do next. She traveled the world to study with guru's and a lot of teachers who could be described as New Age. She never had a credentialed career, but moved intuitively through the subjective speculative realms. I suppose you could suggest Ne for her because she took in a lot of external information, but that inner directed voice of certainty is what she based her life and decisions on. She sounded to me a lot like Jung's description of the woman who had a metaphorical "black snake in her abdomen and needed eight session to get rid of it". That internal intuitive certitude is how Jung described Ni, and so this lady aligns with that.

    However, she also mentioned that she never plans for the future. It is that very inner voice that makes it unnecessary to plan in a judgement based manner. I realize that being future oriented is fundamental to Ni, so it is confusing to me to meet someone who matches the description so closely and yet it is exactly because she matches the description that she doesn't need to plan for the future. Is there an inherent dichotomy in the assumptions of Ni? You have an inner voice that leads you but you also plan for the future? Or does inner intuition negate a need to plan? It's actually a bit confusing if you look at it too closely. Can anyone help clarify?
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  5. #895
    Cyber Strider Korvinagor's Avatar
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    Introverted intuition is certainly very weird and strange (this can be said for all the introverted functions of course, by virtue of them being internal). I'll give it my best shot though.

    If we compare introverted intuition to introverted sensing, they are rather similar in function. Both act as the lens in which a person sees the world. Both are subjective in nature, leading Si and Ni users to all have a very personal way of seeing the world. The way in which this lens is acquired however, differs slightly. For introverted sensing, it comes from past experiences and consequences. For introverted intuition, it comes from the extrapolation of current events. The introverted sensate will draw upon the impressions that their experiences and consequences bring them. Conversely, introverted intuition generalizes such memories down to their basic components.

    I suppose Ni is 'mysterious' in that its perceptions appear almost completely cerebral in nature. Hopefully I caught the gist of this function.

    Thank-you @Forever, for pointing out my inaccuracies. I think my rectified post better expresses introverted intuition now.
    Last edited by Korvinagor; 01-11-2017 at 01:42 AM.

  6. #896
    Senior Member Fun in the Sun's Avatar
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    Non-verbal, inner visions is as close as I can get to describing it.
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  7. #897
    I decay Forever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korvinagor View Post
    Introverted intuition is certainly very weird and strange (this can be said for all the introverted functions of course, by virtue of them being internal). I'll give it my best shot though.

    If we compare introverted intuition to introverted sensing, they are rather similar in function. Both act as the lens in which a person sees the world. Both are subjective in nature, leading Si and Ni users to all have a very personal way of seeing the world. The way in which this lens is acquired however, differs slightly. For introverted sensing, it comes from past experiences and consequences. For introverted intuition, it comes from the extrapolation of current events.

    I suppose Ni is 'mysterious' in that its perceptions appear almost completely cerebral in nature. Hopefully I caught the gist of this function.
    Not exactly, (pointed to the bold) Si's description equally applies to both function. The difference is that Si focuses on the sensation of the event whereas Ni will remember the gist of the event. So both types use past experience and consequences in totally different ways.

    Some people also miss that Ni seems mysterious because they can cross contextualize an actual issue out of an event remembered stored in their head with the current event making them seem like the information had to be divine. It's really not. Once you guess what happens inside, it's just rapid pattern attribution and application.
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  8. #898
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    I tend to think of my Si as a collection of images or more accurately, perceptions that I have of a place, memory, sensation, whatever. And those perceptions are compounded on one another to create this inner continuum of what something is, a sort of timeline. Sometimes I get tripped up though when a past idea of something as I understood it, turns out to be different, and I feel I have to start over from scratch, and my world view of that experience must be reorganized. This happens because since I constantly jump around from idea to idea, the only way for anything to have any sort of stability is to assume that some things are constant, including my perceptions of things. When I revisit a place or idea, and it turns out to leave a different impression, it feels like what I knew of it before, is no longer contingent to my current world view. It's a rather unsettling experience when that happens too. Since Ni is sometimes described as inner visions, how would one suggest it differs from my perception of Si? I understand the two Pi functions share much common ground as does say, Ne and Se so I'm sure there is overlap. Well perhaps, what I am tapping into IS Ni?? I've always just tied this to my Si but I'm not sure.

    @Coriolis, @uumlau, any thoughts?
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  9. #899
    Seeking Rainbows Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiastic_Dreamer View Post
    I tend to think of my Si as a collection of images or more accurately, perceptions that I have of a place, memory, sensation, whatever. And those perceptions are compounded on one another to create this inner continuum of what something is, a sort of timeline. Sometimes I get tripped up though when a past idea of something as I understood it, turns out to be different, and I feel I have to start over from scratch, and my world view of that experience must be reorganized. This happens because since I constantly jump around from idea to idea, the only way for anything to have any sort of stability is to assume that some things are constant, including my perceptions of things. When I revisit a place or idea, and it turns out to leave a different impression, it feels like what I knew of it before, is no longer contingent to my current world view. It's a rather unsettling experience when that happens too. Since Ni is sometimes described as inner visions, how would one suggest it differs from my perception of Si? I understand the two Pi functions share much common ground as does say, Ne and Se so I'm sure there is overlap. Well perhaps, what I am tapping into IS Ni?? I've always just tied this to my Si but I'm not sure.

    @Coriolis, @uumlau, any thoughts?
    How tangible are the images in your Si collection - by that I mean: are their contents based on the 5 senses (you remember actual sights, sounds, smells, etc.)? If so, this is a significant difference from how at least I experience Ni.

    Also, how do you feel when you turn to this repository or timeline for the stability you seek (assuming you find it, and the memories are not discordant with present reality)? Is it comforting? Do you enjoy it? Do you ever look into these memories just for fun or to reminisce, rather than out of that need for stability? I cannot answer "yes" to most of these. I do look readily to the past for facts (where's my punch recipe from last Christmas?), but as I have mentioned elsewhere, I don't turn to my personal continuum of images for much of anything else, and can find it unsettling to peruse it, whether the images align well with today or not.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #900
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How tangible are the images in your Si collection - by that I mean: are their contents based on the 5 senses (you remember actual sights, sounds, smells, etc.)? If so, this is a significant difference from how at least I experience Ni.

    Also, how do you feel when you turn to this repository or timeline for the stability you seek (assuming you find it, and the memories are not discordant with present reality)? Is it comforting? Do you enjoy it? Do you ever look into these memories just for fun or to reminisce, rather than out of that need for stability? I cannot answer "yes" to most of these. I do look readily to the past for facts (where's my punch recipe from last Christmas?), but as I have mentioned elsewhere, I don't turn to my personal continuum of images for much of anything else, and can find it unsettling to peruse it, whether the images align well with today or not.
    Mmm, I would say there is some personal attachment to the images, but nothing sensory based. If anything, I would say there is an emotional attachment left in these perceptions, whether positive or negative. When I have these unsettling moments, (I will give you an example of what exactly it's like for me and when I experience them), so the one that stood out to me in recent memory is when I went in for the job interview for my current job. The place was new, it was unfamiliar. I felt anxiety, tense, in that situation. I suppose you could say some sensations yes. But once I started working there and began familiarizing myself with the office, the environment which initially seemed foreign and left me feeling out of place, soon became a new "home" for me, a place of comfort with good friends and an overall positive environment. I think typically, this wouldn't unsettle anyone, but it's because that initial impression left such a strong experience for me, that even to this day, the initial and the current sentiment of the same place clash and it doesn't make much sense. I can logically make sense of it, but emotionally speaking, the stability is found in how I feel in a given situation, that shouldn't change, and yet it has.

    As I type this out...I'm thinking that perhaps what I speak of isn't even Si, but merely a new perspective on Fi and its reaches. I do have a collection of perceptions, they are rather foggy and not defined at all, but there is a personal attachment to those images. Perhaps this is a physical manifestation of Fi in its inner workings. Speaking of physical manifestations, I mentioned to a few members before that I have this spatial understanding of my emotions, like a literal place I could draw out for you. Interesting. Sorry, just sort of brainstorming and fueling my own thoughts as I type.
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